Powers Of Railway Security?

[Class195]

What actual rights do they have with regards a full train and grabbing passengers from the vestibule and forcing them off said full train and telling them that it is full and they must now wait for the next one (hourly service on the North Wales line) or wait for TFW to procure coaches for those who were left behind.


It all comes across as a bit OTT, despite the concerns of the guard working a packed three car 175.

Why aren’t these hourly services strengthened?

The security staff described above were not British Transport Police but ex nightclub door staff now being contracted work by Transport For Wales and just for clarity, this happened at Chester train station at midday witnessed by myself who was on the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They have the same powers as any other private security guard, which does extend to asking you to leave and using reasonable force if you fail to do so.

 

[Starmill]

Their vests say 'Helping with Social Distancing' or something similar to that. The staff on the Cambrian were provided by Silurian Security.

If a passenger were removed from a train despite having bought a valid ticket for it, the company would be acting unlawfully unless they could prove some offence was committed.

 

[Class195]

Their vests say 'Helping with Social Distancing' or something similar to that. The staff on the Cambrian were provided by Silurian Security.

But do they have the power to watch a train arrive into the train station and then when realising it’s full start grabbing people and removing them by force?

It all seems OTT and why didn’t the guard stop that many people boarding the train in the first place?

Surely if it’s not safe for the security staff, the train shouldn’t have left the previous station?

 

[Starmill]

They have the same powers as any other private security guard, which does extend to asking you to leave and using reasonable force if you fail to do so.

Most people don't pay in advance for nightclub entry. Those who do will be allowed in because they will not behave like prats, and why else would the bouncers deny them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But do they have the power to watch a train arrive into the train station and then when realising it’s full start grabbing people and removing them by force?

Do you know that they did that, and they didn't ask people to leave first then use reasonable force when they didn't? The former would be assault, but I'd be surprised if that was what actually happened.

 

[OneOffDave]

I'd be interested to know how they'd done the passenger count to know it was 'full' and what the TOC classes as the current capacity for each carriage. Otherwise it's massively subjective and would be hard to legally defend why one person was allowed on but the next person wasn't

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be interested to know how they'd done the passenger count to know it was 'full' and what the TOC classes as the current capacity for each carriage. Otherwise it's massively subjective and would be hard to legally defend why one person was allowed on but the next person wasn't

There won't likely be a need to legally defend anything, because only a tiny number of people would take a matter like that to Court. Most people would whine for a bit and get on the next train instead, a few would assault the staff (some verbally, a very small number physically), but hardly any would pursue a legal case.

 

[Wolfie]

Most people don't pay in advance for nightclub entry. Those who do will be allowed in because they will not behave like prats, and why else would the bouncers deny them?

BS dress codes, profiling (not uncommonly with a race element), not wanting too many blokes in... There are many reasons, some of which are illegal but prove it...

 

[yorkie]

This is nonsensical behaviour by a train company, yet again!

Social distancing cannot be guaranteed on public transport; indeed this is precisely the rationale for the mandating of face coverings:
https://www.who.int/emergencies/dis...wers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-on-covid-19-and-masks

for areas of widespread transmission, with limited capacity for implementing control measures and especially in settings where physical distancing of at least 1 metre is not possible – such as on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments – WHO advises governments to encourage the general public to use non-medical fabric masks.

@Class195 you may wish to send an FOI request to enquire what instructions have been issued to these staff

 

[Wolfie]

There won't likely be a need to legally defend anything, because only a tiny number of people would take a matter like that to Court. Most people would whine for a bit and get on the next train instead, a few would assault the staff (some verbally, a very small number physically), but hardly any would pursue a legal case.

No, but if private rent a goon physically removes someone who boarded at a previous station without objection they are absolutely wide open to an assault charge. If they did that to me l would definitely press charges.

 

[Starmill]

BS dress codes, profiling (not uncommonly with a race element), not wanting too many blokes in... There are many reasons, some of which are illegal but prove it...

I've never come across any of that at a place that sold tickets in advance and then denied people on the day, although I accept that maybe you or others have. I guess we shouldn't go further off topic.

 

[Wolfie]

I've never come across any of that at a place that sold tickets in advance and then denied people on the day, although I accept that maybe you or others have. I guess we shouldn't go further off topic.

Won't go too far off topic but "smart casual" can be interpreted however the particular door person wishes for example...
Some tickets actually try to instruct women to "dress sexy" for god's sake...

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, but if private rent a goon physically removes someone who boarded at a previous station without objection they are absolutely wide open to an assault charge. If they did that to me l would definitely press charges.

If they did so without asking them to leave then they would be open to an assault charge, but I find it difficult to believe that they did as even the thickest brawn-over-brain rentathug security guard is not that stupid. More likely they asked people to leave, they didn't, then reasonable force was used.

 

[mmh]

The people described below were not British Transport Police but ex nightclub door staff now being contracted work by Transport For Wales.

What actual rights do they have with regards a full train and grabbing passengers from the vestibule and forcing them off said full train and telling them that it is full and they must now wait for the next one (hourly service on the North Wales line)?

It all comes across as a bit OTT, despite the concerns of the guard working a packed three car 175.

Why aren’t these hourly services strengthened?

The "below" part of this post seems to be missing, making it difficult to know what you, and the replies, are discussing.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I too would be aggrieved if I was hauled off a train by one of these rent-a-gobs and made to wait for the next one - which is an hour away and might be just as busy, so no guarantee that I would get on.

Surely, just strengthen or add additional trains if paths and availability of stock/crew allow for it?

 

[mmh]

If a passenger were removed from a train despite having bought a valid ticket for it, the company would be acting unlawfully unless they could prove some offence was committed.

By which law would they be acting unlawfully?

 

[Starmill]

By which law would they be acting unlawfully?

Contract law? Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

 

[Class195]

This is nonsensical behaviour by a train company, yet again!

Social distancing cannot be guaranteed on public transport; indeed this is precisely the rationale for the mandating of face coverings:
https://www.who.int/emergencies/dis...wers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-on-covid-19-and-masks


@Class195 you may wish to send an FOI request to enquire what instructions have been issued to these staff

I challenged one of them and asked if they were British Transport Police to which he replied no, they wasn’t but a contracted security firm that normally would be doing the nightclub doors being used by Transport For Wales.

 

[mmh]

Contract law? Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

A ticket doesn't imply a contract to be carried on a particular train exists, or that there's a guarantee of that happening.

 

[Class195]

Do you know that they did that, and they didn't ask people to leave first then use reasonable force when they didn't? The former would be assault, but I'd be surprised if that was what actually happened.

To give you best description possible here is what happened.

The three car 175 train arrived on the platform where around 30/40 people wanted to board the service.

There was already a member of security staff onboard in the front carriage. Who was stood blocking the door telling people to get on further down as he was protecting the driver.

There were already three security staff on the platform before the train arrived.

The female conductor was at the rear screaming no more, we are full but as people got off, people got on and with it being full were forced to stand in the vestibule by the doors.

It was here when the three security staff on the platform went down the train saying people needed to get off and started grabbing passengers and removing them from the train.

The train then left and it was still heavily overcrowded.

I watched one man who was removed from that service go into the ticket office to complain.

The member staff came out and explained that Transport For Wales were going to put coaches on for the 30/40 passengers who couldn’t board the train.

 

[Starmill]

A ticket doesn't imply a contract to be carried on a particular train exists

If the ticket was booked for particular use on that train, or was valid on that train and the passenger was at the station in good time to board, then that's exactly what I say it implies.

Guarantees? No. If the train is cancelled or it's impossible for the customer to board because it's literally full the contract has possibly been breached, but there is predefined refund or compensation entitlement as a result. The customer agrees to this possibility under NRCoT. The customer doesn't agree to be turned away without any reason by security.

Of course, Transport for Wales could offer to transport people on another train or in a bus or taxi instead, and some people would have agreed to that. But they can't just turn people away because they regret selling the tickets.

 

[mmh]

Where and when was this?

 

[Kilopylae]

A ticket doesn't imply a contract to be carried on a particular train exists, or that there's a guarantee of that happening.

Article 13.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (the terms of the contract) gives you the right to travel on any service for which the Ticket is valid.

 

[Class195]

Where and when was this?

Today at Chester. Platform 4b to be precise.

I think Yorkie is correct, send a FOI request in to find out exactly what powers these security/bouncer contracted staff actually have.

 

[mmh]

Today at Chester. Platform 4b to be precise.

Thanks. Loads of 10+ over dwells there this morning. Guess it's a sunny day on the "Bank Holiday Week"

 

[Class195]

Thanks. Loads of 10+ over dwells there this morning. Guess it's a sunny day on the "Bank Holiday Week"

Not good for the passengers or security staff when a three car 175 arrives and it’s already full with a further 30/40 trying to get on the train at the platform.

It was a complete shambles not helped by the security/bouncers working for Transport For Wales.

 

[bramling]

Today at Chester. Platform 4b to be precise.

I think Yorkie is correct, send a FOI request in to find out exactly what powers these security/bouncer contracted staff actually have.

Are they only being found at the larger stations, or can we look forward to "rent a gobs" (made me chuckle whoever came up with that one earlier in the thread!) appearing at places like Sugar Loaf?

 

[mmh]

Not good for the passengers or security staff when a three car 175 arrives and it’s already full with a further 30/40 trying to get on the train at the platform.

It was a complete shambles not helped by the security/bouncers working for Transport For Wales.

Unfortunately likely to have been worse without them, with a guard and/or driver refusing to go until it's sorted out, which in the absence of the bouncers means waiting for the police to arrive to do, err, exactly the same thing. Same effect, more delay.

The problem isn't the staff or the bouncers, it's the continued extreme version of distancing being mandated.

Eventually it must go, nowhere other than the train is anyone here paying any attention to distancing. The only masks are on tourists from England, and not on many of them this weekend.

 

[yorkie]

Eventually it must go, nowhere other than the train is anyone here paying any attention to distancing. The only masks are on tourists from England, and not on many of them this weekend.

Sorry to be a pain but there are already existing threads for discussion regarding masks vs social distancing.

Let's stick to the specific question posed in this thread, to avoid duplication please.

Thanks