Problems on SWT mainline 27/10

[elementalpat]

Wonder what has happened towards Woking?

Usual websites only suggest the loose term 'operating incident', but whatever has occured has really caused some big delays.

 

[ushawk]

From what ive seen on Twitter, it suggests its a broken down train blocking Waterloo bound lines - not sure why that would cause major disruption though as services could use the unaffected line.

 

[MichaelAMW]

From what ive seen on Twitter, it suggests its a broken down train blocking Waterloo bound lines - not sure why that would cause major disruption though as services could use the unaffected line.

From the SWT newsgroup...

A single 455 has apparently gapped on the crossovers. It can only (reasonably) be a Woking - Waterloo stopper leaving the centre bay and going over to the up slow, and getting into trouble.

 

[Smod]

Yes that's exactly what's happened. A 455 leaving Woking was (and probably still is) stuck across the points blocking platforms 1, 2, and 3 - up slow, up fast and bay. The same crossover is used to route trains from platforms 4 and 5 (down fast and slow) onto the london-bound lines, so nothing can move towards London.

As far as I could see, incoming trains were being terminated at Woking (and I think Basingstoke); passengers were being advised to catch trains to Guildford. I didn't see whether any trains from the Basingstoke direction were being reversed at Woking to proceed via Guildford.

 

[DXMachina]

Why didn't they just get the next train thats on a line ending with the dead 455 to drive or reverse up to it and push or pull as appropriate?

Years ago (8th August 1991 - the day John McCarthy was freed - suddenly remembered that) I was on a train from brighton to london that was reversed and diverted to push a failed train out of a tunnel. I didn't mind - free on-board food due to the delay!

 

[jopsuk]

That might be more or less what they've done- but if it was fouling across all the up lines, the rescue train will have had to have been sent wrong line, possibly quite some distance. With the best will in the world, these things take time.

Doesn't the London Underground have leads for moving gapped units?

 

[MichaelAMW]

That might be more or less what they've done- but if it was fouling across all the up lines, the rescue train will have had to have been sent wrong line, possibly quite some distance. With the best will in the world, these things take time.

Just for clarity, the other end was still basically in the bay platform, so nothing could get to that end to rescue it...

 

[Monty]

That might be more or less what they've done- but if it was fouling across all the up lines, the rescue train will have had to have been sent wrong line, possibly quite some distance. With the best will in the world, these things take time.

Doesn't the London Underground have leads for moving gapped units?

I concur with this, the rescuing train would have to be sent wrong road from one of the up lines. If they were to send the closest train from one of these lines the chances are it would be Desiro unit which do not have compatible couplings with 455s, they do have device which allows the two units to couple in an emergency but it requires the presence of a fitter to be used. It's also rather heavy and awkwar to move and would most certainly require a traction current isolation before efforts are made to fit the device. Not sure if drivers are trained in it's use but guards certainly aren't.

In all it's a big hassle to get a train out to rescue the gapped unit and it takes time, it's a really awkward location for something like this to happen too.

 

[DXMachina]

Don't modern units have buffers or is it forbidden to push a train to which no coupling can be made? I only ask as the time I referred to above when as a kid the train I was riding was diverted as a rescue unit - a 319 ex brighton went into a tunnel and pushed a slam-door unit out.

Although for all I know the 319 and slammer might have used the same coupler, not my area, wouldnt have a clue.. but in theory, pushing doesnt need a coupling?

 

[westcoaster]

Don't modern units have buffers or is it forbidden to push a train to which no coupling can be made? I only ask as the time I referred to above when as a kid the train I was riding was diverted as a rescue unit - a 319 ex brighton went into a tunnel and pushed a slam-door unit out.

Although for all I know the 319 and slammer might have used the same coupler, not my area, wouldnt have a clue.. but in theory, pushing doesnt need a coupling?

True but you still need air to get the brakes to release, for assistance purposes a 319 can rescue a 455/456/465/466 plus slam door stock, networkers have a cut out switch in there cabs for 319 assistance iirc it's to do with the rheo brakes (cut out).

 

[MCR247]

Don't modern units have buffers or is it forbidden to push a train to which no coupling can be made? I only ask as the time I referred to above when as a kid the train I was riding was diverted as a rescue unit - a 319 ex brighton went into a tunnel and pushed a slam-door unit out.

Although for all I know the 319 and slammer might have used the same coupler, not my area, wouldnt have a clue.. but in theory, pushing doesnt need a coupling?

Isn't it more a case of pulling here though?

 

[Eagle]

Don't modern units have buffers or is it forbidden to push a train to which no coupling can be made?

Can't push it in this case, the tail's still in the bay platform.

 

[EM2]

Can I ask, how does this happen? I assume units are doing this move all day, every day, so what causes one to get gapped? Defective pick-up shoe?

 

[westcoaster]

Can I ask, how does this happen? I assume units are doing this move all day, every day, so what causes one to get gapped? Defective pick-up shoe?

Missing shoe, damaged shoe shunt lead, my money would go on railhead conditions, today was ok unless in that horrible fine drizzle then it was slip and slide time. All the 455's I saw today were 4 car so all it takes is to do a running brake test slip, try to take power and nothing.

 

[DXMachina]

Can't push it in this case, the tail's still in the bay platform.

I was thinking push it back into the bay and give it another chance of powering out and coasting the gap

 

[jopsuk]

Don't modern units have buffers?

The first class of Multiple Unit without buffers in the UK (just an autocoupler), as far as I can tell, was the 313 in 1976. As far as I can tell, no class of EMU or DMU built after that has buffers.


note to pedants: the HST powercars that were retrofitted with them don't count

 

[westcoaster]

The first class of Multiple Unit without buffers in the UK (just an autocoupler), as far as I can tell, was the 313 in 1976. As far as I can tell, no class of EMU or DMU built after that has buffers.


note to pedants: the HST powercars that were retrofitted with them don't count

Class 442 has buffers.

 

[tsr]

Class 442 has buffers.

Yes... but, as any local enthusiast will tell you, the Class 442 is actually very ancient. In fact, I believe they were introduced by the ancient Roman people to transfer troops to Londinium Bridge. They stole the motors from the Picts.

 

[pendolino]

Can I ask, how does this happen? I assume units are doing this move all day, every day, so what causes one to get gapped? Defective pick-up shoe?

Always loads of gaps where there is complicated pointwork. Sometimes happens where a train pulls up to a signal at danger and stops in a gap - happened at East Croydon a couple of weeks back (and the assisting train gapped too, oh dear!). Local instruction at London Bridge is that 2 cars should never be dispatched on a single yellow because of the very high risk of gapping when stopped at the red. Apart from Uckfields, they don't count.

 

[EM2]

Yet when I worked on S&T at Victoria, I don't recall ever seeing a gapped unit. Is that because they were all at least four-cars?

 

[tsr]

Sometimes happens where a train pulls up to a signal at danger and stops in a gap - happened at East Croydon a couple of weeks back (and the assisting train gapped too, oh dear!).

Remind me, which of the recent broken down trains on Southern was this :roll: ? I've lost track (pardon the pun )!

 

[pendolino]

Yet when I worked on S&T at Victoria, I don't recall ever seeing a gapped unit. Is that because they were all at least four-cars?

On the Southern side there are 2 cars out of Vic (South Londons) but the first signal section is longer and the signal is pretty much beyond all the pointwork compared to London Bridge so you can leave on a single yellow and there's a much better chance of the next signal clearing to yellow/green by the time you get there, so less risk of getting gapped.

Having said that, I remember a Southeastern 4 car gapping half in the platform about a year ago(?) which I heard was down to an over enthusiatic and somewhat early running brake test.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Having said that, I remember a Southeastern 4 car gapping half in the platform about a year ago(?) which I heard was down to an over enthusaistic and somewhat early running brake test.

Well.... it stopped didn't it?!:roll:

 

[John55]

The first class of Multiple Unit without buffers in the UK (just an autocoupler), as far as I can tell, was the 313 in 1976. As far as I can tell, no class of EMU or DMU built after that has buffers.


note to pedants: the HST powercars that were retrofitted with them don't count

Just a limited selection but Liverpool Overhead Railway 1893 no buffers, Mersey Railway 1903 no buffers, LMS Wirral sets 1938 no buffers. Sure there are many more.

 

[BestWestern]

I understand that the assisting train also 'gapped' here, which would obviously compound the problem rather a lot! Seems incredibly unlucky for two trains to suffer this indignity at the same location, was it just bad luck or is there a problem going on somewhere?

 

[pendolino]

I understand that the assisting train also 'gapped' here, which would obviously compound the problem rather a lot! Seems incredibly unlucky for two trains to suffer this indignity at the same location, was it just bad luck or is there a problem going on somewhere?

Sounds just like what happened at East Croydon. Basically, there are not enough shoes on a 455 (4 per unit, compared to 12 on a 4 car 377 (or is it 8? Are there shoes on the MOSL? I can't remember now, I'll have to have a look) ) to ensure the train doesn't get gapped when approaching reds over pointwork. You have to keep an eye on the line light and try and stop somewhere where you'll have a shoe on the juice as well as not SPAD the signal. All good fun.

 

[A-driver]

I understand that the assisting train also 'gapped' here, which would obviously compound the problem rather a lot! Seems incredibly unlucky for two trains to suffer this indignity at the same location, was it just bad luck or is there a problem going on somewhere?

I have heard a story from a while ago that has probably been exaggerated a bit but of a 4 car 317 taking a wrong route north if Ely and ending up with an ADD on the march line. They thought they could get another 317 to rescue it still under the wires just but as that one attached it pushed it slightly too far and the pan also got stranded beyond the knitting. A third unit had to be sent to pull that one out. Obviously caused bigger problems as they then had 2 pantos with broken backs!

There was also a packed peak hour 4 car 455 leaving London bridge some years ago when a toddler decided to push the low level disabled area passcom. Stopped the train right in one if the gaps crossing the point work. Effectively shut down London bridge station for the start of the rush hour whilst they had the unit rescued!