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[Grumpy]

My local station on the Wharfedale line is normally unstaffed. Arriving back on a train from Leeds this afternoon the entrances were manned by uniformed ticket inspection staff. I was one of the first to the cordon, showed my ticket, and walked past. There were three staff, two men and a woman. I then noticed some raised voices and they were asking a biggish woman, early twenties, to show her ticket. She simply ignored them and brushed past despite repeated requests. I moved to block her exit, expecting them to come after her but they did nothing. I said to them that she clearly didn't have a ticket but they just shrugged and said something on the lines of "we'll report her". Which wouldn't be any good as they wouldn't know who she was.

What's the point of these staff if people can just ignore them? Don't they have any powers to stop and detain?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

My local station on the Wharfedale line is normally unstaffed. Arriving back on a train from Leeds this afternoon the entrances were manned by uniformed ticket inspection staff. I was one of the first to the cordon, showed my ticket, and walked past. There were three staff, two men and a woman. I then noticed some raised voices and they were asking a biggish woman, early twenties, to show her ticket. She simply ignored them and brushed past despite repeated requests. I moved to block her exit, expecting them to come after her but they did nothing. I said to them that she clearly didn't have a ticket but they just shrugged and said something on the lines of "we'll report her". Which wouldn't be any good as they wouldn't know who she was.

What's the point of these staff if people can just ignore them? Don't they have any powers to stop and detain?

I suspect the "point" of these people was actually an intelligence gathering exercise. Identify the blatant fare evaders, gather evidence of multiple offences and get a slam dunk conviction in court. No need for confrontation at the outset, let that happen in front of the magistrate.

 

[Andrew S]

I moved to block her exit

Why? Mind your own business.

 

[Geeves]

The reason they are there is a deterrent. They are not the police so they cannot arrest you or make you stay but most people are just conditioned to accept authority figures. The mere sight of these people is usually enough but if you have balls you can just carry on. They have no legal powers.

 

[mmh]

Another vigilante thread, sigh.

Don't do this stuff.

 

[Gems]

It was Carlisle security penalty fares team at Burley in Wharfedale. Quite amazed they left Leeds actually which seems to be their natural habitat these days.

Have they any power to detain?. In a word 'No' But this is the farce of penalty fares isn't it. It works for Northern when these gangstas target elderly passengers and children. Anyone brazen enough to ignore them and just wander off into the sunset are a different ballgame.
Intelligence gathering is a buzzword. Nothing happens, and I find the best form of attack against a fare dodger isn't to go through the official channels of trying to get details, but to simply sling them off. I have actually allowed some of the future prison fodder that thinks the world owes it a living to remain on the train a few stops. This ensures I can send it packing at a more deserted and difficult to get home from station further down the line.

But lets have a word about Burley in wharfedale. To those of you around the country who aren't familiar with this little backwater nestling under Ilkley moor. It is a town among'st other towns in the area that has a real problem with anti-social behaviour. It seems full of teenagers who seem to think the world owes it a living. Among'st the posh is the dross, and Burley has more than it's fair share of that crawling out of the sewers. You see gaggles of spotty teenagers trying to fare dodge from their refuge in Ilkley to Burley on a daily basis. No doubt if the state benefit system isn't keeping this shower in 'Primark replica prison issued grey tracksuits' it'll be mummy and daddy too busy financing the latest car to be bothered about what the offspring gets up to.

No I am not surprised at what the poster saw. But don't expect any staff to put their jobs on the line trying to prevent the loss of revenue from the TOC that doesn't care.

 

[LowLevel]

Same old problem, trying to shut the door when the horse has bolted - dealing with them at the station exit is difficult. Our lot now have uniformed police officers accompany station blocks to do the physical side for them. It's amazing how many thick scummy people with reasons not to want the police national computer entry against them checking don't bother buying a 2 quid rail ticket. Mutually beneficial for the police and the railway.

I find private contractor security staff on the railway a complete waste of time anyway. I've never had a single incident where they've done anything but make it worse either by hiding or by winding the parties involved up further. I either sort it myself or it's serious enough to involve the police.

 

[221129]

The reason they are there is a deterrent. They are not the police so they cannot arrest you or make you stay but most people are just conditioned to accept authority figures. The mere sight of these people is usually enough but if you have balls you can just carry on. They have no legal powers.

Try again...

 

[big all]

It's amazing how many thick scummy people with reasons not to want the police national computer entry against them checking don't bother buying a 2 quid rail ticket. Mutually beneficial for the police and the railway.

i assume this type off language is a moment off indisgresion or frustration as by its use you are bringing your level off argument to the same or perhaps lower than the level they are at
not buying a ticket or how they react does not dictate there level off intelligence there level or understanding or indeed there intent but your choice off words seems to suggest your thought process is rather clouded
now i dont ever think stealing is correct but i also think being fairly derogatory in a way not connected to the actual situation doesn't help things

 

[Grumpy]

It was Carlisle security penalty fares team at Burley in Wharfedale. Quite amazed they left Leeds actually which seems to be their natural habitat these days.

.

Thanks for that Gems. To be fair to the guard, he came through the train between Leeds and Guiseley and checked all the tickets, so I guess the woman got on at Guiseley. Taking LowLevel's comments, I cant understand why Northern don't have a uniformed police presence and do a proper job. Collar the scumbags and take them to court. A few people getting criminal records/fines/names in the press and word will soon go round.

Why? Mind your own business.

Why? Because it offends me that these scum dodge payment which means the rest of us have to pay more, and our public servants (which I take to include railwaymen) should be given support from the public. I almost had a word with a woman on the train whose child was walking on the seats, but to be fair to her she recognised this and made the child sit properly. Anti-social behaviour need challenging-the lowlifes get away with it because ordinary people have your attitude

 

[Mojo]

I suspect the "point" of these people was actually an intelligence gathering exercise. Identify the blatant fare evaders, gather evidence of multiple offences and get a slam dunk conviction in court. No need for confrontation at the outset, let that happen in front of the magistrate.

I doubt it. They are like ticket barriers; simply to put off chancers but do nothing against those seeking to cause an argument and blatant fare evaders.

 

[LowLevel]

i assume this type off language is a moment off indisgresion or frustration as by its use you are bringing your level off argument to the same or perhaps lower than the level they are at
not buying a ticket or how they react does not dictate there level off intelligence there level or understanding or indeed there intent but your choice off words seems to suggest your thought process is rather clouded
now i dont ever think stealing is correct but i also think being fairly derogatory in a way not connected to the actual situation doesn't help things

It's an internet forum. If everyone's exact form of words reflected their actual actions the world would be an extremely entertaining place. If you are both refusing to buy a train ticket and have an outstanding arrest warrant you're not likely to be very clever in coming to the attention of the authorities over a trivial matter and the balance of probability suggest you might not be a very nice person either.

However, allow me to plod along and justify my thought process with one of my usual real world examples...

Person A got a reputation over a few weeks for refusing to pay his fare and threatening train crew. One day having been prevented from physically assaulting a female guard the previous day by another passenger who threw him out of the train he was refused travel and deposited on to a platform. He then threatened the Network Rail crossing keeper and punched clean through a carriage window.

The police turned up, arrested him and found he was wanted for immigration offences, and in due course having been held in detention he was deported from the country.

The person is scum - his behaviour demonstrates this. He's also thick because he made a scene out of himself rather than keeping his head down.

That extreme a degree is unusual but people with outstanding warrants, transporting drugs etc getting picked up by the police because they've come to attention for refusing to pay a small rail fare are not unusual.

 

[whhistle]

Why? Mind your own business.

It's this sort of mentality that is the reason we have so much crime these days.
People too busy minding their own business instead of helping for the greater good.

 

[nuts & bolts]

i assume this type off language is a moment off indisgresion or frustration as by its use you are bringing your level off argument to the same or perhaps lower than the level they are at
not buying a ticket or how they react does not dictate there level off intelligence there level or understanding or indeed there intent but your choice off words seems to suggest your thought process is rather clouded
now i dont ever think stealing is correct but i also think being fairly derogatory in a way not connected to the actual situation doesn't help things

It's an internet forum. If everyone's exact form of words reflected their actual actions the world would be an extremely entertaining place. If you are both refusing to buy a train ticket and have an outstanding arrest warrant you're not likely to be very clever in coming to the attention of the authorities over a trivial matter and the balance of probability suggest you might not be a very nice person either.

However, allow me to plod along and justify my thought process with one of my usual real world examples...

Person A got a reputation over a few weeks for refusing to pay his fare and threatening train crew. One day having been prevented from physically assaulting a female guard the previous day by another passenger who threw him out of the train he was refused travel and deposited on to a platform. He then threatened the Network Rail crossing keeper and punched clean through a carriage window.

The police turned up, arrested him and found he was wanted for immigration offences, and in due course having been held in detention he was deported from the country.

The person is scum - his behaviour demonstrates this. He's also thick because he made a scene out of himself rather than keeping his head down.

That extreme a degree is unusual but people with outstanding warrants, transporting drugs etc getting picked up by the police because they've come to attention for refusing to pay a small rail fare are not unusual.

Unfortunately there are a few more like him out there

Also, 'Gems' a great nugget from up north

 

[Gems]

For those of you who don't deal with fare dodgers, you need to understand that you can actually put them into category's.

Let me explain.

1) Chancer.
These people make up the biggest group by far. They'll pay, but hope you won't find them before they get off. Very rarely confrontational because confrontation is not their motive. The motive is to save a few quid.
Problem with this group is that most have the ability to pay, but see it as a victimless crime. Usually the sort of person who would run crying to the police if they had their wallet or purse stolen, but cant quite make the connection between their criminal behaviour, and criminal behaviour directed at themselves.

2) Low educated.
This group make me smile. You see them waiting to board, looking down the platform at you to see if you will get to them in time. But because most are low intelligence they can't understand that you can think at a higher level than they can, and realise what they are up to. They might as well put a sign on their heads saying come and get me, and that is usually inevitably what happens. I go and get them. This group usually don't have much going for them. The type who if they broke into your house would leave a calling card.

3) The passive aggressive.
Ask them for a ticket and they will ignore you as if to say, "please go away and leave me alone". Again usually made up of the low intelligence type, but this group are possibly lower intelligence. Their behaviour ensures you don't leave them alone, and because they haven't got the social skills to communicate, (Hence their behaviour of ignoring you) it can lead to confrontation. Usually the next step up from passive aggressive is just plain old aggressive.

4) The gang
I love this type, but you do have to watch yourself. The group, usually teenagers who think swearing at you and acting hard will make you back away. When you don't I find their reactions hilarious, because they simply haven't got a clue how to raise themselves to the next level. It is like watching a video of football hooligans taunting each other in the street, Nobody ever wants to be the first to get stuck in, a bit like an invisible force field separates them. Trouble with the gang is that they feed off each other, so as soft as they may be, they will keep on using their mouths until their tongues drop off.

5) The no hope
Now as strange as it may seem, I actually have time for this group. They are going nowhere in life, usually been in prison and amazingly many are happy to admit it in front of you and half a dozen others. They have no shame, but having no shame strangely works in their favour, because you can end up feeling sorry for them. Many are quite polite. Seldom get anything from them but the sob story.

This is my 5 group. Anyone add to it?

 

[Mathew S]

I think it's interesting that, in the original example, revenue staff were there on their own. I've noticed a dramatic increase in the number of occasions I've had my ticket tlchecked passing through Wigan North Western this year (up from basically never to once or twice a week, I'd guess). Always, they are Northern branded rather than Virgin staff doing the checking, and invariably they are accompanied by a posse of BTP officers. Now, perhaps that says a lot about the calibre of passenger you get in Wigan, but I'm sure it discourages miscreants from chancing their arm in the way the OP describes if they know PC Plod is there to offer the necessary 'encouragement' to co-operate.

 

[big all]

It's an internet forum. If everyone's exact form of words reflected their actual actions the world would be an extremely entertaining place. If you are both refusing to buy a train ticket and have an outstanding arrest warrant you're not likely to be very clever in coming to the attention of the authorities over a trivial matter and the balance of probability suggest you might not be a very nice person either.

However, allow me to plod along and justify my thought process with one of my usual real world examples...

Person A got a reputation over a few weeks for refusing to pay his fare and threatening train crew. One day having been prevented from physically assaulting a female guard the previous day by another passenger who threw him out of the train he was refused travel and deposited on to a platform. He then threatened the Network Rail crossing keeper and punched clean through a carriage window.

The police turned up, arrested him and found he was wanted for immigration offences, and in due course having been held in detention he was deported from the country.

The person is scum - his behaviour demonstrates this. He's also thick because he made a scene out of himself rather than keeping his head down.

That extreme a degree is unusual but people with outstanding warrants, transporting drugs etc getting picked up by the police because they've come to attention for refusing to pay a small rail fare are not unusual.

well its fully up to you to use any words you like i just wonder why its deemed a good idea to let all your social skills drop whilst on the internet it just encourages the more easily led that violence and anger is the norm

 

[DarloRich]

For those of you who don't deal with fare dodgers, you need to understand that you can actually put them into category's.

Let me explain.

1) Chancer.
These people make up the biggest group by far. They'll pay, but hope you won't find them before they get off. Very rarely confrontational because confrontation is not their motive. The motive is to save a few quid.
Problem with this group is that most have the ability to pay, but see it as a victimless crime. Usually the sort of person who would run crying to the police if they had their wallet or purse stolen, but cant quite make the connection between their criminal behaviour, and criminal behaviour directed at themselves.

2) Low educated.
This group make me smile. You see them waiting to board, looking down the platform at you to see if you will get to them in time. But because most are low intelligence they can't understand that you can think at a higher level than they can, and realise what they are up to. They might as well put a sign on their heads saying come and get me, and that is usually inevitably what happens. I go and get them. This group usually don't have much going for them. The type who if they broke into your house would leave a calling card.

3) The passive aggressive.
Ask them for a ticket and they will ignore you as if to say, "please go away and leave me alone". Again usually made up of the low intelligence type, but this group are possibly lower intelligence. Their behaviour ensures you don't leave them alone, and because they haven't got the social skills to communicate, (Hence their behaviour of ignoring you) it can lead to confrontation. Usually the next step up from passive aggressive is just plain old aggressive.

4) The gang
I love this type, but you do have to watch yourself. The group, usually teenagers who think swearing at you and acting hard will make you back away. When you don't I find their reactions hilarious, because they simply haven't got a clue how to raise themselves to the next level. It is like watching a video of football hooligans taunting each other in the street, Nobody ever wants to be the first to get stuck in, a bit like an invisible force field separates them. Trouble with the gang is that they feed off each other, so as soft as they may be, they will keep on using their mouths until their tongues drop off.

5) The no hope
Now as strange as it may seem, I actually have time for this group. They are going nowhere in life, usually been in prison and amazingly many are happy to admit it in front of you and half a dozen others. They have no shame, but having no shame strangely works in their favour, because you can end up feeling sorry for them. Many are quite polite. Seldom get anything from them but the sob story.

This is my 5 group. Anyone add to it?

Genius! Love it!

 

[scrapy]

Usually these checks will take place by Carlisle security will take place without BTP. Carlisle have no authority to detain people for a fare evasion matter. It is likely that the woman the OP was talking about will be reported by Travel Incident Report form. This will include a description and possibly body cam footage. If she is a one off traveller she will probably get away with it. If she builds up a pattern it's likely on another inspection BTP may be present and may even be in plain clothes. If they witness an offense she will likely prosecuted and Northern would have her details for subsequent offences.

 

[6Gman]

i assume this type off language is a moment off indisgresion or frustration as by its use you are bringing your level off argument to the same or perhaps lower than the level they are at
not buying a ticket or how they react does not dictate there level off intelligence there level or understanding or indeed there intent but your choice off words seems to suggest your thought process is rather clouded
now i dont ever think stealing is correct but i also think being fairly derogatory in a way not connected to the actual situation doesn't help things

I think @LowLevel has got this about right. People who engage in (relatively) low-level crime, such as fare evasion, are often involved in more serious matters.

And getting yourself arrested for a serious offence by trying to dodge a £4 rail fare is ... well ... stupid!

 

[LowLevel]

I think @LowLevel has got this about right. People who engage in (relatively) low-level crime, such as fare evasion, are often involved in more serious matters.

And getting yourself arrested for a serious offence by trying to dodge a £4 rail fare is ... well ... stupid!

That's basically the shape of it. Apparently not referring to these people in respectful terms as if they're Raffles the Gentleman Thief shows a lack of social skills. So be it *shrug*

Not long ago I was working a late night train from City B to City A via City C calling at a lot of unmanned halts.

I encountered a man with no ticket. Not paying either. Travelling to the terminal, City A.

I responded in a calm manner that that was no issue, he would either get off at an unmanned halt in the middle of nowhere or the police who routinely attend the platform for that train at City C would be taking him off for a chat (last train of the night out of town).

He declared that he had no interest in seeing any police and pulled out a wad of money and I went about my business. I didn't have any other reason to suspect foul play so that was that.

 

[Randomer]

I appreciate that several other people have posted it but do Carlisle security as contractors to Northern not have the power to detain?

Section 5 (2) of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889

(2) If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

I appreciate that the policy of Northern and Carlisle is not to use the powers available under the act but it doesn't mean that they couldn't choose to do so in the future.

Unless I have missed something about a contracted person not counting as an officer or servant of the railway company?

 

[Mojo]

I appreciate that several other people have posted it but do Carlisle security as contractors to Northern not have the power to detain?

I appreciate that the policy of Northern and Carlisle is not to use the powers available under the act but it doesn't mean that they couldn't choose to do so in the future.

Unless I have missed something about a contracted person not counting as an officer or servant of the railway company?

You have hit the nail on the head, whilst that Act as well as the Railway Bylaws might empower staff to get hands on with customers, it will typically be the policy of the employer to advise their staff not to make use of these powers.

Contract staff will also be empowered to make use of these powers in law.

 

[Starmill]

What's the point of these staff if people can just ignore them?

As far as I am aware this is their company policy? If you're unhappy about Northern's company policy, my suggestion is that you write to their customer relations explaining why you're not happy and suggesting what you think they should do instead for cases such as the one you witnessed.

 

[njamescouk]

Why? Because it offends me that these scum dodge payment which means the rest of us have to pay more...

you could end all fare dodging tomorrow and fares would still increase.

 

[njamescouk]

For those of you who don't deal with fare dodgers, you need to understand that you can actually put them into category's

...

showing yourself in your true colours.

 

[LowLevel]

showing yourself in your true colours.

Oh please. She's spot on. If it offends your sensibilities just be thankful that CCTV, data recorders and no win no fee has ended the days of ex military and police guards and some others who were handy making unscheduled calls at disused or one train a day stations in the middle of nowhere to physically throw fare evaders off the train. Some of the things that used to go on even 15 years ago would no doubt have you choking with rage on your cornflakes.

Nowadays we can't touch them so we let off steam by having a rant now and then. No matter how hard you try to put yourself above them some of the regulars wind you up the wrong way.

It's a job at the end of the day. I go to work, I get paid to collect fares, I come home. I help people who are hard up all the time. I don't think of regular problems in friendly terms though because they make my life more difficult.

 

[Gems]

showing yourself in your true colours.

Do you mean showing experience over rose tinted spectacles.

 

[Stigy]

I find the best way of dealing with fare evaders is to treat them like an old friend, at least until I get what I want out of them (their name and address usually). They’re usually too stupid to realise that’s what’s going on and cooperate. I’ve seen time and time again people go in too hard and straight away have these peoples’ backs up.

Staff do have the power to detain for fare evasion, but it’s not something companies would ever endorse, and they’d certainly never train their staff to do it.

 

[Gems]

I find the best way of dealing with fare evaders is to treat them like an old friend, at least until I get what I want out of them (their name and address usually). They’re usually too stupid to realise that’s what’s going on and cooperate. I’ve seen time and time again people go in too hard and straight away have these peoples’ backs up.

Staff do have the power to detain for fare evasion, but it’s not something companies would ever endorse, and they’d certainly never train their staff to do it.

Yes you are right. They are too stupid to realise what is going on, hence my earlier post about putting them into category's. Most of these people can't think on a higher plain than what their brains are tuned into. May sound harsh to many on here, but reality can be harsh.