Preserved bus events. do we need a law change to allow charging

[Ken H]

As far as I understand it, it's not allowed for owners of preserved buses to charge for bus rides at veteran vehicle events.

It costs a shedload of cash to run a bus to and from the venue, and to the rides.
Many events buses carry a bucket for people to contribute, but many riders just ignore it.

So do we need a change in the law to allow veteran bus owners to make a small charge at bus events?
Yes I know old buses are not disability compliant.

I reckon a max of £3 would be reasonable, but I don't know. Don't want to kill events by price gouging.

 

[Flange Squeal]

One thing that would really help - and within current rules - would be if those attending free-to-enter events/rallies could pay the few £s to purchase a programme. I’ve been involved in events where the rides have to be free and open to all to comply with the rules surrounding operating, with the money raised from programme sales containing the timetables and allocations contributing towards event costs (public liability insurance, toilet hire, fuel contributions to vehicle owners etc).

It’s amazing how many people who attend free events enjoy riding the free buses and using the on-site facilities, but aren’t willing to part with a few quid that can be put towards the organisational costs by purchasing an event programme. Whether this is intentional or people just don’t realise the costs and effort that is put into staging such events, I don’t know. But an increase in programme purchasers, at least at the events I’ve been involved with, really would make a huge difference and ensure their continuation going forward.

 

[DaveLondon]

As far as I understand it, it's not allowed for owners of preserved buses to charge for bus rides at veteran vehicle events.

It costs a shedload of cash to run a bus to and from the venue, and to the rides.
Many events buses carry a bucket for people to contribute, but many riders just ignore it.

So do we need a change in the law to allow veteran bus owners to make a small charge at bus events?
Yes I know old buses are not disability compliant.

I reckon a max of £3 would be reasonable, but I don't know. Don't want to kill events by price gouging.

I am pretty certain the bucket for donations is also illegal - quite rare now.

Potentially you are making these vehicles "hire and reward" when they may not be approprately insured or MOT'd. It does annoy me how few people want to buy programmes (usually brilliantly produced) and resent any charges and just want to photograph outside - not even buying a cup of tea at the venue. Rant over!

One thing that would really help - and within current rules - would be if those attending free-to-enter events/rallies could pay the few £s to purchase a programme. I’ve been involved in events where the rides have to be free and open to all to comply with the rules surrounding operating, with the money raised from programme sales containing the timetables and allocations contributing towards event costs (public liability insurance, toilet hire, fuel contributions to vehicle owners etc).

It’s amazing how many people attend events and enjoy riding the free buses and using the facilities, but aren’t willing to contribute a few quid towards the organisational costs by purchasing a programme. Whether this is intentional or people just don’t realise the costs and effort that is put into staging such events, j don’t know. But an increase in programme purchasers, at least at the events I’ve been involved with, really would make a huge difference.

Yes I totally agree!

 

[richw]

I am pretty certain the bucket for donations is also illegal - quite rare now.

It is. Any money exchanging hands between passengers and operator can not happen.
Even an entry fee to a venue with buses operating free is a no.
Passengers ‘tipping’ the driver again is a no. A recent event I attended a number of passengers were handing the driver cash to ‘grab a beer when you finish driver’. This is reward so can’t be seen.
Selling programs or timetables off bus can be done as long as it’s not compulsory to buy. It’s a grey area to sell them on bus. Hitting the top money for program or timetable sales without overpricing is a critical balancing act.

 

[Starmill]

I think that as long as the sale of drinks and snacks or a booklet with timetable and details is clearly being priced only for those specific goods, it's likely to be permissible. Although if VAT were relevant to such sales you might be in with an issue if the business is registered.

 

[Martin1988]

I regularly travel to events with someone who asks for a contribution to cover the costs of the trip but makes a point of collecting the payment during the journey home.

They previously suggested to me that this was because they couldn't be seen to be charging.

 

[richw]

I regularly travel to events with someone who asks for a contribution to cover the costs of the trip but makes a point of collecting the payment during the journey home.

They previously suggested to me that this was because they couldn't be seen to be charging.

Taking the money onboard the bus isn’t recommended. In the circumstances you describe I would always hand cash over to the vehicle owner in a neutral location. In the Pub or lunch venue is normally my choice to hand over some cash. I could be Paying for their lunch that way.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think the issue with programmes is that many people don't actually need a programme! It's not necessarily evident to the attendee that the income generated is a key funding stream.

Unfortunately, I can't see a way forward that would enable 'fares' to be charged on individual preserved buses - a can of worms.

 

[duncombec]

As others have said, a bucket on board is a quite suspect these days, and you have to be cautious in regard to anything that could look like Hire and Reward, even if all parties involved know that it isn't.

Programmes are always a matter of contention: it can be difficult to persuade regular members of the public turning up to a running day who just want a ride around that they "ought" to pay for something full of stuff they won't be interested in to support an event that is "free".
Some events don't help themselves in how they present it: I attended one event last year which was charging £8 for two sheets of black and white A4 and a colour card cover. A previous edition from 2014 was 400% larger for the same price... I know shrinkflation is a thing, but not that much! What made matters worse is that it had been printed well in advance, so some two or three buses worth of journeys weren't running, and late entry buses had been allowed to do their own thing rather than fill the gaps. It also didn't include any details as to which journeys were being run with limited capacity vehicles, so you have a crowd of 50-odd, who have just discovered the bus they want has been a no-show deciding to wait for the next one, which could fit them all but is only able to carry 16. Did any of that money actually go to the vehicle owners, as the program seller was loudly suggesting? One owner I spoke to said he'd never been offered, and wouldn't know who to ask...

By contrast, the Alton Rally & Running Day (sadly not taking place this year) had charged £7 for a full-colour, glossy-print guide to the show, including all timetables and a list of vehicles entered by the closing date, for all the years I'd been attending. That event takes a significantly higher effort to put on and produce than borrowing a bus station for a Sunday and asking people to bring some buses (and then only really advertising it on Facebook and luck if you see it elsewhere).

Sometimes, all people want is a simple sheet of timetables, which could be run off on a home printer and be sold for 50p. Is it "better" to sell every one of ten people a 50p sheet making £5, or one person a programme at £8 and nine people just riding for "free"?

As I skimmed the Classic Bus Events diary (https://www.classicbuses.co.uk/events.html) for the next few weeks, one such event (programme cost £9) notes on its blurb "In a slight twist from previous running days, buses will depart from one of three different stops, heading out in all directions with up to 10 departures each hour. Programmes will have details of the stops making them essential to plan your day!" Hmm....

 

[Simon75]

Never realised there was a law.
I know some companies have charity Santa buses at Christmas with heritage buses, running along side normal routes.
They have a bucket or similar gor donations

 

[richw]

Programmes are always a matter of contention: it can be difficult to persuade regular members of the public turning up to a running day who just want a ride around that they "ought" to pay for something full of stuff they won't be interested in to support an event that is "free".

We participated in an event last weekend connecting a number of local pubs. The pubs had organised family entertainment, bbqs etc and promoted it heavily. Organisers had 300 programmes and sold out with much greater demand even after they’d sold out. It had been organised jointly between a couple of local preservationists and a few local landlords.
It was only the second year of a new event, last year in year 1 they only sold 150.
Very few enthusiasts and majority of the travellers were local public. They showed a greater interest in the vehicles with lots of questions we don’t get from enthusiasts, as the majority knew nothing about heritage buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Never realised there was a law.
I know some companies have charity Santa buses at Christmas with heritage buses, running along side normal routes.
They have a bucket or similar gor donations

They are proper businesses with appropriate insurances etc permitting for hire and reward.

 

[Leyland Bus]

It is. Any money exchanging hands between passengers and operator can not happen.
Even an entry fee to a venue with buses operating free is a no.
Passengers ‘tipping’ the driver again is a no. A recent event I attended a number of passengers were handing the driver cash to ‘grab a beer when you finish driver’. This is reward so can’t be seen.
Selling programs or timetables off bus can be done as long as it’s not compulsory to buy. It’s a grey area to sell them on bus. Hitting the top money for program or timetable sales without overpricing is a critical balancing act.

It isn't illegal to accept donations, it is only illegal to openly charge and  ask for money. If someone wishes to leave some money of their own volition that is fine as that is not classed as hire or reward, reward is classed as specifically charging for a service.

Unless it has totally changed in very recent times, that is where we stand.

 

[Titfield]

Three thoughts here:
1) The Traffic Commissioners Statutory Guidance on Hire and Reward certainly gives food for thought.
"A payment made for the carrying of a passenger (excluding those connected with an air replacement service) is to be treated as a fare notwithstanding that it is made in consideration of other matters in addition to the journey and shall be treated as made for the carrying of a passenger if it gives a person the right to be carried, for one or more journeys, whether or not the right is exercised."
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ons-including-limousines-and-novelty-vehicles
That does rather suggest that if buying an event programme gives the right to be carried on a bus then the service is offered for hire and reward.
2) Notwithstanding the above, but God forbid, if a "preserved bus" was involved in an incident which involved injury to a passenger on that vehicle, then I am sure the insurers would look at the claim and the terms of the policy very carefully indeed. Is this the sort of risk that an owner would wish to take?
3) Perhaps the only way this will be resolved would be a prosecution resulting in a determination of the legal position.

 

[Martin1988]

I will admit I very rarely buy the programme at events. One occasion event staff virtually forced me to by refusing to give me any information about the vehicles but rather simply saying "all we'll tell you is not all buses are returning to the site".

The person I travel to events with who collects payment on the way home also appears unable to give an indication of the cost in advance and seems to work it out based on the fuel costs and the numbers who have attended. They also barred somebody from attending future trips after one instance when they refused to pay anything towards the trip.

There was an instance a few years ago where an enthusiasts group from my area went up to an event near Sheffield and suffered a vehicle failure. Another enthusiasts group from the area were there but refused to take the original group back with them without them making an additional payment. Think this was due to the fact it required them to take a detour to drop the original group off. Would the enthusiasts group that took them back have been within their right to ask for extra payment from their extra passengers?

 

[LucyP]

I think many of the people posting here have read this document and are taking it as gospel, when in reality it overstates the case.

For example: "No donation receptacle should be present and in the case of vehicles with authentic unpaid fare boxes, these should be blocked off."

http://www.nartm.org.uk/documents/Nartm%20Free%20Bus%20Services%20GN%20Issue%206%2002032018_B.pdf

There is nothing wrong with the box, or tipping the driver, provided it doesn't say something like - donation required to ride, or mininum donation £X.

It is no different to a cathedral. If you have to pay to enter, then that is a requirement. If there is a donation box for the upkeep of the church and it is entirely voluntary as to what you put in it, or not at all, then there is no requirement for payment.

You can sell a programme, providing it isn't necessary to buy a programme to ride on the bus.

The rules were never intended to make it impossible for an enthusiast, hobbiest to bring his preserved bus to an event and not let other enthusiasts ride on it, such that it could only be a boring, static exhibit; or make someone who is a teacher or a plumber apply for the same operators licence as First or Stagecoach, just so he can take his preserved bus to one or two events a year and allow enthusiasts to ride on it.

The "guidance" above, only takes the literal approach to interpretation, and then applies it too narrowly, and doesn't consider the purposive approach.

As to Martin's question, insufficient information is given to answer it. He talks about an "additional payment". That seems to suggest that the original group were being charged, so the failed bus must have had an operator's licence. The 2nd bus would need one also to be able to charge.

 

[Titfield]

I will admit I very rarely buy the programme at events. One occasion event staff virtually forced me to by refusing to give me any information about the vehicles but rather simply saying "all we'll tell you is not all buses are returning to the site".

The person I travel to events with who collects payment on the way home also appears unable to give an indication of the cost in advance and seems to work it out based on the fuel costs and the numbers who have attended. They also barred somebody from attending future trips after one instance when they refused to pay anything towards the trip.

There was an instance a few years ago where an enthusiasts group from my area went up to an event near Sheffield and suffered a vehicle failure. Another enthusiasts group from the area were there but refused to take the original group back with them without them making an additional payment. Think this was due to the fact it required them to take a detour to drop the original group off. Would the enthusiasts group that took them back have been within their right to ask for extra payment from their extra passengers?

The use of the word "payment" to me places this squarely within the definition of "hire and reward".

Whilst I can understand owners of buses are trying to find a way to take moneys to offset the cost of operating the bus, nevertheless it seems to me that they are straying into what is licensed regulated activity and thus they have to comply with the legislation.

If there is to be some form of exemption from O licensing etc then I would still expect that the owners of vehicles used to carry passengers still can some form of insurance that protects those carried on the bus in the event of their being some form of incident.

 

[RJ]

I sometimes bring my buses to these events and accept the situation for what it is - it’s at my own cost.

I’ve been through the hoops to do hire and reward, but still wouldn’t seek donations for these events.

 

[northernbelle]

I'm involved with organising such events and we're very careful to include wording on the front of the programme: "A programme is not required to travel on the buses but purchasing one helps immensely with cost of running them".

The law is pretty clear on this - I wouldn't even accept fuel money from family on this basis.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm involved with organising such events and we're very careful to include wording on the front of the programme: "A programme is not required to travel on the buses but purchasing one helps immensely with cost of running them".

The law is pretty clear on this - I wouldn't even accept fuel money from family on this basis.

How very sensible, others should do much the same.

 

[Sm5]

Why dont they sell other stuff instead, website access, mugs, books etc. S there anything wrong with selling pictures of the bus, or the driver ?

I really enjoy attending running days on LUL routes around London, but there is literally no way to contribute anything.

Maybe a souvenir ticket, that's not valid for travel, and is an attendance certificate that anyone can buy, rider or not?

Sadly, on the recent Kingston running day there was some youths who rocked up, with microphone and speaker, who started swearing and abusing other passengers on the bus, at one point picking on a child and made comments about her mother sat next to her, at which point a number of passengers intervened and some strong words followed.

The driver and conductor ignored it and several passengers chose to leave the bus, including mother and child, who weren't enthusiasts, just normal people who saw chance for a novelty ride, and will probably never do that again.

All it takes is a bunch of complaints to TFL to start giving this a bad reputation.

There was a bunch of abusive kids on the open top bus on the Windsor running day last year too, swearing at people on the street.
Why these are tolerated seems odd, but I have had a sense that they were friendly with the driver, had a few and day's end was coming.

You could argue its free, and its not a public bus so passengers have no rights to expect common decency, but it doesn't bode well for the image of these events. If this was a TfL bus the driver could ask them to get off, pull over, call police etc, but these events seem to have no regulation or framework.

If it continues and louts like this go racist, i’d imagine it could kill off support for this kind of event in one viral tweet.

 

[SLC001]

What surprises me in life is how unappreciative folks can be, showing a lack of understanding and empathy for people who run and attend these events. A mentality which says, I have paid my entrance fee, therefore I am entitled. I am very grateful to the people who run these events, bring vehicles and who run services and would have no hesitation in making a donation to cover their costs. However, I do note that we have retired on a reasonable income and do not have to watch every penny. Would I act differently if I was struggling financially? I like to think not. Just wish that I could attend more.
Incidentally, it is worth noting that several events have been cancelled through lack of volunteers - or is it increased need to comply with (excessive?) health and safety requirements and risk assessments.

 

[RT4038]

I will admit I very rarely buy the programme at events. One occasion event staff virtually forced me to by refusing to give me any information about the vehicles but rather simply saying "all we'll tell you is not all buses are returning to the site".

Therein lies the problem - expecting to take part in a free activity but not prepared to contribute to the costs. Somebody has to pay for the expenses you know?

The person I travel to events with who collects payment on the way home also appears unable to give an indication of the cost in advance and seems to work it out based on the fuel costs and the numbers who have attended. They also barred somebody from attending future trips after one instance when they refused to pay anything towards the trip.

Well what a surprise!

There was an instance a few years ago where an enthusiasts group from my area went up to an event near Sheffield and suffered a vehicle failure. Another enthusiasts group from the area were there but refused to take the original group back with them without them making an additional payment. Think this was due to the fact it required them to take a detour to drop the original group off. Would the enthusiasts group that took them back have been within their right to ask for extra payment from their extra passengers?

Legal right - no. Moral right - I'll leave that to your thoughts. Did they have a right to be carried home - none whatsoever. Could have taken public transport or walked back, at whatever time and cost.

I sometimes bring my buses to these events and accept the situation for what it is - it’s at my own cost.

Quite, but there are no doubt some where finances are tighter and it means that their vehicles are not exhibited and ridden on.

Getting back to the OP question ' Preserved bus events. do we need a law change to allow charging?' my answer is

1. No we don't 'need' it
2. Yes it should/could be, but
3. It would be quite difficult to write a piece of legislation to specifically cover these type of events, and not provide any kind of loophole for business activity of any kind (running heritage bus weddings/school proms etc with vehicles not to strict pcv rules ) and
4. is such a niche activity that legislative time is unlikely to be found to write and pass such legislation.

Why dont they sell other stuff instead, website access, mugs, books etc.
anything wrong with selling pictures of the bus, or the driver ?

Because it is a load of extra work and hassle and financial risk.

 

[geoffk]

I regularly travel to events with someone who asks for a contribution to cover the costs of the trip but makes a point of collecting the payment during the journey home.

They previously suggested to me that this was because they couldn't be seen to be charging.

Two of the bus owners I know say they will never accept money under any circumstances, while another collects donations on the way home - but if someone from VOSA finds out then that owner is in trouble. The Hire and Reward rules are very strict and no-one wants to be the first to end up in Court. I agree though that a way should be found to make donations possible - you can donate on-line of course direct to the bus owner's account and absolutely do buy a programme.

 

[Titfield]

What surprises me in life is how unappreciative folks can be, showing a lack of understanding and empathy for people who run and attend these events. A mentality which says, I have paid my entrance fee, therefore I am entitled. I am very grateful to the people who run these events, bring vehicles and who run services and would have no hesitation in making a donation to cover their costs. However, I do note that we have retired on a reasonable income and do not have to watch every penny. Would I act differently if I was struggling financially? I like to think not. Just wish that I could attend more.
Incidentally, it is worth noting that several events have been cancelled through lack of volunteers - or is it increased need to comply with (excessive?) health and safety requirements and risk assessments.

Many organisations which rely on volunteers (heritage railways, National Trust, RNLI, hospital car service, charity shops - the list goes on) have reported a huge drop in volunteer numbers post covid. Many volunteers simply havent returned. There seems to be a multitude of reasons but COVID has seemed to have given many many people an opportunity to think about their lives and a considerable number have chosen to cease volunteering. Very sad indeed.

As a heritage railway fan, I am saddened to see far more people just visiting a heritage railway, taking pictures on the station platform, but not travelling, not buying a cup of tea and a bun and not even buying a postcard in the shop. Many heritage railways are in a parlous financial position.

 

[Towers]

Why dont they sell other stuff instead, website access, mugs, books etc.
anything wrong with selling pictures of the bus, or the driver ?

I really enjoy attending running days on LUL routes around London, but there is literally no way to contribute anything.

Maybe a souvenir ticket, thats not valid for travel, and is an attendance certificate that anyone can buy, rider or not ?

Sadly, on the recent Kingston running day there was some youths who rocked up, with microphone and speaker, who started swearing and abusing other passengers on the bus, at one point picking on a child and made comments about her mother, sat next to her, at which point a number of passengers intervened and some strong words followed.

The driver and conductor ignored it and several passengers chose to leave the bus, including mother and child, who werent enthusiasts, just normal people who saw chance for a novelty ride, and will probably never do that again.

All it takes is a bunch of complaints to TFL to start giving this a bad reputation.

There was a bunch of abusive kids on the open top bus on the windsor running day last year to, swearing at people on the street.
Why these are tolerated seems odd, but I have had sense they were friendly with the driver, had a few and days end was coming.

You could argue its free, and its not a public bus so passengers have no righsts to expect common decency, but it doesnt bode well for the image of these events… if this was a TfL bus the driver could ask them to get off, pull over, call police etc, but these events seem to have no regulation or framework.

if it continues and louts like this go racist, i’d imagine it could kill off support for this kind of event in one viral tweet.

During the last of the excellent ‘Beer & Buses’ events formerly held on the Isle of Wight, it was reported that there were a few instances of passengers being ejected from vehicles and even of damage to buses being discovered. It’s a great shame, but regretfully any event which is open to the public carries a risk of idiots turning up to spoil things, and of course moreso where the event itself involves pubs!

 

[Gloster]

I would have thought that one problem with programmes is that most people are not really interested in the information contained in them: they have just casually dropped in to see a few old buses that they vaguely remember or grandad talked about. They are not interested in learning that it is a Leyland PD2 with a Gardner engine and lowbridge bodywork that operated with… If they live in Buggleskelly and it is in Buggleskelly Corporation livery they might show a flicker of interest, but once they have pointed out that funny platform at the back, that is it.

And you have the attitude that if an event is in an open area, people feel that somehow it should be free. ”I could see everything from the road outside, so why should I pay to get a bit closer?”

 

[Towers]

It’s tempting to ponder whether some sort of national charitable organisation might be the answer here, complex as that would be?

 

[RT4038]

I would have thought that one problem with programmes is that most people are not really interested in the information contained in them: they have just casually dropped in to see a few old buses that they vaguely remember or grandad talked about. They are not interested in learning that it is a Leyland PD2 with a Gardner engine and lowbridge bodywork that operated with… If they live in Buggleskelly and it is in Buggleskelly Corporation livery they might show a flicker of interest, but once they have pointed out that funny platform at the back, that is it.

And you have the attitude that if an event is in an open area, people feel that somehow it should be free. ”I could see everything from the road outside, so why should I pay to get a bit closer?”

I am sure you are right, and if the event doesn't take place then they wouldn't notice or care. The owners have to suck it up, and only bother to do the things that they like doing. Of course, if if they want to give free rides they can, and if they want to bother trying to commercialise merchandise or something they can, and if they can't or don't want to afford to take the vehicle along then that is fine also.
However, those people who are interested, and have a desire to see the vehicles and ride on them, need to be contributing in some way or else the opportunities will get fewer and fewer.

 

[Sm5]

So to me these days out are great fun.
indeed i’d even be open to volunteering some way.
i’d definitely contribute to an event, and would prefer if contributing to the event saw funds split between all participants.

The public reaction at the bus running days is fantastic to see, old, and young everyone loves it.
The drivers and conductors are equally entertaining, especially when in costume, and with old ticket machines.
these are a real fun atmosphere.

I admit I was put off from the East Grinstead day, I learned about it too late to buy a program, and was told a bit bluntly on facebook that theres no way to find out which buses where running, in which routes and which times.. which basically amounted to foxtrot oscar as without any knowledge I wouldnt know where to go.. so I reluctantly had to pass on visiting, even though I was willing to pay.

The problem here was running out of time in advance..
I do note many of these events are facebook listed.

Perhaps a more formal events website, or even a forum where people can subscribe to each event is a way forwards…?

it adds additional benefits of sharing not just timetables, rosters and routes… but people could share on the day experiences (delays, alterations, good pubs, photo spots etc during the event).
You could perhaps time each bus / diagram in its own thread.

Sure it doesnt prevent free passengers, but it does give “extra” something back to those who want to contribute and is about the social aspect rather than an bus ticket and supports the cause ?

I suspect many of the public believe these events are in some way funded and dont always realise its voluntary.
so being able to promote the event website, and the organizers is one removed from any individual bus and falls a bit more inline with plandampfs for example ?

would this work ?