Preserved bus events. do we need a law change to allow charging

[Roger1973]

We may need to move forward with the times. Many younger enthusiasts won't want hard copy printed programmes anyway - they tend to use their PC or smart phone for everything. Why not offer an online programme for, say, £5 as it can be charged for, and then viewed, at any time.

Interesting idea - not aware of any event that does this yet. Although some organising groups might struggle with the technology here. (Some events can't handle non cash payments on the day, although the cost and practicalities of getting the kit for maybe one or two days' use a year may be an obstacle here.)

Although some event organisers are reluctant to do even printed programmes in advance, as while there's nothing to stop friends sharing a printed programme on the day, making it available in advance makes it much easier to scan or photocopy the 'useful' bit and share it more widely. Making it available electronically is going to make it even easier to share.

Again comes in to the balance of not making things too easy for the freeloaders without making it too difficult for those who are prepared to pay...

 

[LUYMun]

We may need to move forward with the times. Many younger enthusiasts won't want hard copy printed programmes anyway - they tend to use their PC or smart phone for everything. Why not offer an online programme for, say, £5 as it can be charged for, and then viewed, at any time.

I would disagree, speaking as a younger enthusiast. Yesterday I’ve attended the ‘Low-ish Floor Running Day’, where the organisers published a timetable in advance in digital format at no cost. While the event was attended by mainly younger enthusiasts (in reflection to the vehicles’ age), I noted some of them had gone the effort of printing them out. Yes, most in this demographic were using their phones, myself included, but the availability of a paper copy makes it easier to highlight journeys completed (or crossing off cancelled journeys, as was there were some cases that day) without sacrificing data storage or battery consumption, or making do within the limitations of photo editing software. This is in contrast with my observations at the LBM’s Spring Gathering, which saw the majority of younger enthusiasts obtain a paper copy upon entrance.

The ”everything’s online” mentality does get around the bus industry a lot, as it’s the common argument for phasing out paper timetables. For what the attendees would rely on for information is correspondent with the availability of the media format. In other words, if event organisers chose to publish information through digital platforms, attendees would use their phones to check the times on that day. If event organisers chose to print paper programmes, attendees would be holding one in their hands!

 

[markymark2000]

Interesting idea - not aware of any event that does this yet. Although some organising groups might struggle with the technology here. (Some events can't handle non cash payments on the day, although the cost and practicalities of getting the kit for maybe one or two days' use a year may be an obstacle here.)

Although some event organisers are reluctant to do even printed programmes in advance, as while there's nothing to stop friends sharing a printed programme on the day, making it available in advance makes it much easier to scan or photocopy the 'useful' bit and share it more widely. Making it available electronically is going to make it even easier to share.

Again comes in to the balance of not making things too easy for the freeloaders without making it too difficult for those who are prepared to pay...

After the online purchase, everyone gets an email receipt, that's just standard in the world. What you could do is say 'upon showing the email receipt to reception/cafe/ticket office, whatever, we will check your details and issue you an allocation list for the timetable'. The event says 'Joe bloggs has had his allocation sheet handed to him, no more allocation sheets for joe bloggs'. That means the allocation list is up to date as well as it is printed that day. People get their electronic programme and there is no worrying about people screenshotting and sharing the allocation list.

Or they could email out the allocation list out, on the day, at the same time that the event starts. Then it doesn't give people much time to plan all of their journeys but it's no different in time to turning up at the gates and buying a programme there and then. Yes it can be shared but at 9/10am on the day, it's not going to be shared half as much as sending it out days in advance.



What bugs me with the events is when they don't advertise their timetables in advance. I, like many younger people, don't drive. I rely on public transport to get to the events and as I am sure you will all be aware, some of the events aren't in the most accessible locations. If timetables were sent out, I would happily go out and then catch the shuttle buses into the event but with the absence of the timetable, what time do I go to my bus stop for the bus? How long do I sit there just in case? If timetables are available, I can plan my day around that. Whether it be getting to/from the event or planning to go between different routes. Even when you're at the events, you go from event to wherever the bus is going, I daren't get off as I never know when the next bus will be, I have to do a round trip. NWVRT (North West Vehicle Restoration Trust) is a laugh for that sort of thing. They have 4 bus routes I think (Industrial estate circular, Kirkby, Prescot and Liverpool City Centre) and you never know what bus, if any will be going out next. Where it will be going. You get on a bus which you think is the Prescot bus and end up doing a lap of the industrial estate. It's strange really as the events are for bus enthusiasts yet they target it all at people arriving by car rather than by public transport or their own shuttle buses.

 

[Roger1973]

After the online purchase, everyone gets an email receipt, that's just standard in the world. What you could do is say 'upon showing the email receipt to reception/cafe/ticket office, whatever, we will check your details and issue you an allocation list for the timetable'. The event says 'Joe bloggs has had his allocation sheet handed to him, no more allocation sheets for joe bloggs'. That means the allocation list is up to date as well as it is printed that day. People get their electronic programme and there is no worrying about people screenshotting and sharing the allocation list.

In all honesty, that sounds like it would take a lot longer (and require the ticket office to be just one person at a time rather than multiple programme sellers) than the traditional cash payment for programmes.

Or they could email out the allocation list out, on the day, at the same time that the event starts. Then it doesn't give people much time to plan all of their journeys but it's no different in time to turning up at the gates and buying a programme there and then. Yes it can be shared but at 9/10am on the day, it's not going to be shared half as much as sending it out days in advance.

Could work, although there will then be people arguing they didn't get the e-mail and all sorts.

What bugs me with the events is when they don't advertise their timetables in advance.

Indeed. As I think I said earlier, there's been one or two events that have sounded possibly interesting, but there was so little info in advance that I wasn't sure if it would be worth going, and ended up not going.

One event I was once involved with, the organising committee nearly decided that no information about the bus services should be made available in advance (because of the 'freeloader' issue) - that would have meant not saying where the shuttle bus from the railway station or the park and ride would run from, what times they would start or finish, or how frequent they would be.

That did get argued down, but it was a close run thing...

 

[markymark2000]

In all honesty, that sounds like it would take a lot longer (and require the ticket office to be just one person at a time rather than multiple programme sellers) than the traditional cash payment for programmes.

Google sheets can be edited by multiple people at once.

Could work, although there will then be people arguing they didn't get the e-mail and all sorts.

That is always going to be a problem with the technical side but if it's aimed towards the younger audience then they will put the right details in in the first place so it's less likely to go wrong. Yes there could be issues but generally if everyone has put in the correct details, there are very few issues. It must be 1 in hundreds where there technical issues which are the fault of the technology, it's generally a user issue at either end.

 

[Djb1]

I don't attend rallies, so if this may already be a thing - would a solution to the donation box be a crowdfunding poster/link on the vehicle?

Given that most preserved vehicles are financed out of the owners pocket (be it fuel, repairs or refurbishment) - donations to the next project on the vehicle (as long as the crowdfunder specifies what it is) would surely help offset any fuel costs without falling foul of any business legislation?

 

[jp4712]

I don't attend rallies, so if this may already be a thing - would a solution to the donation box be a crowdfunding poster/link on the vehicle?

Given that most preserved vehicles are financed out of the owners pocket (be it fuel, repairs or refurbishment) - donations to the next project on the vehicle (as long as the crowdfunder specifies what it is) would surely help offset any fuel costs without falling foul of any business legislation?

It’s a good question and I don’t know - I just don’t fancy being the case law precedent when charges are brought!!

incidentally, I plan to take my newly-restored Bristol RESL6G to the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Trust event at Lytham Hall on Sunday 6 August: feel free to say hello and have a look on board (with no donation bucket…).

 

[lloyd.penfold@]

I always buy a programme, drink, food and something from the trade stalls and make a donation.

Why wouldn't you?

On behalf of organisers, thank you. I have noticed however that some "enthusiasts" visiting a local museum don't even pay to go in, but stand on the roads and lanes nearby photographing every bus that passes. Photos that are later for sale on a well-known on-line auction site. Of those that do come in, some are downright rude (photographers shouting "Get out of the way" to members of the non-enthusiast public who are admiring the vehicles) or stealing from the souvenir shop (yes, seen it happen). Only a very small number, but the one bad apple leaves a bitter taste.

Entry fees help cover the cost of running the museum and giving the free rides, but the buses also pick up outside of the 'compound' so they can still ride without paying to go in. If it happens too much, the rides will have to reduce or eventually, the museum close. There are a few museums and collections which, following COVID lockdowns are in danger of going under, costs don't stop even if the public are forced to stay away.

As for donation buckets on buses, it is a grey area legally, and eventually one luckless bus owner is going to be faced with the cost of a test case.

To carry fare-paying passengers the driver must hold a PCV licence, the bus must be class VI MOT tested (the over 40 years old exemption does NOT count here) and may or may not need to pay PCV road fund duty (over 40 years old? another grey area) depending on the enforcement officers in the nearby district. As above, grey areas will eventually end up as a test case.

Sorry to waffle on, but I have over half a century in bus preservation and worry about exactly where it will head in the future.

 

[Merle Haggard]

photographers shouting "Get out of the way" to members of the non-enthusiast public who are admiring the vehicles)

I've had photographers shouting that at me when I've been standing in front of a bus explaining a detail to someone who asks.
Particularly irritating as it's my bus I'm standing in front of. If I wasn't there, the bus wouldn't be there to photograph.

Perhaps not quite as irritating as the people who just get on my bus - sometimes pushing past my friends and me - without invitation or asking. Often with children who treat it as an adventure playground.

The modern world of entitlement.

 

[Titfield]

As for donation buckets on buses, it is a grey area legally, and eventually one luckless bus owner is going to be faced with the cost of a test case.

To carry fare-paying passengers the driver must hold a PCV licence, the bus must be class VI MOT tested (the over 40 years old exemption does NOT count here) and may or may not need to pay PCV road fund duty (over 40 years old? another grey area) depending on the enforcement officers in the nearby district. As above, grey areas will eventually end up as a test case.

Sorry to waffle on, but I have over half a century in bus preservation and worry about exactly where it will head in the future.

The Traffic Commissioners and the DVSA have greater priorities at the moment but god forbid there to be some form of accident in which someone was injured or worse.

An O licence would also be required with all that entails.

As someone on the periphery of bus preservation (life long interest and once owner of a bus) I also worry about the future. The costs of bus preservation have rocketed in recent years and there seem to be few younger (relatively speaking) willing and able to purchase vehicles when the their current owner wishes to / has to pass on the baton of ownership.

 

[duncombec]

As someone on the periphery of bus preservation (life long interest and once owner of a bus) I also worry about the future. The costs of bus preservation have rocketed in recent years and there seem to be few younger (relatively speaking) willing and able to purchase vehicles when the their current owner wishes to / has to pass on the baton of ownership.

Preservation is a labour of love, and as I think someone said up thread, if you were in it for the money, you'd be running a bus company, not a preserved bus to events.

The "young person" issue comes into that: in my experience, people are most inclined to preserve buses that mean something to them - the ones they went to school on, the ones they drove in service, the ones they met their wives on, etc etc. There are an ever increasing number of younger enthusiasts getting involved in preservation, but they are preserving vehicles that mean something to them - Enviros, Olympians, Darts and, as we saw here a few days ago, Excels. Simply put, why would today's 20-something year olds be interested in taking over the responsibility for a vehicle that was already in preservation before they were born, just because it's 'old', but means nothing to them other than being just that 'an old bus'?

Eventually, there will be a thinning out of vehicles of a certain era, as recorded on the Preserved Vehicles That Were Scrapped thread - as their owners get older, more will be used as spares to keep a select number of others mobile, or at least complete museum pieces. Likewise, in 50 years time, the young preservationists will be working out how to preserve battery or electric powered vehicles, wondering why anybody can get excited about that manky old Olympythingy.

 

[Martin1988]

Something else I'm rather curious about. Are there any rules about organisers of vintage bus events from running a route which competes with a regular registered service? Does that require liaising with the relevant operators and/or local authorities as to what the stopping arrangements for the 'heritage' service will be?

 

[richw]

and there seem to be few younger (relatively speaking) willing and able to purchase vehicles when the their current owner wishes to / has to pass on the baton of ownership.

Plenty of youngsters coming and participating in our preservation group. All seem willing to get stuck in and help with tasks, watching and assisting and learning with the oldies.
They seem more interested in the younger vehicles though. It seems very much a lot of people are interested in the vehicles from the area and era they attended school.
I had VRs and early step entrance darts as school buses. These are the type of vehicle I enjoy in the preservation world. The 20 something enthusiast now seem interested in the tridents and low floor darts.
I fear the older vehicles will struggle to find custodians in years to come. People of my age seem to have little interest in 60s stuff

 

[RJ]

The other matter to consider is insurance. If charging, a policy that includes hire and reward is required really. Would the fares collected exceed the outlay?

 

[Roger1973]

Something else I'm rather curious about. Are there any rules about organisers of vintage bus events from running a route which competes with a regular registered service? Does that require liaising with the relevant operators and/or local authorities as to what the stopping arrangements for the 'heritage' service will be?

As there isn't any law specifically prohibiting bus running days, and it's not being run as part of a business, I don't think there's specifically a rule / law about this. Case law has held that if a PSV operator puts on 'predatory competition' (e.g. artificially low fares / operating free services, in order to run an incumbent operator off the road) then that can come under competition law.

I believe the NARTM guidance that's been mentioned above advised trying not to get in the way of commercial services, and some events I've been involved in have scheduled the vintage service in a way that (on paper at least) is timed to run after the 'real' bus service not in front of it.

Having said that, some events (I'm thinking the high frequency events that take place in London a few times a year) both the vintage and normal service are sufficiently high frequency and in unpredictable traffic for it to be pretty much a free for all.

Most organisers of running days try to maintain good relations with the local bus operator/s so would not try to abstract their fare paying passengers.

As regards stopping arrangements, it depends what the traffic regulation order/s are for the stops - in some areas, only registered local buses are allowed to use some stops (see also bus lanes / local bus lanes) so some liaison with the council is not a bad idea.

Plenty of youngsters coming and participating in our preservation group. All seem willing to get stuck in and help with tasks, watching and assisting and learning with the oldies.
They seem more interested in the younger vehicles though. It seems very much a lot of people are interested in the vehicles from the area and era they attended school.
I had VRs and early step entrance darts as school buses. These are the type of vehicle I enjoy in the preservation world. The 20 something enthusiast now seem interested in the tridents and low floor darts.
I fear the older vehicles will struggle to find custodians in years to come. People of my age seem to have little interest in 60s stuff

Maybe. It is a generational thing - I am told that in the 70s, there were some preservationists who were not impressed about people buying 1950s buses straight out of service when there were still some pre-war buses in scrapyards in need of rescuing.

It can depend very much on the group / owners - sadly it's not unknown (obviously not universal though) for younger volunteers to be made to feel thoroughly unwelcome at preservation groups / museums, and in some cases, the definition of 'younger member' increases by 12 months every year in the eyes of the incumbent committee / clique.

And then there's driver training / familiarisation with older vehicles. It's fair to say that a recent PCV test does not equip you to deal with a 'crash' (non synchromesh) gearbox, 1920s petrol engine, pre-select gearbox, or even a semi automatic if you've trained on a bus with push-button automatic gear selection. Some groups take a 'sink or swim' policy, which is not really in the best interests of the vehicle or the driver, others have a 'you can't drive this bus unless you've got experience of driving this bus' approach, which leads to a steadily dwindling pool of drivers for the older buses.

But some do take driver training / familiarisation seriously. And there are relatively young bus drivers and conductors at some events.

The other matter to consider is insurance. If charging, a policy that includes hire and reward is required really. Would the fares collected exceed the outlay?

Yes - with this and the O-Licence, which has costs, it does add up, and running for a few days a year would not stack up. Making money from running heritage buses is really not easy across the whole year, even if you do wedding hires fairly solidly during the wedding season.

 

[richw]

It can depend very much on the group / owners - sadly it's not unknown (obviously not universal though) for younger volunteers to be made to feel thoroughly unwelcome at preservation groups / museums, and in some cases, the definition of 'younger member' increases by 12 months every year in the eyes of the incumbent committee / clique.

And then there's driver training / familiarisation with older vehicles. It's fair to say that a recent PCV test does not equip you to deal with a 'crash' (non synchromesh) gearbox, 1920s petrol engine, pre-select gearbox, or even a semi automatic if you've trained on a bus with push-button automatic gear selection. Some groups take a 'sink or swim' policy, which is not really in the best interests of the vehicle or the driver, others have a 'you can't drive this bus unless you've got experience of driving this bus' approach, which leads to a steadily dwindling pool of drivers for the older buses.

The group I’m a member of has made the youngsters very welcome.
Several of the 18-25 contingent even go on the groups annual weekend jolly to the Isle of Wight.
They’ve taught us younger PCV drivers to drive anything we’ve wanted to learn to drive. Because the older stuff doesn’t interest me, I got trained on the semi auto VRs. I’ll name them as they are such a friendly group. Cornwall bus preservation society.

I joined a couple of heritage groups who were very clicky and didn’t make outsiders welcome. They didn’t get my membership renewed!

 

[Ken H]

Isn't a problem with older buses the disability regulations? Converting some of these old vehicles for wheelchair access would destroy the vehicle.

 

[Hullian111]

Isn't a problem with older buses the disability regulations? Converting some of these old vehicles for wheelchair access would destroy the vehicle.

If I remember correctly, a non-PSVAR-compliant bus can run a public bus service for up to 20 days until the operator is fined. Don't think its a problem so much with heritage running days, though, as they only run for two of three days of the year.

 

[Roger1973]

If I remember correctly, a non-PSVAR-compliant bus can run a public bus service for up to 20 days until the operator is fined. Don't think its a problem so much with heritage running days, though, as they only run for two of three days of the year.

Yes, I think something like that is the case. I understand that in their later years of operating a summer Minehead - Lynmouth route as a registered local bus service, Quantock Motor Services (or whatever they were calling themselves by then) rotated what buses were used, so that each vehicle operated a maximum of 20 days a year. And of course their publicity made it clear that the buses were not accessible. I understand that they continued another year or so on the basis of it being an 'excursion' and outside the requirements for local service registration.

There may be some exemption from this if something is considered a tourist service (I know there are some exemptions from concessionary pass acceptance.)

There is now regular Routemaster operation in central London outside the TFL remit, and I don't think they rotate vehicles. When the 'heritage' 9 and 15 were run under TFL's contract, I think the exemption was on the basis of them being supplementary to the regular service. I'm not quite sure what the current operation's exemption is, but would have thought it must have one. Similarly the 'afternoon tea' tour buses which have become a thing in the last few years - these probably operate as a circular tour from one point, so may not count as 'local bus'. (I've never had to get involved with the detail of the rules for this sort of thing in London, so I'm not expert on the detail.)

Heritage running days are (generally) not registered local bus services, and usually involve at least some buses that don't run under a PSV operator licence, so this wouldn't be an issue, even if any particular bus does more than 20 (different) events a year.

 

[richw]

Yes, I think something like that is the case. I understand that in their later years of operating a summer Minehead - Lynmouth route as a registered local bus service, Quantock Motor Services (or whatever they were calling themselves by then) rotated what buses were used, so that each vehicle operated a maximum of 20 days a year. And of course their publicity made it clear that the buses were not accessible. I understand that they continued another year or so on the basis of it being an 'excursion' and outside the requirements for local service registration.

There may be some exemption from this if something is considered a tourist service (I know there are some exemptions from concessionary pass acceptance.)

There is now regular Routemaster operation in central London outside the TFL remit, and I don't think they rotate vehicles. When the 'heritage' 9 and 15 were run under TFL's contract, I think the exemption was on the basis of them being supplementary to the regular service. I'm not quite sure what the current operation's exemption is, but would have thought it must have one. Similarly the 'afternoon tea' tour buses which have become a thing in the last few years - these probably operate as a circular tour from one point, so may not count as 'local bus'. (I've never had to get involved with the detail of the rules for this sort of thing in London, so I'm not expert on the detail.)

Heritage running days are (generally) not registered local bus services, and usually involve at least some buses that don't run under a PSV operator licence, so this wouldn't be an issue, even if any particular bus does more than 20 (different) events a year.

On the last year of the Jurassic Mule we had to rotate vehicles to ensure all was within the 20 days. We hired in extra vehicles from Chepstow classics and Dan Shears to achieve compliance

 

[Flange Squeal]

Yes, I think something like that is the case. I understand that in their later years of operating a summer Minehead - Lynmouth route as a registered local bus service, Quantock Motor Services (or whatever they were calling themselves by then) rotated what buses were used, so that each vehicle operated a maximum of 20 days a year. And of course their publicity made it clear that the buses were not accessible. I understand that they continued another year or so on the basis of it being an 'excursion' and outside the requirements for local service registration.

There may be some exemption from this if something is considered a tourist service (I know there are some exemptions from concessionary pass acceptance.)

More recently, Seven Sisters Bus & Coach operated a 197 this summer between Eastbourne and Pevensey Castle. The plan was weekends end of May to early July, then daily during the school summer holidays. An exemption to use non-accessible heritage vehicles was applied for but delayed in being granted (the dispensation finally being granted towards the end of August, just as it was being wrapped up), meaning in the end heritage buses were still used but the route ran only on weekends for most of that planned period using two vehicles rotated to comply with the 20 day ruling on each.