Problems with trainline: "open return" fares only being valid for one day

[PeterC]

If your developers and your domain experts are separate groups of people then you're almost certainly guaranteeing a sub-optimal outcome.

Which is why rigorous analysis techniques have been developed to bridge the gap. Of course the client never wants to pay for a proper job.

 

[JB_B]

I think people with the required skills for both of those would be rarer than hens teeth

No doubt it's not a common approach. However, I know of a number of firms that work this way.

Which is why rigorous analysis techniques have been developed to bridge the gap. Of course the client never wants to pay for a proper job.

Absolutely - you can throw £s at systems analysis, PRINCE2, etc and you'll probably end up with a more or less acceptable outcome - I'm just not convinced it's always the most efficient approach.

 

[robbeech]

Would it be beyond the ability of retailer to add a message or increase the options when there are both returns and day returns available, a bit like the "are you coming back today?" question.

I see little issue in the Single / Return / Open Return method but it would be easy to implement a further question determined by the origin and destination data. That question could simply be, Return same day / Return within 30 days.

Where only returns or only day returns are available the other option could be greyed out with a message saying "day returns unavailable for this journey" or "period returns unavailable for this journey, consider two single tickets" or similar.


Of course, this is unlikely to ever happen because on a few flows they STILL make you buy 2 off peak singles instead of an anytime day return if you're before the railcard threshold after 3 years of it being reported officially.

 

[dingdinger]

Trainline have regular issues and they are unreliable- plus there's a booking fee! Best booking direct with the TOC or through national rail website.

 

[robbeech]

Trainline have regular issues and they are unreliable- plus there's a booking fee! Best booking direct with the TOC or through national rail website.

Unless you refer to a supposed up and coming retailer for GBR then it’s worth pointing out that national rail isn’t a retailer and will direct you to others.

There are a variety of third party retailers available that don’t charge booking fees and who have excellent customer service.

 

[bkhtele]

I've seen this a lot when checking tickets and a lot of time there isn't a workaround either and I've had to sell a new ticket for the relevant leg and advise that the customer goes to trainline to complain, it leaves us staff in a bit of a situation!

Happens regularly!

 

[Wuz]

I have only ever used Trainline for email reminders of when Advance fares become available and then booked with a TOC. Hope they still do this
My 1 year Railcard expired in Feb 21, after not managing to use it once! Glad I didn't buy a 3 year one.

 

[maniacmartin]

The definition which everybody has used forever for "open return" means return within a month without committing to a specific train.

For some reason Trainline use it to mean something different on their site, namely return without committing to a specific train - which may be restricted to the same day. This is very unhelpful of them and misleading.

 

[XAM2175]

The definition which everybody has used forever for "open return" means return within a month without committing to a specific train.

For some reason Trainline use it to mean something different on their site, namely return without committing to a specific train - which may be restricted to the same day. This is very unhelpful of them and misleading.

I would suggest a small but important change: the definition which everybody in the rail industry has used forever for "open return" means return within a month without committing to a specific train.

As @zero's post at number 24 alludes, there are passengers - perhaps used to using advance tickets, or buying via journey planners, etc etc - who interpret "open" differently.

I agree that Trainline are causing confusion by acting this way and that they need to do better at clarifying the differences, but at the same time I think it should be recognised that some industry practices aren't as transparent to 'civilians' as they are to us.

 

[Haywain]

I would suggest a small but important change: the definition which everybody in the rail industry has used forever for "open return" means return within a month without committing to a specific train.

I very much agree with this, for many years I have experienced customers asking for open returns when they intend to return the same day, often on journeys where period returns aren’t available.

 

[swt_passenger]

When RDG “fares simplification” happened, weren’t they careful not to use “open” - preferring “Anytime”. So that‘s when booking sites ought to have stopped referring to open in this context?

 

[pelli]

It seems to me that the underlying issue is that The Railway has failed to publicise a good name for what Trainline calls "Open Return", i.e. a return with unspecified return itinerary, and additionally historically used "Open Return" to mean specifically (anytime) period return, excluding day returns in particular.

Note that Trainline is not alone in including Day Returns under "Open Return". For example, the GWR journey planner (which I understand is MixingDeck which is not powered by Trainline) has a tick box for "Open Return" and then offers both Day and Period Returns inside. Even worse, under "Amend Journey" the tick box says "Open Return (return anytime)" (see attached screenshot) and then offers Off-Peak tickets! Of course, this isn't really a problem, because when the passenger selects a specific ticket the name is displayed clearly, and includes "Day Return" or "(Super) Off-Peak" where needed. Nevertheless, things could be made clearer by splitting the initial "Open Return" option into "Open Return (day)" and "Open Return (month)", which will have minimal impact on passengers as most people know which one they want.

I haven't used Trainline before, but from trying some searches in the app, I think the big problem is that when they split tickets, the prominently displayed ticket name becomes "SplitSave", and the condition "Return same day" is shown in slightly smaller font below, which could be missed (see attached screenshot). An easy fix would be to extend the name to summarise the most restrictive properties of the tickets in the combination, e.g. "SplitSave (Advance)", "SplitSave (Anytime Day Single)", "SplitSave (Super Off-Peak Return)" (ignoring the fact that some Super Off-Peak restrictions are less restrictive than some Off-Peak restrictions).

The issue of the SplitSave name hiding the day/period return distinction is compounded by the fact that the overall cheapest ticket is shown at the top, separately from the two clearly grouped "Return same day" and "Return within 1 month" options below. Since, for day/period returns, "Return same day" could never be more expensive than "Return within 1 month", showing the cheapest ticket at the top could be abolished and the tickets would still be displayed in the same order (with the cheapest ticket now being at the top under the "Return same day" heading, if a day return is available).

The other thing to add, is that this is happening after people are specifying overnight stays. They are specifying to return on different days to their departure

Are you certain that this happened? I.e. a passenger specified two separate dates for out and return, and got offered a ticket (or a split involving a ticket) that is only valid to return on the same day? Are you able to reproduce this in the app now? (I couldn't figure out how to see what the individual tickets in a split are without buying them, but one could infer from the ticket price if it's a simple split into day/period returns, since the split point is displayed.)

a lady who had what Trainline were describing as an "Open Return" but was infact an off peak day return and two advance singles routed via a split at Crewe, but because she thought she had a return to Nottingham valid on any train for a calendar month she boarded the direct service.

Surely Trainline could not have sold Advance Singles if the passenger ticked the "Open Return" box and thus did not input a return journey? More likely the passenger selected an out and return itinerary, and was offered a SplitSave (with the small text below saying "Specified train(s) only"), but somehow misunderstood/misremembered?

 

[talldave]

Since an Open Return isn't, why not call it a Month Return, which it is?

 

[[.n]]

The definition which everybody has used forever for "open return" means return within a month without committing to a specific train.

For some reason Trainline use it to mean something different on their site, namely return without committing to a specific train - which may be restricted to the same day. This is very unhelpful of them and misleading.

I'm fairly certain that when I started buying tickets an "Open Return" was for 3 months, and within the NSE area the was a Network Away Break that was for a month (though my memory is fuzzy, I'm sure the more expensive return was valid for 3 months)

 

[yorkie]

I'm fairly certain that when I started buying tickets an "Open Return" was for 3 months, and within the NSE area the was a Network Away Break that was for a month (though my memory is fuzzy, I'm sure the more expensive return was valid for 3 months)

That must have been many decades ago.

An Open Return has meant 1 month for as long as I can remember and have any records for! I've got some leaflets from the 1980s that state one month.

 

[miami]

Network away break was 5 days wasn't it?

 

[HBP]

That must have been many decades ago.

An Open Return has meant 1 month for as long as I can remember and have any records for! I've got some leaflets from the 1980s that state one month.

They were certainly a thing when I started serious rail travel from 1987 on the LDS-KGX route.

 

[James H]

Network away break was 5 days wasn't it?

Yes.

The Network StayAway was NSE's one-month return, only available on a few longer routes (eg London to Bournemouth)

 

[JB_B]

Network away break was 5 days wasn't it?

Yes, that's my recollection too.

 

[alistairlees]

Yes, that's my recollection too.

A bit off topic but, in 1996:
- tickets to London International were all (apart from "Leisure" ones) valid for two months
- FOS and SOS and SVS tickets were only valid for one day (not two days, like now); other than if the journey could not be completed on day one
- FOR, SOR, SVR tickets were all valid to return for a month
- SSR ("SuperSaver") were also valid for a month, except for Fridays, summer Saturdays, and some other peak days
- NAR ("Network Awaybreak Return") were valid for one day out, and back on any day within 5 days
- NSR ("Network Stayaway Return") were valid for one day out, and back on any day within a calendar month
- LFR ("LeisureFirst") were valid for one day out (specified train only), then back on a specified train on a specific date, provided that was after the next Saturday, but within a calendar month
- Superadvance Returrn were similar to Leisure First, but without the "after Saturday" restriction.
- Apex Return were the same as Superadvance Return, except you couldn't return on the same day as your outward journey (if it was First Class ticket)

I haven't listed everything but that should give a flavour. Please feel free to correct!

 

[Wallsendmag]

When I started the SOR was valid for 3 months

 

[Haywain]

When I started the SOR was valid for 3 months

Yeah, but then you are very old.

 

[CyrusWuff]

- Superadvance Returrn were similar to Leisure First, but without the "after Saturday" restriction.
- Apex Return were the same as Superadvance Return, except you couldn't return on the same day as your outward journey (if it was First Class ticket)

I haven't listed everything but that should give a flavour. Please feel free to correct!

SuperAdvance, Apex and SuperApex were all Advance Purchase tickets that were only valid for the booked train(s). each with different booking requirements:

• SuperAdvance (SAS/SAR) had to be booked by 1800 the day before travel (1400 for some morning departures and some Anglo-Scottish services)
• Apex (AXS/AXR) had to be booked at least 7 days before travel
• SuperApex (SXS/SXR) had to be booked at least 14 days before travel

In NFM64 (September 1996), Kings Cross - Edinburgh had the following on offer (not sure why the APs are listed given they're not needed for a Routeing Guide fares check, but in this case they're useful!):

• SuperSaver Single (SSS) : £61.00 / Return (SSR) : £62.00
• Saver Return (SVR) : £72.00
• Standard Open Single (SOS) : £68.00 / Return (SOR) : £130.00
• First Open Single (FOS) : £98.00 / Return (FOR) : £196.00
• SuperApex Single (SXS) : £28.50 / Return (SXR) : £29.00
• Apex Single (AXS) : £45.00 / Return (AXR) : £46.00
• SuperAdvance Single (SAS) : £57.00 / Return (SAR) : £58.00
• Leisure First Return (LFR) : £98.00

 

[takno]

When I started the SOR was valid for 3 months

Any idea when it went? I vaguely remember it being the case as well, and that one of the limitations of white/blue savers was that they were a month

 

[alistairlees]

Any idea when it went? I vaguely remember it being the case as well, and that one of the limitations of white/blue savers was that they were a month

It must have been before 1993, as I looked at the National Fares Manual for that year yesterday

 

[APT618S]

It must have been before 1993, as I looked at the National Fares Manual for that year yesterday

IIRC in 1986 I purchased an open return with 3 months validity.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Any idea when it went? I vaguely remember it being the case as well, and that one of the limitations of white/blue savers was that they were a month

Very early 90s I would say

 

[AM9]

IIRC in 1986 I purchased an open return with 3 months validity.

Weren't some tickets called 'period returns' at some point?

 

[gordonthemoron]

No doubt, when GBR eventually arrives, all ticketing websites will be replaced by the Trainline

 

[Haywain]

No doubt, when GBR eventually arrives, all ticketing websites will be replaced by the Trainline

That is highly unlikely.