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Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

Gag Halfrunt

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For the continental regional / commuter marare alloweket Alstom therefore needs:
a) a new name for a Europe wide non HS multi-mode EMU platform name

Alstom sold off the IP for the Coradia Polyvalent but not the Coradia brand, which is alive and kicking.


CAF are allowed to use the name "Coradia Polyvalent", perhaps because the trains are being built "in consortium with Alstom".


lots of Alstom has gone especially in the historic home turf of Alsace-Lorraine

Including the Reichshofften factory, which was bought by CAF along with the Polyvalent IP.
 
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hwl

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I had read elsewhere (sorry can't find link now) that the Adessia is basically a new family name.
Correct which also includes some current products.
The article suggested that Alstom want a standard modular software because unique software is delaying things and high risk, So seems it could easily be an Aventra bodyshells with different wiring loom and control process.
The hardware (loom control processes) isn't the issue but the Bombardier moving software to Bangalore
Sounds to me like intention is to go back to basics, design a go anywhere control system, have standard electronics, fit it in appropriate body for the market, move away from reinventing the wheel with variations to the software.
Alstom can do the software variations well unlike Bombardier (Rail).
Almost a tickbox of what options are fitted and physically connected. What I once heard described as Lego brick aproach, if you add some, rest of it shouldn't need altering.

After all in theory, regardless of it is 8car double deck TGV or a commuter train the principle requirements should be the same : power system; motors; braking; saloon climate control; doors; monitoring etc. Just the parameters change not the basic system.
That was largely the Bombardier philosophy which was let down but the software side
 

Wolfie

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That was largely the Bombardier philosophy which was let down but the software side
It's a well established design approach but the software is key in integration. Outsourcing that to likely the lowest bidder was a "brave" move.... Perhaps a sign of where Bombardier's finances were at....
 

hwl

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Alstom sold off the IP for the Coradia Polyvalent but not the Coradia brand, which is alive and kicking.

Which is why I said Coradia PV in the original post but you ignored that.
Polyvalent effectively translates as Multi-mode

for one ex Alstom France (Coradia PV, multi-mode EMU)

The divestment of the "Coradia Polyvalent" brand was a specific requirement (along with the IP) of the EU competition commissioner in approving the Alstom Bombardier merger.

Talent (3) is completely gone and Coradia partly gone so they need a new brand
 
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Wolfie

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Which is why I said Coradia PV in the original post but you ignored that.
Polyvalent effective translates as Multi-mode



The divestment of the "Coradia Polyvalent" brand was a specific requirement (along with the IP) of the EU competition commissioner in approving the Alstom Bombardier merger.

Talent (3) is completely gone and Coradia partly gone so they need a new brand
Coradia was pretty toxic in the UK in any event....

180s, to a lesser extent 175s initially....
 

hwl

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It's a well established design approach but the software is key in integration. Outsourcing that to likely the lowest bidder was a "brave" move.... Perhaps a sign of where Bombardier's finances were at....
"If it works in other industry's why can't it work in rail" :D except it often wasn't really working that well in other industries and they moved at just the point availability of skilled IT staff went down.

Even CAF prefer to have their key suppliers within day trip range

Alstom software is Eastern Europe.
 

43096

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In the case of Bombardier the Talent3 platform share a lot of technology and IP with Aventra (effectively its continental cousin).
Which might explain why the Aventra has been so poor, because Talent 3 has also been a disaster - most notably with ÖBB cancelling their Talent 3 order and going to Siemens instead.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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There was a debate in House of Lords yesterday on train manufacturing in UK, rather guarded answers, but linking the transcript

That debate just sums up everything that is wrong with this country. Perfectly reasonable questions asked but answers totally evaded and like the Commons the Speaker never calls anyone to account to actually answer the question.
 

YorkRailFan

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There was a debate in House of Lords yesterday on train manufacturing in UK, rather guarded answers, but linking the transcript

Even when pressed on the situation at Hitachi's Newton Aycliffe, the Lord simply responded with the same answer as he did with Alstom.
 

snowball

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Piece in the Guardian


“It’s strange at the moment: everywhere’s so quiet. It’s not good.” Mick Waldram has worked at Alstom’s sprawling train manufacturing plant on Litchurch Lane in Derby for 20 years, like his parents before him, and has watched in recent months as its six production lines have been gradually mothballed.

“I’ve been here 20 years and my brother’s been here 20 years as well,” Waldram says. “My mum was the managing director’s secretary, she was here 38 years, and my dad was a projects engineer who was here 36 years. We want to stay here. Me and my brother are not looking at leaving, we want to stay here if possible, do another 20 years.”

Talks with the transport secretary, Mark Harper, on Tuesday raised hopes that a new order for 10 trains on London’s crowded Elizabeth line would safeguard the future of manufacturing at this historic site, which started work in the 1840s.

But after months of gnawing uncertainty for the 1,300 manufacturing staff whose jobs are at risk, and with kit standing idle and suppliers shuttered, no one is taking anything for granted.

One contractor based at Litchurch Lane, Paintbox, went into administration last year when its work painting new carriages dried up – although some of its staff have been taken on by Alstom. Motherson, which did the wiring on the trains, pulled out of the site. Another Alstom supplier, Solo Rail Solutions, in Birmingham, which made the doors, appointed administrators earlier this month.

With rail woven deeply into Derby’s local economy as well as its heritage, the campaign to close the gap in Alstom’s order book has attracted the support of scores of local businesses – with the slogan displayed on a giant banner at Derby County’s Pride Park ground during last weekend’s match.

Football fan Luke Brame, who completed his apprenticeship at the site and has worked there for nine years, says he feels proud of his handiwork as he travels around to watch matches.

“I don’t think we’re there yet: if you read the wording from the government, there’s caveats in there, there’s get out of jail cards,” says Darren Spencer, a production manager at the site and a rep for the Unite union. “We’re by no means out of the woods yet.”

Harper said he had reached an “agreement in principle” with Alstom on the 10 trains, subject to value for money for the taxpayer, adding that he was confident “a solution is now in sight”.

He and the trains minister, Huw Merriman, have stressed the complexity of the issue. But the Labour MP and shadow transport secretary, Louise Haigh, says it could have been resolved long ago.

“Mark Harper has spent months claiming a deal to save jobs at Alstom was out of his hands. It is shameful that he has had to be dragged kicking and screaming under pressure from Labour, the industry and Unite, just to come back to the table,” Haigh said.

She added: “Ministers need to end this cycle of chaos on our railways and develop a consistent rail procurement strategy to give certainty to manufacturers.”

Unite has worked in an unusually close double act with senior management at Alstom, in an attempt to convince the government that while future projections for the rail industry are upbeat, Litchurch Lane faces a potentially unbridgeable gap in its order schedule.

Staff and managers feared that could lead to hundreds of jobs and decades of expertise being lost – and new contracts being fulfilled overseas.

The cost of the downturn in orders is already evident onsite, where hundreds of workers gathered to mark the last train rolling off the production line late last month. Some have already taken voluntary redundancy, with more due to leave in the coming weeks.

I've quoted about half of it.
 

yorksrob

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Derby is the only facility in the country with the capability to design and develop trains from scratch. As such it is a matter of national importance that it is saved.

The usual Establishment flannel about "markets" doesn't cut it.
 

Nym

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Derby is the only facility in the country with the capability to design and develop trains from scratch. As such it is a matter of national importance that it is saved.

The usual Establishment flannel about "markets" doesn't cut it.
How many times are we going to have this written when it’s been disproven in the thread…?
 

baza585

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Derby is the only facility in the country with the capability to design and develop trains from scratch. As such it is a matter of national importance that it is saved.

The usual Establishment flannel about "markets" doesn't cut it.
Why do trains need to be designed and developed from scratch?
 

BayPaul

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Ultimately the railway is there to safely, efficiently and comfortably move people (and goods) around the country, not to be a dumping ground for unwanted trains. It is sad that Derby is still at risk, especially for the employees, but ultimately they were the manufacturer of the disastrous Aventra. Purchasing policies should be based on getting well designed, reliable trains that are delivered on time, when they are actually needed, not about keeping a certain number of factories running in the UK.

Those who talk about a need to design and build trains mainly in the UK should remember that this would get fleets of Aventras and IETs, which are built at the factories with the most UK capabilities. Many would argue that Stadler and Siemens build trains far better suited for our needs, to a higher quality than companies who have a larger UK presence.
 

43066

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Those who talk about a need to design and build trains mainly in the UK should remember that this would get fleets of Aventras and IETs, which are built at the factories with the most UK capabilities.

The Aventras (which seem perfectly decent whenever I travel on them) and IETs were built to a spec, so it seems a little odd to blame the manufacturer for building what they were paid to. You might like to consider who specified them.
 

BayPaul

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The Aventras (which seem perfectly decent whenever I travel on them) and IETs were built to a spec, so it seems a little odd to blame the manufacturer for building what they were paid to. You might like to consider who specified them.
I'm more considering the massive delays in the programmes to be honest, and the significant numbers of build faults that both designs still have (e.g. Cracks and the myriad of technical issues that are part of what is keeping the 701s out of service).
 

RUK

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The Aventras (which seem perfectly decent whenever I travel on them) and IETs were built to a spec, so it seems a little odd to blame the manufacturer for building what they were paid to. You might like to consider who specified them.
Stadler offered the SMILE, which is like a faster FLIRT, for EMR, but EMR picked IETs instead.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I'm more considering the massive delays in the programmes to be honest, and the significant numbers of build faults that both designs still have (e.g. Cracks and the myriad of technical issues that are part of what is keeping the 701s out of service).
Theres no crack issues on Aventras they've afflicted CAF and IEPs
 

baza585

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Because we can build them to our requirements and not have to buy from abroad..
We specify the requirements and seek the best value for money offering, regardless of where it is built, surely.

Even Derby built trains have a lot of foreign content, and frankly the quality of some of their recent deliveries is questionable at least. I'm not sure keeping Derby open (and by implication closing other train factories in the UK) is the best long term strategy for the UK railway industry.

I'm all in favour of supporting UK industry but the product and quality has to be competitive.
 

BogiePicker

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Interesting. Presumably they would also have built it to the British gauge. Believe they did a bimode for the Saudis. Anywhere one can read further?
Stadler offered the SMILE, which is like a faster FLIRT, for EMR, but EMR picked IETs instead.
 

Invincible

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Piece in the Guardian




I've quoted about half of it.
If the order for the 10 Elizabeth line trains is confirmed – extending an existing contract – Alstom plans to restart production in Derby on a slimmed-down basis, with three or four production lines brought back into action, until work is due to start on 54 trains for HS2, in a year or so
Does look like a lot of voluntary redundancies due to the slimming down.
From the BBC website Keir Starmer has visited Derby and critical of the lack of Government planning.
The DfT has a statement, but not too positive.
A DfT spokesperson said: "The Transport Secretary recently had a constructive meeting with Alstom's leadership team, and we are now in a period of intensive discussions, to conclude no later than the end of May.
"While these talks are ongoing, the department will not be providing a running commentary on discussions with Alstom. It would be inappropriate to comment on specific commercial discussions."
 
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JonathanH

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From the BBC website Keir Starmer has visited Derby and critical of the lack of Government planning.
One of the bits quoted by the BBC says,
When asked if his leadership would be able to deliver a more consistent pipeline of orders, he said: "Yes, because we need a strategy for transport across the country on what we are building, where, in what order, and how do we make sure those order books are consistent."
Even if there were a consistent pipeline of orders, there is no guarantee that Derby would win the contracts. As noted above, none of the current angst would be an issue if Derby was building stock for Tyne & Wear or Docklands Light Railway, both of which are being constructed overseas. How would any political party legally frame the tenders such that they gave a smooth pipeline of work for Derby?

I look forward to seeing how a future government addresses the issue of sharing out orders and ensuring that there is a constant stream of work.
 

Blindtraveler

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Will in the current climate it would be much easier as they could simply say that stock must be fully constructed in the United Kingdom, I know that some of our manufacturing plants are simply finishing and fitting out body shells shipped in from elsewhere but this would quickly change if tender after tender was issued requiring complete build from scratch in this country which to be honest is what we should be doing anyway but that's a personal viewpoint
 

Energy

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but this would quickly change if tender after tender was issued requiring complete build from scratch in this country which to be honest is what we should be doing anyway but that's a personal viewpoint
What does built from scratch mean? The bodywork on Aventra is 4 aluminum extrusions made overseas and bolted together in Derby, the bogies are made in Siegen, Germany, and the traction motors and equipment come from Vasteras, Sweden.

Modern manufacturing has pieces made all around the world.
 

Dan G

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As part of A-B merger Alstom had to agree to divest certain plants, related IP (including product name rights) and assuming some key staff too.
This included some of a continental sister platform to Aventra but not Aventra hence the need for the new product family name and regenerating a product line from ex Bombardier technology heritage (i.e. from Aventra) as lots of countries and companies aren't particularly enamoured with Alstom designs / thinking.
Lots of ex-Alstom design and technology teams have gone in the streaming line over the last years with many ex Bombardier retained (with some deduplication)
My theory is Adessia is a renaming of Aventra; is that what you're saying?
 

Energy

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My theory is Adessia is a renaming of Aventra; is that what you're saying?
Adessia is a new platform that draws on features of the Aventra, like the Flexx Eco bogies, but will have been adapted to work across more countries and allow for varying floor heights.

Alstom often has more funky designs which can be unpopular in markets where a more traditional train is preferred, such as the Thameslink program.
 

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