Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[snowball]

Is the rail connection between Hitachi Newton Aycliffe and the ECML electrified? I was under the impression it wasn't. However RAIL mag #1015, p. 20, says 807s go to Oxley via Edinburgh under their own power. Presumably they are not counting the first few yards.

 

[MrJeeves]

Presumably they are not counting the first few yards.

They just get a nice push from a loco, and coast onto the mainline of course.

 

[800001]

Is the rail connection between Hitachi Newton Aycliffe and the ECML electrified? I was under the impression it wasn't. However RAIL mag #1015, p. 20, says 807s go to Oxley via Edinburgh under their own power. Presumably they are not counting the first few yards.

They have a contract with Gbrf who haul the 807s to and from Darlington. Once ghe loco detaches, then yes the 807 runs Darlington to Oxley under its own power.

69012 arrived at the factory late last night, and then dragged 807004 to Darlington for overnight testing on mainline, then dragged the unit back to the factory this morning.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Is the rail connection between Hitachi Newton Aycliffe and the ECML electrified? I was under the impression it wasn't. However RAIL mag #1015, p. 20, says 807s go to Oxley via Edinburgh under their own power. Presumably they are not counting the first few yards.

Ironic, given the line between Newton Aycliffe and Darlington was electrified in 1915 (but de-electrified 20 years later)

 

[marsker]

No it wasn't. The electrified line left the current Bishop Auckland line just north of Newton Aycliffe station and followed the old Clarence Railway line to Redmarshall then to Newport via Thorpe Thewells.

 

[800001]

No it wasn't. The electrified line left the current Bishop Auckland line just north of Newton Aycliffe station and followed the old Clarence Railway line to Redmarshall then to Newport via Thorpe Thewells.

And the old mast bases are still there in several places when walking down the old line near Preston le Skerne, and it is east of Aycliffe Station where the line diverged.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

807001 looking lovely on Edge Hill CS this afternoon.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It seems ORR have issued an Improvement Notice to Avanti West Coast on the basis that TASS (Tilt Authorisation & Speed Supervision) is not fitted to the Class 805 fleet. Seems a little odd given they are not tilting trains and other stock that is not TASS-fitted - such as XC 220s - are able to run at 125mph on WCML where non-EPS linespeeds permit?

From a TSSA press release last month:

https://www.tssa.org.uk/news-and-ev...ays-at-avanti-west-coast-amid-safety-concerns

Transport and travel union TSSA is warning of further delays and cancellations relating to safety on the west coast mainline, run by the beleaguered Avanti.

TSSA signaled its concerns after it emerged that the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) which oversees safety regulation on Britain’s railways, had served Avanti West Coast with an ‘Improvement Notice’ for failure to fit their new trains with a speed limiting device.

Avanti's existing fleet of Class 221 Super Voyager trains have this device fitted but their replacements - the new Class 805 Evero trains - do not. Unique to the West Coast Main Line, the TASS (Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision) system protects the train from over-speeding at curves and other specific locations.

The Improvement Notice could mean that services already operated with the new trains may face cancellation whilst Avanti takes the safety precautions required by the ORR to make the new trains as safe as the existing ones.

The union is now seeking urgent clarification regarding the situation from the ORR and plans to raise the matter with the Transport Secretary, Lou Haigh.

Commenting, TSSA General Secretary, Maryam Eslamdoust said: “Frankly it’s remarkable that Avanti seems to have failed on even the most basic of safety measures- running trains at the correct speed, and it's no wonder the ORR have acted to address this.

"We will be speaking to the ORR and the Transport Secretary about this troubling matter in the coming days and call for swift remedial action.

“Passengers on the West Coast have already suffered for far too long at Avanti’s hands and now it seems they are set for more cancellations and delays to services. This simply can’t go on.”

*The Improvement Notice was served on 4 July with a compliance date of 6 July 2026. The Improvement Notice is therefore still within its 21-day appeal window and will not be published on the ORR Public Register until after this date.

*Avanti West Coast has long been beset with performance difficulties. Office of Rail and Road figures show it had the third worst reliability of all operators in Britain in the year to the end of March, with the equivalent of one in 15 trains (6.9%) cancelled.

 

[Rail Quest]

It seems ORR have issued an Improvement Notice to Avanti West Coast on the basis of TASS (Tilt Authorisation & Speed Supervision) is not fitted to the Class 805 fleet. Seems a little odd given they are not tilting trains and other stock that is not TASS-fitted - such as XC 220s - are able to run at 125mph on WCML where non-EPS linespeeds permit?

From a TSSA press release last month:

https://www.tssa.org.uk/news-and-ev...ays-at-avanti-west-coast-amid-safety-concerns

I have to ask - how has this concern by the ORR only just (well, last month at least) been raised? We've known the new super voyager replacements weren't going to have tilt fitted for a while now. So did the ORR perhaps have some assurance from Avanti that TASS would still be fitted that now hasn't been met, or have they just let the trains go all the way through production and into service without raising this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would you need TASS on a non tilting train?

 

[Nottingham59]

I think ORR are more concerned about the SS - Speed Supervision - aspect, rather than TA - Tilt Authorisation

EDIT: There was an article about it in Rail Magazine in April

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"The ORR’S concerns are based on the fact that speed supervision is installed on these existing trains, but not on the yet-to-be introduced Class 807s (10 seven-car electric sets) and the 13 Class 805s (five-car bi-mode units), the first of which were introduced in June. Its ruling that it should also be fitted to the new ‘Evero’ fleet came just over six months after it authorised entry into service of the Class 805s.

"A two-year deadline for compliance has been set. The units will be allowed to remain in service in the meantime, however the ORR says this will require “additional risk control measures in place, such as reduced running speed”. As with other non-tilting trains, they are already subject to a maximum speed of 110mph on the WCML."

 

[Trainbike46]

I think ORR are more concerned about the SS - Speed Supervision - aspect, rather than TA - Tilt Authorisation

EDIT: There was an article about it in Rail Magazine in April

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Digital newsstand featuring 7000+ of the world’s most popular newspapers & magazines. Enjoy unlimited reading on up to 5 devices with 7-day free trial.

www.pressreader.com

"The ORR’S concerns are based on the fact that speed supervision is installed on these existing trains, but not on the yet-to-be introduced Class 807s (10 seven-car electric sets) and the 13 Class 805s (five-car bi-mode units), the first of which were introduced in June. Its ruling that it should also be fitted to the new ‘Evero’ fleet came just over six months after it authorised entry into service of the Class 805s.

"A two-year deadline for compliance has been set. The units will be allowed to remain in service in the meantime, however the ORR says this will require “additional risk control measures in place, such as reduced running speed”. As with other non-tilting trains, they are already subject to a maximum speed of 110mph on the WCML."

That is confusing - why is TASS needed? don't other lines have speed supervision systems, and don't those work on the WCML? Are LNWR, TfW, TPE, and other operators fleets fitted with TASS? if not, why do the 805s need it when other fleets don't?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

"The ORR’S concerns are based on the fact that speed supervision is installed on these existing trains, but not on the yet-to-be introduced Class 807s (10 seven-car electric sets) and the 13 Class 805s (five-car bi-mode units), the first of which were introduced in June. Its ruling that it should also be fitted to the new ‘Evero’ fleet came just over six months after it authorised entry into service of the Class 805s.

Isn't there a speed limiter on 80Xs ever since the TPE overspeed?
Why do Avanti need to use TASS' speed supervision rather than something else (and probably newer too)

 

[Nottingham59]

Is it that TASS offers better speed control round curves than does TPWS, and so ORR now says that TASS should be fitted to all (new) stock, irrespective of whether or not it tilts?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TASS on 390/221 only operates at speeds above 110mph.
So 350s, 397s or any other stock on the WCML limited to 110mph are not required to have TASS fitted.
So the current 805/807 regime is not affected and I'm sure the trains will not be stopped.
But it might well stop the planned upgrade beyond 110mph in its tracks.
I don't think there is much chance of the Alstom TASS system being fitted to Hitachi AT300s.
The long-term answer is of course ETCS.

Right at the beginning of the Avanti 80x procurement I wondered how they would get past the TASS rules.
It does represent a reduction in speed control over the TASS-fitted stock.
The same will apply to HS2 stock...
Avanti/NR must have expected similar treatment to the ECML/MML 125mph sections which don't have speed controls (GWML has ATP).

 

[Railperf]

TASS on 390/221 only operates at speeds above 110mph.
So 350s, 397s or any other stock on the WCML limited to 110mph are not required to have TASS fitted.
So the current 805/807 regime is not affected and I'm sure the trains will not be stopped.
But it might well stop the planned upgrade beyond 110mph in its tracks.
I don't think there is much chance of the Alstom TASS system being fitted to Hitachi AT300s.
The long-term answer is of course ETCS.

Right at the beginning of the Avanti 80x procurement I wondered how they would get past the TASS rulest does represent a reduction in speed control over the TASS-fitted stock.
The same will apply to HS2 stock...
Avanti/NR must have expected similar treatment to the ECML/MML 125mph sections which don't have speed controls (GWML has ATP).

I heard this has been appealed by Avanti. No news on reasons why.
The fact is this. If a 390 or 221 suffers a tilt failure, then TASS is deactivated and no longer supervises speed. Therefore if a driver 'forgets' that his train suffered a tilt failure, he can drive at the EPS limits without any safety system kicking in..and before anyone asks, this is known to have happened even if it is a rare occurrence. Someone mentioned that 221's have an audible warning when 110mph is exceeded in non-tilt mode.
So it seems ORR are concerned with drivers who are usesd to driving 390/221 at EPS speeds forgetting when driving an 80x that they need to drive to the slower speed profile?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I wonder if Avanti/Hitachi were interpreting that TASS only applies when EPS speed differentials are utilised, ie for tilting trains. Network Rail is currently engaged in moving certain EPS speeds (applicable to 221s) across into the MU differential bracket. The difference of opinion might be based on whether TASS applies to the MU speeds or not? (Seems rather odd if it does.)

 

[Railperf]

I wonder if Avanti/Hitachi were interpreting that TASS only applies when EPS speed differentials are utilised, ie for tilting trains. Network Rail is currently engaged in moving certain EPS speeds (applicable to 221s) across into the MU differential bracket. The difference of opinion might be based on whether TASS applies to the MU speeds or not? (Seems rather odd if it does.)

TASS has not been fitted to 125mph capable Class 397's but currently TPE drivers are trained to drive to the PS speed proflle - which does not exceed 110mph.
Whereas Avanti will have drivers routinely driving at an EPS limit most of the time, but having to remember the PS limits when driving non tilt traction - which could lead to some confusion at what speed to drive at.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Therefore if a driver 'forgets' that his train suffered a tilt failure, he can drive at the EPS limits without any safety system kicking in..and before anyone asks, this is known to have happened even if it is a rare occurrence.

I remember a Driver I know telling me that they inadvertently managed to do that and only realised their error when the Train Manager relayed concerns they'd received from passengers onboard about the rough riding around corners.

Someone mentioned that 221's have an audible warning when 110mph is exceeded in non-tilt mode.

I wonder if this is indeed the case given how easy it appears for Drivers to still do 125 without TASS working.

 

[Railperf]

I remember a Driver I know telling me that they inadvertently managed to do that and only realised their error when the Train Manager relayed concerns they'd received from passengers onboard about the rough riding around corners.


I wonder if this is indeed the case given how easy it appears for Drivers to still do 125 without TASS working.

Before they transferred to XC, the 221 Voyagers needed to be able to run at 125mph under TASS on the WCML, but also 125mph in non tilt mode when negotiating the Birmingham to Derby route and 125mph ECML stretches.

 

[The Chimaera]

I heard this has been appealed by Avanti. No news on reasons why.
The fact is this. If a 390 or 221 suffers a tilt failure, then TASS is deactivated and no longer supervises speed. Therefore if a driver 'forgets' that his train suffered a tilt failure, he can drive at the EPS limits without any safety system kicking in..and before anyone asks, this is known to have happened even if it is a rare occurrence. Someone mentioned that 221's have an audible warning when 110mph is exceeded in non-tilt mode.
So it seems ORR are concerned with drivers who are usesd to driving 390/221 at EPS speeds forgetting when driving an 80x that they need to drive to the slower speed profile?

If you exceed 114mph in a Pendolino without Tass being active, alarms sound in the cab and a warning is displayed on the TMS which is displayed on a red screen. Believe me, you won’t be unaware of the fact.

 

[Toby268]

I heard this has been appealed by Avanti. No news on reasons why.
The fact is this. If a 390 or 221 suffers a tilt failure, then TASS is deactivated and no longer supervises speed. Therefore if a driver 'forgets' that his train suffered a tilt failure, he can drive at the EPS limits without any safety system kicking in..and before anyone asks, this is known to have happened even if it is a rare occurrence. Someone mentioned that 221's have an audible warning when 110mph is exceeded in non-tilt mode.
So it seems ORR are concerned with drivers who are usesd to driving 390/221 at EPS speeds forgetting when driving an 80x that they need to drive to the slower speed profile?

Tass will still give an audible warning when travelling over 110mph when non tilt So in every day situations it will still work to an extent. It’s only when Tass is fully isolated by means of the system being fully tripped on the back wall of the cab that it will not do this. Even with this the company suggest drivers apply a red sticker to the speedometer which covers the speeds above 110mph as an additional safety measure. Although it’s very rarely done

So yes, they are clearly concerned that drivers of 80x units are going to go round a curve at the EPS limit. For example going round linslade tunnels at 125 EPS vice 90 if the driver has a mind blip.

 

[voyagerdude220]

If you exceed 114mph in a Pendolino without Tass being active, alarms sound in the cab and a warning is displayed on the TMS which is displayed on a red screen. Believe me, you won’t be unaware of the fact.

But is it definitely the case that you get similar warnings on a tilt isolated 221 say at 110-125 mph?

 

[The Chimaera]

But is it definitely the case that you get similar warnings on a tilt isolated 221 say at 110-125 mph?

I believe not as you were quite in order to do 125mph between Coventry and Rugby for example with tilt/tass isolated as it had a Hst125 speed limit. (Now changed to MU125 so not sure it still applies)

 

[Energy]

The temporary fix for this is to implement a 110mph limiter on the 805s and 807s. TASS doesn't supervise until beyond 110mph so this would be an equivalent level of safety to the pendolinos.

 

[Bald Rick]

TASS on 390/221 only operates at speeds above 110mph.
So 350s, 397s or any other stock on the WCML limited to 110mph are not required to have TASS fitted.
So the current 805/807 regime is not affected and I'm sure the trains will not be stopped.

This is not correct.

The ‘TA’ part of TASS operates at all speeds that tilt is used.

 

[Railperf]

This is not correct.

The ‘TA’ part of TASS operates at all speeds that tilt is used.

Unlike other European networks , the UK authorities specify that any tilt enable rolling stock needs the TASS (Tilt Activation and Speed Supervision) system to be fitted. This system determines on what sections of track the tilt system activates and deactivates. In Italy - trains with tilt are simply authorised to run at higher speeds on certain bits of the network, there being no TASS type system there.

Class 397's and Class 802's which run on the WCML are not tilting trains and so the drivers have to observe a 110mph maximum speed limit for non-tilt trains. There is no speed limiters fitted. Simply drivrs have to obsrve the speed limits in force for those trains. But as we said before, TPE drivers have route learned the northern section of WCML at PS speeds and have been driving Class 350's before the 397's arrived. Even though the 397's arrived as 125mph capable, it appears TPE and Network Rail have not come to any agreement as to locations where they can run at higher speeds, so for now the speed limit remains at 110mph maximum - which TPE drivers are used to! I'm sure TPE drivers are reminded that speeding is a serious offence enforced by OTMR downloads.

Tass will still give an audible warning when travelling over 110mph when non tilt So in every day situations it will still work to an extent. It’s only when Tass is fully isolated by means of the system being fully tripped on the back wall of the cab that it will not do this. Even with this the company suggest drivers apply a red sticker to the speedometer which covers the speeds above 110mph as an additional safety measure. Although it’s very rarely done

So yes, they are clearly concerned that drivers of 80x units are going to go round a curve at the EPS limit. For example going round linslade tunnels at 125 EPS vice 90 if the driver has a mind blip.

So my understanding is that when a unit experiences a tilt fault, TASS tends to be Isolated too, which prevents any overspeed warnings being displayed.
Does anyone know what the procedure was in Virgin days when a Class 221 ventured across to the ECML. I'm guessing tilt and TASS having to be isolated to allow 125mph non-tilt running? And as soon as the unit was reused back on the WCML at EPS speeds it had to have tilt and TASS switched back on manually?

 

[Benjwri]

In Italy - trains with tilt are simply authorised to run at higher speeds on certain bits of the network, there being no TASS type system there.

Of course in the UK this is the case because our smaller loading gauge means if a train tilted in the wrong place it would hit something, which is undesirable to say the least.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course in the UK this is the case because our smaller loading gauge means if a train tilted in the wrong place it would hit something, which is undesirable to say the least.

Also not the case. The pendolinos could, in theory, be on maximum tilt anywhere and in either direction and not hit any infrastructure or a train coming the other way. Thats the reason for their cross sectional profile.

 

[Benjwri]

Also not the case. The pendolinos could, in theory, be on maximum tilt anywhere and in either direction and not hit any infrastructure or a train coming the other way. Thats the reason for their cross sectional profile.

I could've sworn I was told it was, but fair enough. A lot of articles certainly state so in error if it isn't the case.