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Preserved bus events. do we need a law change to allow charging

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Robertj21a

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One concern now is the reduced attendance at many rallies and even the loss of key events [Alton is a massive loss]. There may also be a certain level of boredom creeping in given that a high proportion of vehicles attending will, understandably, be mostly the same ones, year after year.
 
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Roger1973

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From the perspective of someone who goes to bus running days, and has been involved either as bus crew member or part of the event organisation team, I'd agree with those who say read the NARTM guide, which has been contributed to by people who have been putting larger running days on for some years.

I'm not going to trawl the thread and quote, but I would question the opinion expressed somewhere about it being wrong / excessive. Page one includes "It does not purport to represent or state the full legal position."

Ultimately, there's a few situations that are a grey area, and the only way it would be established whether doing X is legal or not would be for a 'test case' where an event organiser or bus owner got prosecuted and either found guilty or not. If you want to take the chance, it's up to you, but from my perspective, I don't want me to be the one in the dock, thanks all the same.

There isn't a catch-all answer, preserved railways also suffer from freeloaders who want to get on stations or to the lineside (legitimately or otherwise) or overbridges and don't want to pay anything towards it.

While PSV regulations don't apply to preserved buses, I would have thought that bus owners / crews at running days can 'reserve the right of admission' and refuse admission to a bus or ask unruly passengers to leave a bus - whether they would want to take the risk of doing so will be up to each individual. I am aware of one incident where a conductor at a running day got assaulted in this situation.

And yes, preserved buses (that are non PSV) do of course need to have insurance that would cover their passengers, even on a free service, in the same way that I need to have insurance on my private car. Some insurers who do preserved buses have policies which limit the number of passengers, or will allow a set number of running day type events each year if you tell them in advance.
 

Martin1988

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Therein lies the problem - expecting to take part in a free activity but not prepared to contribute to the costs. Somebody has to pay for the expenses you know?
I honestly never considered the fact the programmes contribute towards the cost of the event so will think carefully about buying one next time.
 

Dai Corner

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I always buy a programme, drink, food and something from the trade stalls and make a donation.

Why wouldn't you?
 

Robertj21a

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I always buy a programme, drink, food and something from the trade stalls and make a donation.

Why wouldn't you?
Jolly good, but you're very much in the minority. Drink/food is usually very expensive (and can be brought from home anyway) which will deter many attendees.
 

341o2

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I honestly never considered the fact the programmes contribute towards the cost of the event so will think carefully about buying one next time.
Bournemouth Bus Rally allows free entry to the showground, but you have to have a valid programme to ride on the buses.
This is reminding me, that in the early days of railway preservation, some societies tried to get around the requirement to have the railway inspected by offering a free ride in exchange for a donation
 

jp4712

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Bournemouth Bus Rally allows free entry to the showground, but you have to have a valid programme to ride on the buses.
if the programme has to be paid for, I’d say that is flat illegal. I’d refuse to let my buses be used for service on that basis, as if the authorities got involved it would be the vehicle owners who would be prosecuted.

I’m possibly the only one contributing to this thread who actually owns vintage buses, so here’s my take… [EDIT] I see that at least one other vehicle owner has posted up thread, my apologies.

I like giving rides, in moderation. Someone mentioned how seeing old buses brings joy, I like nothing more than driving one of my buses and a mum points it out to her children, who wave, and if possible I wave back. Giving rides is a bit like that, on boost. But it has to be in moderation: I didn’t spend thousands on restoring two vintage buses so I could wear them out again.

As someone else has said, the NARTM guide is the bible. A bucket is soliciting money, so is illegal. So is requiring some kind of condition before boarding (Rout v Swallow Hotels Ltd, 1992) such as buying a programme or site entrance ticket.

It’s just hard luck - if you need to take money in a bucket, then one wonders why you’re in the hobby. It’s not a cheap hobby unless you’re at the ‘buy it, run it till it breaks’ margin and not taking money means that I owe no obligation to anyone; annual testing is much easier (in fact both my buses are MOT exempt but I get a voluntary test); and insurance is much cheaper.

What does trouble me slightly is the sense of entitlement that some enthusiasts have. The one who would rather take pics at the end of the museum’s entrance road rather than pay to come in; the one who brings sandwiches and a flask rather than paying for lunch in the museum’s tea room; the one who doesn’t buy a programme. Best quote I’ve heard? “I don’t need to pay and come inside your museum, I paid three years ago so I don’t need to come in again.” Oh well, that’s a good job as it cost money to put on the event three years ago but we’ve run this one on fresh air…?
 
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Skymonster

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What does trouble me slightly is the sense of entitlement that some enthusiasts have. The one who would rather take pics at the end of the museum’s entrance road rather than pay to come in; the one who brings sandwiches and a flask rather than paying for lunch in the museum’s tea room; the one who doesn’t buy a programme. Best quote I’ve heard? “I don’t need to pay and come inside your museum, I paid three years ago so I don’t need to come in again.” Oh well, that’s a good job as it cost money to put on the event three years ago but we’ve run this one on fresh air…?
I think its a bit disingenuous of you to criticise the enthusiast by the roadside (or rail side). There are plenty of people - myself included - whose main interest is photography, and its an inevitable truism that the best place to get pictures of vehicles is not in a tightly confined yard (or station platform) where Johnny Clampett is sticking his head in the doors. I went to Rydabus earlier this year - and yes, I did buy a programme, but I then spent almost all of my time beside local roads where to all appearances I was a freeloader (no I didn’t buy a greasy burger or a cup of tea though - if there had been more healthy and appealing options at a reasonable price I might have spent more). I got what I wanted out of the day, and I also put a few quid in the coffers (no idea whether that went to the museum or in part to the owners of private vehicles that took part) but I’ll admit organisers don’t always make doing so overly easy for those who have genuine motivation for be offsite during an event. Having said that I do attend one particular preserved bus site regularly, and I always make a reasonable donation (not just coppers) - I know what it costs to run such establishments and operate vehicles, and I think its only fair. Watching what goes on with the general public though, its apparent not everyone else thinks the same way.

I also sort of get the “I paid three years ago so why should I pay again” thing if nothing much has changed - not so much with running private vehicles, but if its a museum then it needs to be dynamic in terms of what it exhibits or it risks putting off returnees.

This year I’ve been to a few bus events, and some of them were [IMO] very poorly attended. Take the Wythall gig at Gaydon for example. Yes its a bit remote but there were free (although very poorly patronised) buses from Leamington Spa station, and otherwise its a great location with lots of space and other things to do. But I think the significant admission fee - which was to get into the British Motor Museum - would have put quite a lot off. As a result, visitors were rather thin on the ground and those that were there weren’t spending much. Anecdotal evidence suggests plenty of other events with substantial entrance fees have suffered the same this year. People just don’t have so much cash to splash at the moment - I think many are holding back for one big splurge on an annual holiday rather than spending lesser sums week in, week out on leisure activities. The flip side is that I know several “free” bus events this year have done rather well in terms of attendance. Hopefully those made a few quid from things - be they donation tins, food and beverage, or selling merchandise.

I also volunteer at a major preserved transport establishment, as operating crew. Its true - there has been a significant drop in returning volunteers since covid, and there is a constant drive to recruit new faces. That is affecting what can be offered on a daily basis. Admissions (paid once, then free return for the rest of the year) have held up fairly well so far this year - I suspect the true test will come from attendance numbers during the school holidays. But the site offers much more than just a ride on a vintage vehicle - I think that to get a share of what disposable money people (families especially) have its necessary to offer more than a pamphlet and a bus ride.

To return to the original question: I’d appaud any move to regularise payments at preserved bus events. I’m not convinced it would be a panacea given the tough financial conditions some folks find themselves in at the moment. And to grab what money people have, an event needs to offer rounded entertainment for whole families, for more than just an hour or so. Owners of vehicles who choose not to PSV them also need to accept that they’re doing it primarily for themselves and any financial help that comes from the public in such circumstances is, while helpful, coincidental. Yes, yes, I know owners are doing it to ensure historic vehicles remain and can be seen doing what they used to do, but I’d argue that except for the fickle enthusiast market, to most people a preserved bus is a preserved bus is a preserved bus - and once they’ve ridden on one or two they‘re unlikely to spend riding another that looks similar except for the paint job.
 
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Martin1988

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Have been to a few events where you have been required to buy a programme to be allowed to ride the buses but I don't think thats been enforced.

Events like Showbus require passengers to pay an entry fee as do Brooklands and the Gaydon Buses Festival so how come there is allowed to be a difference there?
 

jp4712

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I haven’t attended these events so I can’t say. The most likely scenarios are that it’s possible to ride without paying the entrance fee, perhaps by also having a pick-up point outside the paid area; or, and I hope this isn’t the case, they are potentially breaking the law.

I‘m involved at the Museum of Transport Greater Manchester. You need to pay to come in the museum but when free buses run, they pick up outside the museum and there is no obligation to enter the museum or make any kind of direct or indirect payment to ride. That falls on the right side of the law. Picking up only inside a paid-for area is not allowed (although I’m not saying it never happens…).
 
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L401CJF

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I agree with @jp4712 .

I don't agree with charging for preserved bus rides at all. I used to own a Dennis Dart, now my brother owns it along with a few other vehicles. We are both strongly against other people funding "our hobby" so to speak. If you can't afford the commitment of owning one then it's not for you. We generally have a whoever drives it fuels it rule between us. If you're worried about getting a few quid back to try and cover some costs the hobby is not for you!

We usually carry a Clatterbridge Cancer Hospital donation bucket when we attend shows. If passengers want to donate a few quid then it can go to a good cause. In the past we have got a few mates together and gone to a rally further afield, in which case we have all chipped in a few quid for the fuel to get there and again the Clatterbidge charity bucket has come out for the punters.

For us we get enjoyment just using the vehicles for their original purpose - carrying passengers. It is fun for us and we don't need, want or expect any financial reimbursement for our own pleasure! It is rare we attend shows, just a few local ones each year. We generally just use the buses for driving around occasionally in our spare time rather than attending rallies.

I understand the reason of thought for charging if they are being operated by a museum for example which has to raise its own funds, but if its a private individual then no.

I've not read the whole thread, but in Berlin the local preservation group (Traditionsbus Berlin) run public route 218 on behalf of BVG (the local transport authority) on daily public service all year around. Regular BVG fares apply. Pre covid they hosted an annual running day (Traditionsfahrt) in which they bring their fleet out and run a route (different route each year) alongside BVG. Again regular BVG fares apply. An interesting concept and very successful, however in this case I believe the group operates as a "working company" in which all vehicles are owned by them, and upkeep is funded via the farebox and private hires. They also host day tours for certain events etc and charge fares.

For more information visit traditionsbus.de , a very interesting setup!
 

RT4038

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I agree with @jp4712 .

I don't agree with charging for preserved bus rides at all. I used to own a Dennis Dart, now my brother owns it along with a few other vehicles. We are both strongly against other people funding "our hobby" so to speak. If you can't afford the commitment of owning one then it's not for you. We generally have a whoever drives it fuels it rule between us. If you're worried about getting a few quid back to try and cover some costs the hobby is not for you!
That is all very altruistic of you, and no criticism. But not everyone is as financially flush, either at the start of their preservation project or further down their life. Saying 'the hobby is not for you' is a little selfish and no doubt reduces the number of vehicles that may be otherwise preserved.
 

Flange Squeal

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Events like Showbus require passengers to pay an entry fee as do Brooklands and the Gaydon Buses Festival so how come there is allowed to be a difference there?
I can’t speak for Showbus’ arrangements, however in regards to the London Bus Museum located within the pay-for Brooklands Museum site, then the event days 462 (which links Weybridge town and railway station to the Brooklands Museum site) is free to use and acts as both a round trip bus ride but also a way for visitors from further afield to get to and from the museum from other public transport links like the station. You don’t need to pay a fare or hold museum entrance tickets to travel on it.

The regular circular tours which run weekends and school holidays, and which only pick up on-site, are indeed different and come under hire and reward status. For this though the London Bus Museum has a full Operators Licence, number PK1056364 in the London & South East traffic commissioner area, under the London Bus Preservation Trust Ltd name.

PK1056364​

LONDON BUS PRESERVATION TRUST LTD​

Licence details (PK1056364)​

  • Business typeLimited Company
  • Trading namesLONDON BUS MUSEUM
  • DirectorsROGER RONALD STAGG
  • Peter Osborn
  • Deryck FILL
  • Leon DANIELS
  • Owen WRIGHT
  • Peter Brown
  • Paul Sainthouse
  • Mark Yexley
  • Richard Telling
  • Licence typeStandard National
  • Licence statusValid
  • Continuation date28 Feb 2026
  • Traffic areaLondon and the South East of England

Contact details​

  • AddressBROOKLANDS ROAD, WEYBRIDGE, KT13 0QS, GB

Operating centres​


Operating centreVehiclesTrailers
COBHAM HALL, BROOKLANDS ROAD, WEYBRIDGE, KT13 0QS, GB40

Authorisation​

  • Total Number of vehicles4

Transport Managers​


Name
GLYN ADRIAN MATTHEWS

Related operator licences​

There are no related licences

You can view the licence at https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/view-details/licence/317474
 

Robertj21a

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if the programme has to be paid for, I’d say that is flat illegal. I’d refuse to let my buses be used for service on that basis, as if the authorities got involved it would be the vehicle owners who would be prosecuted.

I’m possibly the only one contributing to this thread who actually owns vintage buses, so here’s my take… [EDIT] I see that at least one other vehicle owner has posted up thread, my apologies.

I like giving rides, in moderation. Someone mentioned how seeing old buses brings joy, I like nothing more than driving one of my buses and a mum points it out to her children, who wave, and if possible I wave back. Giving rides is a bit like that, on boost. But it has to be in moderation: I didn’t spend thousands on restoring two vintage buses so I could wear them out again.

As someone else has said, the NARTM guide is the bible. A bucket is soliciting money, so is illegal. So is requiring some kind of condition before boarding (Rout v Swallow Hotels Ltd, 1992) such as buying a programme or site entrance ticket.

It’s just hard luck - if you need to take money in a bucket, then one wonders why you’re in the hobby. It’s not a cheap hobby unless you’re at the ‘buy it, run it till it breaks’ margin and not taking money means that I owe no obligation to anyone; annual testing is much easier (in fact both my buses are MOT exempt but I get a voluntary test); and insurance is much cheaper.

What does trouble me slightly is the sense of entitlement that some enthusiasts have. The one who would rather take pics at the end of the museum’s entrance road rather than pay to come in; the one who brings sandwiches and a flask rather than paying for lunch in the museum’s tea room; the one who doesn’t buy a programme. Best quote I’ve heard? “I don’t need to pay and come inside your museum, I paid three years ago so I don’t need to come in again.” Oh well, that’s a good job as it cost money to put on the event three years ago but we’ve run this one on fresh air…?
To be fair, some photographers will see liitle point in entering the site, their photos will be far better some way away from the entrance. Once parked inside it will be more difficult to get the bus in proper light, with no shadows from other vehicles - and also without other attendees/children getting in the way.
 

L401CJF

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That is all very altruistic of you, and no criticism. But not everyone is as financially flush, either at the start of their preservation project or further down their life. Saying 'the hobby is not for you' is a little selfish and no doubt reduces the number of vehicles that may be otherwise preserved.
I say it because it is a luxury. The reason I sold the bus to my brother in the first place was because circumstances in my life changed and I could no longer afford it financially.

Maybe I should have started a gofundme page like some others do and get others to fund my hobby for me! Sorry if its blunt, but the cost is a huge commitment as is the time to maintain/restore them. I would never in a million years expect others to help financially with my own personal projects.

Just my personal view, but we've never taken on vehicles for the pleasure of others, while we enjoy sharing them with others in the form of running days, the whole thing is for our personal enjoyment and nobody but the owners responsibility to cough up the cash and pay for them.
 

Titfield

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What does trouble me slightly is the sense of entitlement that some enthusiasts have. The one who would rather take pics at the end of the museum’s entrance road rather than pay to come in; the one who brings sandwiches and a flask rather than paying for lunch in the museum’s tea room; the one who doesn’t buy a programme. Best quote I’ve heard? “I don’t need to pay and come inside your museum, I paid three years ago so I don’t need to come in again.” Oh well, that’s a good job as it cost money to put on the event three years ago but we’ve run this one on fresh air…?

At the risk of being inflammatory but this sort of thing happens all the time. Loads of people go to a beach or other beauty spot and dont buy anything to contribute to the local economy. Is there any real difference in that behaviour and the one outlined above? BTW beaches and beauty spots do not look after themselves. Not only are councils cash strapped and cant afford to do as much as they would like, but in many sea side towns there are bands of volunteers who do regular Sunday morning cleans, picking up litter etc etc.

The reality is that event organisers "hope" that by one way or another enough people make a financial contribution to allow the event to take place. There will always be people who dont make a contribution but that is a fact of life. There are always "takers" and thankfully there are "givers".

Consider another more obtuse example? How many of those rescued by the RNLI make a worthwhile contribution, how many yachties or boaties make a contribution to what is, contrary to what the AA may have you believe, is the 4th emergency service?
 

Roger1973

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if the programme has to be paid for, I’d say that is flat illegal. I’d refuse to let my buses be used for service on that basis, as if the authorities got involved it would be the vehicle owners who would be prosecuted.

Yes - although the event organisers could probably be prosecuted for 'aiding and abetting' that offence.

Some events try and get round it by having the main 'bus terminus' inside the 'paid for' site and an additional bus stop (when there might or might not be any space left on the bus) somewhere public.

As I said yesterday, until someone's prosecuted for one or more of the 'grey areas' then they will stay 'grey areas'. But I don't want to be the test case as a driver or organiser.

We usually carry a Clatterbridge Cancer Hospital donation bucket when we attend shows. If passengers want to donate a few quid then it can go to a good cause. In the past we have got a few mates together and gone to a rally further afield, in which case we have all chipped in a few quid for the fuel to get there and again the Clatterbidge charity bucket has come out for the punters.

I'm not a lawyer or in any way involved in law enforcement, but I think you might be on thin ice here if you're soliciting donations (even for something not connected with the bus) on board. The sort of thing that often happens in London, where a company turns out a Routemaster for red nose day / children in need day / Remembrance day / whatever else day and solicits donations, involves a bus that's licensed as a PSV running under a PSV operator's licence.

To be fair, some photographers will see liitle point in entering the site, their photos will be far better some way away from the entrance. Once parked inside it will be more difficult to get the bus in proper light, with no shadows from other vehicles - and also without other attendees/children getting in the way.

From a photography point of view, i agree - I've seen some collections of photos from running day events that consist only of close-ups of buses in the parking area, and do wonder quite why they bother. Although it's their choice.

Ultimately, it's up to them, but if everyone decides they are happy to let someone else pay for it all, then quite bluntly the event won't happen. plenty of people manage to buy a programme / museum admission and still spend much of the day travelling and / or taking photographs. And the programme might make it easier to know what bus is going where when.

but I’ll admit organisers don’t always make doing so overly easy for those who have genuine motivation for be offsite during an event.

As above, and making donations off-site (unless you do it online or by post before or after the event) isn't simple. Organisers shouldn't solicit donations on buses, and I think you need some sort of permit to do a collection - even if you are a registered charity which not all event organisers are - on the public highway.

The reality is that event organisers "hope" that by one way or another enough people make a financial contribution to allow the event to take place. There will always be people who dont make a contribution but that is a fact of life. There are always "takers" and thankfully there are "givers".

Indeed - you can drive yourself up the wall, and make the event a whole lot worse for 'paying customers' in an attempt to deter 'freeloaders.' There have been one or two events where the organisers have put very little advance information online, presumably deliberately to encourage visitors to buy a programme on the day, but there has been so little information I've not been sure if would be worth going, or where I should go to catch buses if I had gone.
 

jp4712

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At the risk of being inflammatory but this sort of thing happens all the time. <snip>
You're right, it does, but in fairness it's a fairly small number and most people do put their hands in their pockets to some extent. I think I was thinking of a couple of well-known individuals who show up at every event, never come inside, never buy a programme etc. They're egregious examples but you can't let people like that colour your view of people in general.

Anyway, back to the topic - should preserved buses be able to charge? I can only speak for myself, I'd say 'on a voluntary basis' e.g. a bucket at the exit. I enjoy giving rides, for me that's reward enough, but a few quid to help buy diesel would be nice. But I wouldn't feel comfortable charging a fare as such, if I did that then I'm sure local bus operators would be entitled to ask what the difference is between a MOT class 5 tested preserved bus* and a professionally operated class 6 bus with far more stringent requirements.

* or possibly not tested at all, if they're more than 40 years old. Both of mine fulfil that criterion but I never do free bus services unless I've submitted them for a voluntary class 5, in line with NARTM guidelines.
 

GusB

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To clarify, NARTM is the National Association of Road Transport Museums.

Please remember that any jargon should be defined in your posts. Thanks :)
 

Busaholic

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We participated in an event last weekend connecting a number of local pubs. The pubs had organised family entertainment, bbqs etc and promoted it heavily. Organisers had 300 programmes and sold out with much greater demand even after they’d sold out. It had been organised jointly between a couple of local preservationists and a few local landlords.
It was only the second year of a new event, last year in year 1 they only sold 150.
Very few enthusiasts and majority of the travellers were local public. They showed a greater interest in the vehicles with lots of questions we don’t get from enthusiasts, as the majority knew nothing about heritage buses.
The ever-popular Penzance Running Day has absolutely no problem selling the programmes,in fact they used to run out early at one time. Again, ordinary members of the public including many families attend every year and even the enthusiasts appear on the whole to be well-adjusted people imo, unlike at some more 'specialist' events.
 

L401CJF

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I'm not a lawyer or in any way involved in law enforcement, but I think you might be on thin ice here if you're soliciting donations (even for something not connected with the bus) on board. The sort of thing that often happens in London, where a company turns out a Routemaster for red nose day / children in need day / Remembrance day / whatever else day and solicits donations, involves a bus that's licensed as a PSV running under a PSV operator's llicence.
I do agree here, the reason we put a charity donation bucket on is basically because there's always some people who like to donate some change. If the bucket isn't on they pop it on the cash tray, I've had them in the past refuse to take it back insisting we keep it! We have the bucket on the basis that it looks better throwing change in there when we don't benefit from it, than picking the change up straight into our pocket.

The amount actually donated is minimal, the last time we handed the bucket back to the charity after 2 running days we didn't even raise £20!

I agree with the legal technicalities however.

There are some running days where the organisers actually give you a donation bucket to put on the bus- the annual new year's day Wrexham to Chester running day being one of them. This particular running day raises funds for a local charity and gets some good press in the local papers. The North West Vehicle Restoration Trust have their own donation buckets on buses at their running day, presumably funds go back to the trust but not something I'd be overly comfortable with.

A few years back I did a trip or 2 at a rally at the Dewsbury bus museum, the bloke from the museum was onboard giving me route directions, actively shaking his bucket at the punters when they were all alighting- again not something I agree with!
 

341o2

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No you don’t
Well, then, someone at the rally was giving out incorrect information, at least by implication. What I heard was "buy a programme to ride on the buses"
 
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Martin1988

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I noticed the Isle Of Wight Beer and Buses event got mentioned earlier on in this thread. From what I could gather the person who took us to this event stated they didn't like it due to the fact they were told by the organisers they couldn't ask for donations. They felt it was unfair that they were expected to carry a load of 'piss heads' and not get anything back.

Obviously they weren't legally allowed to ask for donations but I did sympathise with them. Carrying people who had been drinking presumably creates its own set of challenges. What if for example someone had been sick on board the vehicle or there had been an anti-social behaviour incident on board? Would the owner of the vehicle have been responsible for sorting it all out themself?

At another event I went to about 5 years ago at an operator's depot, our driver was offered the chance to refuel his vehicle using the depot's fueling equipment. Not sure if they paid or were given some free fuel but if it was the latter am guessing it helped them to keep their costs down.
 

Dai Corner

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I noticed the Isle Of Wight Beer and Buses event got mentioned earlier on in this thread. From what I could gather the person who took us to this event stated they didn't like it due to the fact they were told by the organisers they couldn't ask for donations. They felt it was unfair that they were expected to carry a load of 'piss heads' and not get anything back.

Obviously they weren't legally allowed to ask for donations but I did sympathise with them. Carrying people who had been drinking presumably creates its own set of challenges. What if for example someone had been sick on board the vehicle or there had been an anti-social behaviour incident on board? Would the owner of the vehicle have been responsible for sorting it all out themself?
I wonder why he went then?
 

WibbleWobble

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At another event I went to about 5 years ago at an operator's depot, our driver was offered the chance to refuel his vehicle using the depot's fueling equipment. Not sure if they paid or were given some free fuel but if it was the latter am guessing it helped them to keep their costs down.
I've been to depot open days where visiting buses were tanked up as a thank you to the owners for bringing them along.
 

northwichcat

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I suspect many of the public believe these events are in some way funded and dont always realise its voluntary.

Agreed. Certain attractions and events are free to enter but get funding from tax payers (either from the government or local council). I went into a museum recently. It has free admission due to getting government funding but in the reception there were signs encouraging you to buy the £5 guidebook and then inside the actual museum contactless charging points taking £5 donations.

Others are free due to sponsor branding or because business' exhibiting will generate more revenue from extra sales, than it costs to run.

You can't presume an average member of the public thinks you're running a free event but you need them to part with £5 for a programme for it to break even.

Perhaps a more formal events website, or even a forum where people can subscribe to each event is a way forwards…?

Again agreed. On many event websites you could easily advertise free tickets and then add the option of adding a £5 programme, to collect on the day. Using this option means you know exactly how many programmes you need (no wasted printing and everyone who wants one being able to purchase one) and know how many people to expect.

Many organisations which rely on volunteers (heritage railways, National Trust, RNLI, hospital car service, charity shops - the list goes on) have reported a huge drop in volunteer numbers post covid. Many volunteers simply havent returned. There seems to be a multitude of reasons but COVID has seemed to have given many many people an opportunity to think about their lives and a considerable number have chosen to cease volunteering. Very sad indeed.

Not necessarily. COVID scared people off volunteering in-person and people started looking at remote or flexible volunteering. In fact, when many people were on furlough the numbers volunteering were at record levels, even when charity shops and National Trust attractions were closed. Also, working aged people are increasingly using volunteering to build skills, rather than just for good causes. It might also be Job Centres are now less reluctant to reject remote volunteering. When I was unemployed in 2018 a job coach tried to push me into a volunteering role at a place that upcycles furniture. That had no relevance on my future career plans. Even though the founder of a charity had provisionally offered me a role creating graphics for her charity, the job coach wasn't having it as it would have involved volunteering remotely.
 

Roger1973

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747
Location
Berkshire
Again agreed. On many event websites you could easily advertise free tickets and then add the option of adding a £5 programme, to collect on the day. Using this option means you know exactly how many programmes you need (no wasted printing and everyone who wants one being able to purchase one) and know how many people to expect.

Interesting idea, and some events do offer programme sales by post before the event, which is not a bad idea if you've got the people to stuff envelopes and post them, although the further in advance you commit a programme to print, the longer the list of service / bus changes will be on the day.

The idea of making it impossible to buy programmes on the day doesn't seem that good an idea, though, as some people for whatever reason won't be in a position to commit far enough in advance, and some local residents won't know it's happening until they see the buses going past. Although it may be a 'better than nothing' option for events where having any sort of control point / stall on the day isn't possible.

Not necessarily. COVID scared people off volunteering in-person and people started looking at remote or flexible volunteering.

Yes, but things like bus running days need more in person volunteers on the day than remote volunteers in advance, and getting vehicles prepared and cleaned still needs in-person volunteers in advance. (Not that I am under-estimating or overlooking the amount of work that does have to be done in advance!)

As with most things, experience will vary from one organisation to another. Some volunteer organisations are more welcoming than others to 'newcomers' and 'youngsters' (the age at which you're regarded as a 'youngster' can increase by 12 months every year in some organisations with a long established 'closed shop' committee.)

And it's fair to say that many volunteer organisations have for the last couple of decades relied a lot on a generation where early retirement on a good pension was a lot more common than it's likely to be in the future.
 

Robertj21a

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22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,685
Interesting idea, and some events do offer programme sales by post before the event, which is not a bad idea if you've got the people to stuff envelopes and post them, although the further in advance you commit a programme to print, the longer the list of service / bus changes will be on the day.

The idea of making it impossible to buy programmes on the day doesn't seem that good an idea, though, as some people for whatever reason won't be in a position to commit far enough in advance, and some local residents won't know it's happening until they see the buses going past. Although it may be a 'better than nothing' option for events where having any sort of control point / stall on the day isn't possible.



Yes, but things like bus running days need more in person volunteers on the day than remote volunteers in advance, and getting vehicles prepared and cleaned still needs in-person volunteers in advance. (Not that I am under-estimating or overlooking the amount of work that does have to be done in advance!)

As with most things, experience will vary from one organisation to another. Some volunteer organisations are more welcoming than others to 'newcomers' and 'youngsters' (the age at which you're regarded as a 'youngster' can increase by 12 months every year in some organisations with a long established 'closed shop' committee.)

And it's fair to say that many volunteer organisations have for the last couple of decades relied a lot on a generation where early retirement on a good pension was a lot more common than it's likely to be in the future.
We may need to move forward with the times. Many younger enthusiasts won't want hard copy printed programmes anyway - they tend to use their PC or smart phone for everything. Why not offer an online programme for, say, £5 as it can be charged for, and then viewed, at any time.
 
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