Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[D365]

Unless they split out the C2C and GA 720 orders?

Yep, it’ll be that. Even though the C2C order was a tag on to the GA one it still seems to have counted as an extra order.

I don’t see why the two would not be completely different orders. Two different ROSCOs for a start.

 

[43096]

Yep, it’ll be that. Even though the C2C order was a tag on to the GA one it still seems to have counted as an extra order.

Different owners, different procurement exercises. Just because they are the same class number doesn’t make them a tag on order.

 

[Wolfie]

I don’t see why the two would not be completely different orders. Two different ROSCOs for a start.

I wasn't aware of your last sentence. TY.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Alstom's problem at the point they took over Bombardier was that they had not been paid for a substantial part of the Aventra production, because of all the TOC acceptance issues, and cash flow was suffering as a result.
Part of the financial recovery plan was to resolve the acceptance problems with TOCs/Roscos.
Now production has finished, it would be interesting to know how much is still outstanding on the Aventra account (eg the slow 701/730 acceptance).
It can't help the wider viability of Derby if there is still a financial burden from the Aventra programme.

 

[Dan G]

Yes, if the Government had wanted to stop new diesel power, I guess East /West rail would have been electrified. I guess Didcot to Oxford may be, they have have remodelled the station, Bristol Parkway to Temple Meads is likely then just the route through Bath


I seem to recall Bombardier at the time, did not quote for diesel trains, and we're fully committed to electric and TfL...Maybe the Government message was "electric trains are the future". Now, I seem to think there was an option for extra 345s, although ideally that would surely be whilst they are building them

I think the cutting of the electrification programme by Grayling in 2017 did for the Aventra product line. Bombardier made a reasonable bet that electrification was the future and didn't build a new DMU or bimode.

All the talk now is of "Adessia". I think that's a "family" of trains and a member will be a rebranded Aventra. Alstom is only saying electric/battery/hydrogen, no word of a diesel genset for bimode operation, so hard to see it being a contender for 15x/16x replacement.

 

[Snow1964]

I think the cutting of the electrification programme by Grayling in 2017 did for the Aventra product line. Bombardier made a reasonable bet that electrification was the future and didn't build a new DMU or bimode.

All the talk now is of "Adessia". I think that's a "family" of trains and a member will be a rebranded Aventra. Alstom is only saying electric/battery/hydrogen, no word of a diesel genset for bimode operation, so hard to see it being a contender for 15x/16x replacement.

Adessia is more like a modular platform, there is no reason why the bodyshell couldn't be similar to the Aventra.

If it comes with different control systems, wiring looms and software that works and is standard to all Adessia then that seems big improvement.

There is a question if UK actually needs more pure diesel trains in next 15 years. It is true some have been built in recent years, but some could potentially be replaced by battery EMUs (eg West Midlands fleet). These (and 170s with 15-20 years life) could be cascaded to the fringes of the system where electrification is not on agenda in next 15 years. A proper national cascade might be better than lots of pure diesel trains under the wires for part of their journeys

Adessia commuter trains: The backbone of urban life

Alstom’s Adessia™ commuter transport solutions support urban ecosystems all over the world to grow sustainably, accommodate increasing numbers of commuters and alleviate traffic congestion. Building on its wealth of experience in delivering commuter train solutions, Alstom offers...

www.alstom.com

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The photos are deliberately vague, but Adessia looks to be an articulated design.
The UK has generally not welcomed articulated stock (although Greater Anglia and Merseyrail have adopted articulated fleets from Stadler).

 

[Wolfie]

Adessia is more like a modular platform, there is no reason why the bodyshell couldn't be similar to the Aventra.

If it comes with different control systems, wiring looms and software that works and is standard to all Adessia then that seems big improvement.

There is a question if UK actually needs more pure diesel trains in next 15 years. It is true some have been built in recent years, but some could potentially be replaced by battery EMUs (eg West Midlands fleet). These (and 170s with 15-20 years life) could be cascaded to the fringes of the system where electrification is not on agenda in next 15 years. A proper national cascade might be better than lots of pure diesel trains under the wires for part of their journeys

Adessia commuter trains: The backbone of urban life

Alstom’s Adessia™ commuter transport solutions support urban ecosystems all over the world to grow sustainably, accommodate increasing numbers of commuters and alleviate traffic congestion. Building on its wealth of experience in delivering commuter train solutions, Alstom offers...

www.alstom.com

That approach, while requiring a significant degree of centralised control, seems like eminently sensible.

One thing that they will have to be cautious of is DfT controlled operators phasing out diesels only for OA operators to take on that rolling stock. There will need to be legal restrictions on continuing diesel operations.

 

[JonathanH]

The UK has generally not welcomed articulated stock (although Greater Anglia and Merseyrail have adopted articulated fleets from Stadler).

Forum users appear to be clamouring for articulated stock in many threads because of the ability if provides for level boarding.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Forum users appear to be clamouring for articulated stock in many threads because of the ability if provides for level boarding.

It's a while back now, but I think (old) Alstom withdrew its bid for Thameslink stock (won by the Siemens 700) because Network Rail would not accept the articulated design.

 

[357]

Different owners, different procurement exercises. Just because they are the same class number doesn’t make them a tag on order.

A discount was given because the spec was almost identical and it would use the same production line as the GA units.

There were later modifications made to the spec however it was still part of the same production.

 

[wickham]

Mention above of Derby "being offered a 5 train" contract but want 10: If an order were placed today - just how long would it take before construction starts. If it were a follow on order for, say 345s, the drawings and designs all exist so it would be a fairly simple process, but all the bits need to be ordered from the "supply chain" and even steel needs to be obtained for the body shells - they don't have a pile of steel sitting there rusting "just in case". No, it would be several months, perhaps up to a year or two before any construction actually starts - and surely this is all too late ?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Mention above of Derby "being offered a 5 train" contract but want 10: If an order were placed today - just how long would it take before construction starts. If it were a follow on order for, say 345s, the drawings and designs all exist so it would be a fairly simple process, but all the bits need to be ordered from the "supply chain" and even steel needs to be obtained for the body shells - they don't have a pile of steel sitting there rusting "just in case". No, it would be several months, perhaps up to a year or two before any construction actually starts - and surely this is all too late ?

I agree. Given we now know production at Derby has completed (even if the units themselves are far from complete !). The only work left for Derby would be the "finishing" normally being done to new units at Worksop, Willesden and Ilford. There is the whole fleet of 730/2s that are presumably built but not yet "finished", none are in service yet just a bit of testing. I try not to think about the 701s.......

So could Derby be kept busy "finishing" the large number of incomplete units they built ?. For how long and how many staff etc ?.

As for the extra 345s. I think it depends how desperate TfL are to order them soon versus whether Alstom will be interested in less than ten units. Then it is the inevitable anyway.

Incidentally.
How normal is it for train production to involve assembly but then units being sent elsewhere for "finishing" ?. It seems quite involved work is being done outside of Derby judging by what I read on 710s. Should this "finishing" be viewed as fixing problems/faults not rectified at the main production site (Derby) ?.

 

[Energy]

I think the cutting of the electrification programme by Grayling in 2017 did for the Aventra product line. Bombardier made a reasonable bet that electrification was the future and didn't build a new DMU or bimode.

Not really, there are only 384 cars of 195s, 196s and 197s. 701s alone were 750 cars.

 

[Meerkat]

Does Alstom own the Derby site or is it on a long lease?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not really, there are only 384 cars of 195s, 196s and 197s. 701s alone were 750 cars.

Well those 384 cars would be 96 x 4-car units, 76.8 x 5-car units or 128 x 3-car units. Or combinations thereof. That would be a decent order. Seeing as the MD of Derby is boasting that 2,651 coaches were built over ten years then 384 cars is almost 18 months work.

On the other hand not all the routes those 195s, 196s and 197s would have been electrified - particularly true of the TfW 197s. Also many would have to be 2-car EMUs - how likely is it that a 2-car Aventra could be made !.

But electrification of the relevant parts of Manchester and Birmingham would have eliminated the orders for 195s and 196s I suspect. Furthermore Northern would not have ordered 331s from CAF if they had not ordered 195s.

I think it is easy to assume that thestalling of suburban (and a bit more) electrification opened the door for CAF. Otherwise possibly Stadler would have been left to mop up the rest with bi-mode units - instead a lot of diesel only 197s !.

 

[Energy]

Well those 384 cars would be 96 x 4-car units, 76.8 x 5-car units or 128 x 3-car units. Or combinations thereof. That would be a decent order. Seeing as the MD of Derby is boasting that 2,651 coaches were built over ten years then 384 cars is almost 18 months work.

384 cars were hardly killing the Aventra though.

On the other hand not all the routes those 195s, 196s and 197s would have been electrified - particularly true of the TfW 197s. Also many would have to be 2-car EMUs - how likely is it that a 2-car Aventra could be made !.

But electrification of the relevant parts of Manchester and Birmingham would have eliminated the orders for 195s and 196s I suspect. Furthermore Northern would not have ordered 331s from CAF if they had not ordered 195s.

196s and 197s maybe but Arriva was already concerned about Bombardier's ability to deliver the train on time while they had large orders of 710s and 345s.

 

[Trainman40083]

I agree. Given we now know production at Derby has completed (even if the units themselves are far from complete !). The only work left for Derby would be the "finishing" normally being done to new units at Worksop, Willesden and Ilford. There is the whole fleet of 730/2s that are presumably built but not yet "finished", none are in service yet just a bit of testing. I try not to think about the 701s.......

So could Derby be kept busy "finishing" the large number of incomplete units they built ?. For how long and how many staff etc ?.

As for the extra 345s. I think it depends how desperate TfL are to order them soon versus whether Alstom will be interested in less than ten units. Then it is the inevitable anyway.

Incidentally.
How normal is it for train production to involve assembly but then units being sent elsewhere for "finishing" ?. It seems quite involved work is being done outside of Derby judging by what I read on 710s. Should this "finishing" be viewed as fixing problems/faults not rectified at the main production site (Derby) ?.

I would say "finishing" did mean, fixing all the faults.

 

[Peter Sarf]

384 cars were hardly killing the Aventra though.

I think the 384 cars would have given Derby more chance of continuity. Not saying the Aventra platform would have been in production longer. But it would likely have been only a meagre proportion of the 384.

196s and 197s maybe but Arriva was already concerned about Bombardier's ability to deliver the train on time while they had large orders of 710s and 345s.

To be attractive the timescales required by the TOCs wanting DMUs would have to have been later. But by about two years ago TOCs would have noticed the quality issues others were having.

I really think Bombardier bit off more than they could chew BUT the alternative was to turn their back on a dwindling number of EMU requirements. As the governments plans are fairly meaningless. It is jam now in case there is no bread tomorrow.

I would say "finishing" did mean, fixing all the faults.

Perhaps Derby were throwing everything at banging out EMUs as fast as possible and keeping the space clear of clutter by sending units elsewhere for fault (finding ?) and fixing. But it cannot be very cost effective shipping EMUs back and forth as we have seen happen. But then I can see Derby needed all the space and manpower for the construction part come what may of quality.

I really wonder if Alstom realised what they were buying into by taking over Bombardier.

 

[Trainman40083]

I think the 384 cars would have given Derby more chance of continuity. Not saying the Aventra platform would have been in production longer. But it would likely have been only a meagre proportion of the 384.

To be attractive the timescales required by the TOCs wanting DMUs would have to have been later. But by about two years ago TOCs would have noticed the quality issues others were having.

I really think Bombardier bit off more than they could chew BUT the alternative was to turn their back on a dwindling number of EMU requirements. As the governments plans are fairly meaningless. It is jam now in case there is no bread tomorrow.

Perhaps Derby were throwing everything at banging out EMUs as fast as possible and keeping the space clear of clutter by sending units elsewhere for fault (finding ?) and fixing. But it cannot be very cost effective shipping EMUs back and forth as we have seen happen. But then I can see Derby needed all the space and manpower for the construction part come what may of quality.

I really wonder if Alstom realised what they were buying into by taking over Bombardier.

Your last comment. Can't have done. No storage room to store many units at Derby, so off they went shuttling to Worksop, Old Dalby, here there and everywhere with top and tail locos. There was a suggestion some units had a thousand faults. A few months of storage might add to that.

 

[Energy]

Perhaps Derby were throwing everything at banging out EMUs as fast as possible and keeping the space clear of clutter by sending units elsewhere for fault (finding ?) and fixing. But it cannot be very cost effective shipping EMUs back and forth as we have seen happen. But then I can see Derby needed all the space and manpower for the construction part come what may of quality.

Bombardier dropped off all QC under covid to get the units out the door which left some units (mostly 701s) riddled with faults.

 

[Snow1964]

Bombardier dropped off all QC under covid to get the units out the door which left some units (mostly 701s) riddled with faults.

But in a decently run factory, Quality Control would only pick up occasional faults, because simply wouldn't be many faults, as the assembly teams would be expected to do things properly first time and not expect someone else to fix their sloppy work.

 

[43096]

But in a decently run factory, Quality Control would only pick up occasional faults, because simply wouldn't be many faults, as the assembly teams would be expected to do things properly first time and not expect someone else to fix their sloppy work.

Quite right. It should be noted that other manufacturers of rail vehicles were also affected by Covid(!), but were still producing vehicles without any noticeable drop-off in quality (Siemens in München, for example).

If you're relying on quality control to pick up that number faults, then there is a massive management problem. Which explains why Bombardier became a basket case and ended up in Alstom's hands.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But in a decently run factory, Quality Control would only pick up occasional faults, because simply wouldn't be many faults, as the assembly teams would be expected to do things properly first time and not expect someone else to fix their sloppy work.

I have seen it before when too much productivity is required then things start to go wrong. As a person on the coal face there is a limit to how much you can complain. I can remember being told it is best to shut up and keep working while you have a job.

I think there was quite a large number of vehicles being produced per month so I wonder if this applied at Derby ?.

The looming sale of your employer is not known to produce good morale. Indeed the most able will leave first while vacancies elsewhere exist.

 

[Dan G]

Not really, there are only 384 cars of 195s, 196s and 197s. 701s alone were 750 cars.

Soon to be a lot more diesel-powered trains (hopefully DEMU and capable of conversion to bimode/EMU/BEMU; certainly that's what the tenders are specifying) ordered in the next few years to replace the 15x and 16x fleets of Northern and GWR. Turbostars after that; total somewhere north of 1,500 vehicles.

Diesel trains are coming up for replacement faster than the lines they are running on being electrified. The exception I can think of is the TPE 185s; what else is there? (Plus the wildcard of battery class 230s replacing a small number of 15x/16x on some GWR branchlines if the Greenford trial works.)

 

[najaB]

Don't manufacturers on the continent move completed or semi completed rail vehicles by road some of the time?

No doubt they do. But it's the answer as to why it's easier for us to buy rail vehicles made to our gauge built in EU factories than the other way around.

 

[Snow1964]

Bombardier dropped off all QC under covid to get the units out the door which left some units (mostly 701s) riddled with faults.

Clearly came back to haunt them as we know they have paid out hundreds of millions in liquidated damages for late delivery of trains.

eg
£84m in Corelinks accounts (in accounts note 3), to 31 Dec 2022, although some might have come from CAF for 196s
£178m in Rock Rail South West Accounts (in account note 2) to 31 Dec 2022

Probably another £120+m since 31 Dec 2022 which would take total for failing to deliver working trains to at least £500m. That's a big financial hole for Alstom to absorb

CORELINK RAIL INFRASTRUCTURE LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

CORELINK RAIL INFRASTRUCTURE LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[heroicglaedr]

Closure is now confirmed

Thousands of jobs to be lost from Derby train factory closure

Alstom points finger at transport secretary as work dries up for historic manufacturing plant

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[Meerkat]

Stadler fancy a new assembly plant?

 

[43096]

Stadler fancy a new assembly plant?

Not if they have any sense.