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Prioritisation of the Welsh and English languages in Wales

styles

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Splitting off from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfw-language-policy.286010/page-4#post-7282414

I agree! However with English being spoken so widely there is less incentive for us to learn other languages, and as before, which should we learn?



I agree with that too! However it has been shown that many Welsh people do not actually speak Welsh, therefore, as I suggested previously, Welsh announcements first where it is the dominant language, otherwise English first.

Indeed, there will be an inevitable 'cut-off' point.

The examples given in this thread of GPs etc who don't speak excellent English I think are a distraction. To become a GP requires going to university (say aged 18 to be conservative), typically 5 years for an accredited medicine degree, 2 years foundation training, 3+ years GP specialism training. So the starting age of a GP is going to be in their late 20s/early 30s. If the education system in Wales failed to develop fluent English in people in their early 30s, this isn't an issue with the current education system - it's an issue with the education system 15-25 years ago.



The statutory curriculum in Wales requires both English and Welsh to be taught until age 16. There's really no reason people studying in Gwynedd are to be hampered in their English language learning.

I should say at this point though - I think this post maybe ought to be split off, as I fear we're well away from the original topic of the order of TfW train announcements.

Felt it was a bit of a distraction from the topic of TfW announcements.
 
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Harpo

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A thread that should be the preserve of the Welsh?
 
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BingMan

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I often wonder why in Scotland, unlike Wales, there is no great pressure to have people speak a local language. Why there are no bi-lingual road signs in Scotland
 

PeterC

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I often wonder why in Scotland, unlike Wales, there is no great pressure to have people speak a local language. Why there are no bi-lingual road signs in Scotland
Which two of the three official spoken languages are you suggesting?
 

Krokodil

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I often wonder why in Scotland, unlike Wales, there is no great pressure to have people speak a local language. Why there are no bi-lingual road signs in Scotland
The Welsh language survived with minimal interference until the 19th century whereas Anglicisation in Scotland can trace its origins as far back as Malcolm III's marriage to Margaret of Wessex in the 11th century. That's why Gaelic only really survived in remote areas.
 

JamesT

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I often wonder why in Scotland, unlike Wales, there is no great pressure to have people speak a local language. Why there are no bi-lingual road signs in Scotland
But there are bi-lingual road signs in Scotland.
gaelic-and-english-bi-lingual-road-signs-nr-kyle-of-lochalsh-highland-AE5F7K.jpg

They're just mostly confined to those areas where Gaelic usage is strongest.

I think the main difference is that Gaelic or indeed Scots were replaced by English in many areas of Scotland so long ago that they're no longer seen as the 'local' language. Whereas Welsh is more bound up with the identity of Wales as a whole.
 

Tetchytyke

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It’s about cultural identity as much as the actual language.

Here on the Isle of Man everyone speaks English but Manx is an important part of the landscape. My email signature at work is in English and Manx, government buildings and vehicles are signed up in English and Manx, the street name signs are in English and Manx, the bus destination blinds are in English and Manx. There’s a primary school which teaches in Manx, my own child’s school has a Manx name not an English one.

I like it. It’s part of the identity of the place. Same applies in Wales.
 

WelshBluebird

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To add to a couple of the replies above, the welsh not and similar anti welsh language policies, laws and to be blunt oppression are either within living memory or only just outside it.

I'm only 35 but grew up talking to my Gran about how some schools used to literally beat you for speaking Welsh.

That kind of recency means as others have said the language never really totally left (the Gran I mention was a fluent Welsh speaker and wrote for a Welsh language newspaper despite being in now a very much English language area), but it also means there are people with either actual living memories of the oppression or those of us like myself who has family who had those memories - that can be pretty powerful when it comes to wanting to support the language!
 

BingMan

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Which two of the three official spoken languages are you suggesting?
I am not suggesting anything. Just commenting that, outside of Glasgow, you rarely hear anything other than English and that road signs are usually in English
 

Starmill

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Usually these threads just boil down to people who don't speak Welsh complaining about the use of Welsh in public life, be they resident in Wales or elsewhere. If you dislike that Welsh is being used you will probably just have to get over it unfortunately, it's not going to be going away any time soon. That particular discussion has been had many many times over the past few years, it's difficult to see the point of re-hashing it...

I personally can't really understand hardly any Welsh, but I have never once felt there's been some kind of problem with it being used alongside English. I have never, ever, known English not be used on request in Wales. I would be amazed if this happened.
 

Western Lord

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I personally can't really understand hardly any Welsh, but I have never once felt there's been some kind of problem with it being used alongside English. I have never, ever, known English not be used on request in Wales. I would be amazed if this happened.
On request!!! The default language between strangers in Wales is English. When we were on holiday in North Wales a few years ago I went into a shop in Harlech and the lady behind the counter was talking to a customer in Welsh. When the other person had left she said to me "can I help you". She had no idea whether I spoke Welsh or not, so the starting point was English.
 

Starmill

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On request!!! The default language between strangers in Wales is English. When we were on holiday in North Wales a few years ago I went into a shop in Harlech and the lady behind the counter was talking to a customer in Welsh. When the other person had left she said to me "can I help you". She had no idea whether I spoke Welsh or not, so the starting point was English.
I don't disagree with that either. This doesn't alter the point though, which was that use of Welsh isn't causing any misunderstandings or inconvenience.

If you are on the customer side you have probably never, or have only very rarely, been addressed in Welsh as you say. For customer service staff they may be occasionally. In which case they would be the ones to request switching to English if they felt that would be easier. The customer would then agree.

The same applies in Ireland as well as I have seen it.
 

Western Lord

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Harlech is pretty touristy. Try somewhere like Blaenau Ffestiniog or Corris.
I imagine that in any customer facing role, even in Welsh speaking areas, the default would be to speak English unless the person serving knew the customer spoke Welsh (i.e was a local regular). In spending holidays in North Wales over the past 40 years I've never experienced someone in a shop speaking to me in Welsh.
 

Richard Scott

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The Welsh language isn't the problem it's the money spent on it that is.
Let is find its own way, it will survive but keep trying to get more people to speak it by throwing money at it is counterproductive in my experience.
 

Starmill

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I imagine that in any customer facing role, even in Welsh speaking areas, the default would be to speak English unless the person serving knew the customer spoke Welsh (i.e was a local regular). In spending holidays in North Wales over the past 40 years I've never experienced someone in a shop speaking to me in Welsh.
As above, the more likely way around is the customer greets the staff member in Welsh and they continue from there.
 

WelshBluebird

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The Welsh language isn't the problem it's the money spent on it that is.
Let is find its own way, it will survive but keep trying to get more people to speak it by throwing money at it is counterproductive in my experience.
Well for one, it hasn't had a fair chance giving almost within living memory it was literally being beaten out of children in school. It's a miracle its still alive given that really.

But secondly, language and culture is something to be celebrated and supported. It would be a massive shame if we all end up just speaking English, or Chinese or whatever. These are the kind of things that really define humanity and they deserve to be protected and maintained for future generations to enjoy and experience too.
 

Richard Scott

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Well for one, it hasn't had a fair chance giving almost within living memory it was literally being beaten out of children in school. It's a miracle its still alive given that really.

But secondly, language and culture is something to be celebrated and supported. It would be a massive shame if we all end up just speaking English, or Chinese or whatever. These are the kind of things that really define humanity and they deserve to be protected and maintained for future generations to enjoy and experience too.
The problem is now it's almost beaten in to children in school, metaphorically speaking. Let them discover their heritage and culture rather than ram it down their throat. It's likely they'll take more interest instead of almost zero interest that occurs where I live.
It's promoted in totally the wrong way and just seen as a massive waste of money. Not the way to do it but try telling the Senedd that.
 

Krokodil

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and just seen as a massive waste of money.
By whom?

The problem is now it's almost beaten in to children in school, metaphorically speaking
No it isn't. Parents can choose whether to send their kids to an English medium school and are entitled to transport support they would be entitled to if the nearest one is more than three miles away, regardless of whether there's a Welsh medium school closer.
 

Starmill

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There's lots of evidence it's of huge benefit for children to study a modern language to 16 anyway, so giving the option for that to be Welsh, instead of say French or Russian, isn't necessarily a bad thing.
 

Djgr

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I just think that it is really lame not to know the language of your country.

My English son has moved to Swansea and is taking weekly Welsh lessons because it is the correct thing to do and he doesn't want to be "that person".
 

WelshBluebird

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The problem is now it's almost beaten in to children in school, metaphorically speaking.
I am not talking metaphorically. I'm talking literally. There's a bit of a difference there!

And even then, it really isnt. In most schools you have to do to GCSE level, no difference to other subjects like Maths or even how some schools treat foreign laguages.
Let them discover their heritage and culture rather than ram it down their throat. It's likely they'll take more interest instead of almost zero interest that occurs where I live.
I just see this as no different to when kids have to do certain subjects in school! Some kids will act out against it and others will lap it up. And some of those who acted out against it will come to regret that when they are older (I am one of those people btw).
Some kifs It's promoted in totally the wrong way and just seen as a massive waste of money.
In your opinion. Some of us see it differently.
Not the way to do it but try telling the Senedd that.
You can in elections.
 

Richard Scott

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No it isn't. Parents can choose whether to send their kids to an English medium school and are entitled to transport support they would be entitled to if the nearest one is more than three miles away, regardless of whether there's a Welsh medium school closer.
Yes it is, they have to do the subject in an English medium school.
 

Krokodil

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Yes it is, they have to do the subject in an English medium school.
They also have to study science. And maths. And various other compulsory subjects which may or may not be relevant to their future career path. I had to study French to GCSE level. What of it?
 

Richard Scott

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And even then, it really isnt. In most schools you have to do to GCSE level, no difference to other subjects like Maths or even how some schools treat foreign laguages.

I just see this as no different to when kids have to do certain subjects in school! Some kids will act out against it and others will lap it up. And some of those who acted out against it will come to regret that when they are older (I am one of those people btw).

In your opinion. Some of us see it differently.
They see the point to maths etc. I know of no-one who regrets not learning Welsh properly and know plenty in their 30s who had no interest and their opinion hasn't changed.
Yes,it is my opinion but also many others who live in the area. By all means teach it in areas which are Welsh speaking but stop wasting money trying to promote it to those who aren't interested. That's my point, the number of speakers hasn't increased despite massive investment. There is a massive underfunding in education in Wales in general so divert some of this money to where it will benefit Welsh children.

They also have to study science. And maths. And various other compulsory subjects which may or may not be relevant to their future career path. I had to study French to GCSE level. What of it?
Yes and they see a point to that.
 

zero

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As above, the more likely way around is the customer greets the staff member in Welsh and they continue from there.

I've been to cafes in Blaenau F and Llanrwst where the only non-Welsh speakers were me and the staff member at the counter! It felt slightly awkward when they had to respond to every customer with "sorry I don't speak Welsh"
 

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