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Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

LNW-GW Joint

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I'm sure I read NR route plans to the effect that new connections to the 400kV grid at Rugeley and Weaver Jn had been commissioned, as part of WCRM or ATF projects.
The Weaver Jn connection came from a 400kV supply at Frodsham via a new "extension lead" via Sutton Weaver.
So I don't understand where the shortage of power comes from on this stretch of line.
The new connections at Newton-le-Willows (and at Edge Hill?) also provide a further supply boost from the TPE route upgrade.
 
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childwallblues

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I'm sure I read NR route plans to the effect that new connections to the 400kV grid at Rugeley and Weaver Jn had been commissioned, as part of WCRM or ATF projects.
The Weaver Jn connection came from a 400kV supply at Frodsham via a new "extension lead" via Sutton Weaver.
So I don't understand where the shortage of power comes from on this stretch of line.
The new connections at Newton-le-Willows (and at Edge Hill?) also provide a further supply boost from the TPE route upgrade.
And also at Huyton Quarry.

Yesterday there was a 5Q90 0913 Edge Hill Depot to Euston and 1403 return formed of 805008. The voutward leg stopped briefly at Crewe but the return leg ran non stop. So did the return leg run the 191 miles on diesel or electric?
 
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Railperf

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I'm sure I read NR route plans to the effect that new connections to the 400kV grid at Rugeley and Weaver Jn had been commissioned, as part of WCRM or ATF projects.
The Weaver Jn connection came from a 400kV supply at Frodsham via a new "extension lead" via Sutton Weaver.
So I don't understand where the shortage of power comes from on this stretch of line.
The new connections at Newton-le-Willows (and at Edge Hill?) also provide a further supply boost from the TPE route upgrade.
Here is the more complex answer to the power supply issues from a good known source:

"The government's direct involvement has been a forced reduction in the scope of the power supply upgrades along the Crewe - Preston section, and that's in addition to the poor supply capacity north and south of Carlisle as others have mentioned. The "new" feeder at Willow Park (close to Newton-le-Willows, and replacing the old Parkside feeder) was supposed to support autotransformer feeding all the way to the neutral section at Crewe Coal Yard; work started, as evidenced by the newer added insulators at the top of the structures, but got stopped by the government as a cost saving measure. The result is that the section between the neutrals at Crewe Coal Yard and just north of Weaver Junction (both Runcorn and Warrington routes) is still being fed by an old arrangement of conductors and circuit breakers. This has always been a weak section, I'm sure that drivers of (class) 90- and 92-hauled trains along here can confirm that. One problem that it is fed through old oil-filled circuit breakers, which can only see a limited number of trips (30?) before the oil must be changed; clearly this is a maintenance cost that Network Rail could do without. A related problem is that the poor supply is distorted by pairs of 90s, particularly those accelerating along the Down Slow Line north from Crewe where much of the train is still on the climb out of Basford Hall yard; and this distortion can cause premature overload circuit trips (the "distance protection" on the feeder sees a waveform distortion and assumes it's a line fault, not a freight train).

Of course this whole area would have had its feeder arrangements altered when work on HS2 was carried out in the Crewe area, but we know what's happened to that....."
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Isn't it ORR that determines the content of NR's CP programmes (along with the DfT's SoFA)?
You blame "the government" but did NR overspend on the programme like they did on GW electrification and run out of money for the project?
Power upgrades take a long time if new grid connections are needed.
It doesn't sound like this is a problem that will be fixed quickly, unless the funding is in the CP7 budget.
 

Trainbike46

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Here is the more complex answer to the power supply issues from a good known source:

"The government's direct involvement has been a forced reduction in the scope of the power supply upgrades along the Crewe - Preston section, and that's in addition to the poor supply capacity north and south of Carlisle as others have mentioned. The "new" feeder at Willow Park (close to Newton-le-Willows, and replacing the old Parkside feeder) was supposed to support autotransformer feeding all the way to the neutral section at Crewe Coal Yard; work started, as evidenced by the newer added insulators at the top of the structures, but got stopped by the government as a cost saving measure. The result is that the section between the neutrals at Crewe Coal Yard and just north of Weaver Junction (both Runcorn and Warrington routes) is still being fed by an old arrangement of conductors and circuit breakers. This has always been a weak section, I'm sure that drivers of (class) 90- and 92-hauled trains along here can confirm that. One problem that it is fed through old oil-filled circuit breakers, which can only see a limited number of trips (30?) before the oil must be changed; clearly this is a maintenance cost that Network Rail could do without. A related problem is that the poor supply is distorted by pairs of 90s, particularly those accelerating along the Down Slow Line north from Crewe where much of the train is still on the climb out of Basford Hall yard; and this distortion can cause premature overload circuit trips (the "distance protection" on the feeder sees a waveform distortion and assumes it's a line fault, not a freight train).

Of course this whole area would have had its feeder arrangements altered when work on HS2 was carried out in the Crewe area, but we know what's happened to that....."
Firstly, thank you for sharing that insight!

Secondly, am I understanding correctly that the oil in that equipment needs its oil changed effectively every day? if so, that seems like it should be resolved quickly, because daily maintenance of that type must be expensive (even just to get staff on-site every day!)

To me, it sounds like something that needs sorting ASAP - The impacts this must be having on passenger and freight operations is unacceptable.

Isn't it ORR that determines the content of NR's CP programmes (along with the DfT's SoFA)?
You blame "the government" but did NR overspend on the programme like they did on GW electrification and run out of money for the project?
Power upgrades take a long time if new grid connections are needed.
It doesn't sound like this is a problem that will be fixed quickly, unless the funding is in the CP7 budget.
Do you have any evidence of an overspend happening? you appear to be giving the DfT a lot of benefit of the doubt here, and I don't think that is justified given their involvement in other projects
 

MrJeeves

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dereksingh291

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Yes, 5 in addition to the 7 sets that were already coming from AWC.
okay so are they due to enter service with CrossCountry in June 2024 and will the Voyagers coming from Avanti be refurbished as soon as they enter service with CrossCountry but also what will happen to the remaining 6 Avanti Voyagers and when are Avanti West Coast due to have their 805s and 807s into passenger service?
 

MrJeeves

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okay so are they due to enter service with CrossCountry in June 2024
"Progressively" enter service from June 2024
will the Voyagers coming from Avanti be refurbished as soon as they enter service with CrossCountry
No idea, but XC have also just committed to a full fleet (Voyagers and Turbos) refurb by summer 2026.
what will happen to the remaining 6 Avanti Voyagers and when are Avanti West Coast due to have their 805s and 807s into passenger service?
I mean they'll just be cascaded to other TOCs as well like most rolling stock is...
 

poffle

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Firstly, thank you for sharing that insight!

Secondly, am I understanding correctly that the oil in that equipment needs its oil changed effectively every day? if so, that seems like it should be resolved quickly, because daily maintenance of that type must be expensive (even just to get staff on-site every day!)

To me, it sounds like something that needs sorting ASAP - The impacts this must be having on passenger and freight operations is unacceptable.


Do you have any evidence of an overspend happening? you appear to be giving the DfT a lot of benefit of the doubt here, and I don't think that is justified given their involvement in other projects
I suspect that "trips" in this context refers to how often the circuit breakers "trip" in an electrical sense rather than a number of train journeys.

I've no idea how often these circuit breakers would trip in normal operation. By definition it is usually because there is a fault in the 25kv network it's feeding either a contact to earth or maybe a lightning surge.
 

Trainbike46

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I suspect that "trips" in this context refers to how often the circuit breakers "trip" in an electrical sense rather than a number of train journeys.

I've no idea how often these circuit breakers would trip in normal operation. By definition it is usually because there is a fault in the 25kv network it's feeding either a contact to earth or maybe a lightning surge.
That does sound more likely, thank you for pointing that out
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Do you have any evidence of an overspend happening? you appear to be giving the DfT a lot of benefit of the doubt here, and I don't think that is justified given their involvement in other projects
Well I don't mean to be hyper-critical, and I don't know the facts in this case, but NR has a track record of incomplete, delayed or de-scoped projects when they have spent the budget (with overspend taking money from other projects).
DfT is not always to blame for the money running out.
Hopefully the problem will be fixed early in CP7 - but if HS2 money was expected to solve it, that's not going to happen.
 

Elecman

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Firstly, thank you for sharing that insight!

Secondly, am I understanding correctly that the oil in that equipment needs its oil changed effectively every day? if so, that seems like it should be resolved quickly, because daily maintenance of that type must be expensive (even just to get staff on-site every day!)
The oil in the Oil Circuit breakers ( and transformers) isn’t changed every day but will be checked by sampling after each fault level clearance. It is also tested on a routine basis ever few years for water contamination, acidity and Breakdown voltage value. Depending on the result of those tests the oil can either be filter cleaned or flushed and replaced

There was no ‘new’ feeder at Willow Park or Edge Hill. They are just new switching stations. Willow Park is still fed from the old Parkside 132kV grid feeder.
 

Jamesrob637

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Passed one today. Very smart in its AWC livery. Saw a further unbranded one in Euston too.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Here is the more complex answer to the power supply issues from a good known source:

"The government's direct involvement has been a forced reduction in the scope of the power supply upgrades along the Crewe - Preston section, and that's in addition to the poor supply capacity north and south of Carlisle as others have mentioned. The "new" feeder at Willow Park (close to Newton-le-Willows, and replacing the old Parkside feeder) was supposed to support autotransformer feeding all the way to the neutral section at Crewe Coal Yard; work started, as evidenced by the newer added insulators at the top of the structures, but got stopped by the government as a cost saving measure. The result is that the section between the neutrals at Crewe Coal Yard and just north of Weaver Junction (both Runcorn and Warrington routes) is still being fed by an old arrangement of conductors and circuit breakers. This has always been a weak section, I'm sure that drivers of (class) 90- and 92-hauled trains along here can confirm that. One problem that it is fed through old oil-filled circuit breakers, which can only see a limited number of trips (30?) before the oil must be changed; clearly this is a maintenance cost that Network Rail could do without. A related problem is that the poor supply is distorted by pairs of 90s, particularly those accelerating along the Down Slow Line north from Crewe where much of the train is still on the climb out of Basford Hall yard; and this distortion can cause premature overload circuit trips (the "distance protection" on the feeder sees a waveform distortion and assumes it's a line fault, not a freight train).

Of course this whole area would have had its feeder arrangements altered when work on HS2 was carried out in the Crewe area, but we know what's happened to that....."
DB has stood its class 90's down and Freightliner use their few erratically and then you got a class 92 each way over night so its hardly an intensively worked electric freight service anymore. That said i agree its a nonsense we still have the original oil circuit breakers in use here and even if the enhancement has been stopped they should be replaced under normal renewal budgets. Theres plenty of redundant VCBs off ECML that could have been transferred in the interim if they've been holding off waiting for the final HS2 gameplan to be developed.
 

Meerkat

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It does mean that all for any given coach letter the classes are the same for Pendolino and the new trains. As in J and K are always first class.
Doesn't it mean you get confused people on the platform wandering up and down between D and K wondering where their coach is?

Not sure I like the livery - the dark end is too long without a contrasting front.
 

Railperf

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Linslade is 90 PS on Up with no MU and 125ESP with no differential after the new speeds are introduced.

The Down will be 90 PS 100 MU and 125EPS with no differential.

Not sure when the drivers will be briefed / trained. Not all the boards are up yet!….
The PS limits stays in place as is. A new MU limit applies in certain places. My understanding is that where a PS and MU limit exist, then there is only scope for a single EPS limit. But in the locations where MU limits end and revert back to PS, then theoretically the pair of EPS limits can remain until the next MU limit kicks in?
 

Boodiggy

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The PS limits stays in place as is. A new MU limit applies in certain places. My understanding is that where a PS and MU limit exist, then there is only scope for a single EPS limit. But in the locations where MU limits end and revert back to PS, then theoretically the pair of EPS limits can remain until the next MU limit kicks in?
The EPS for Voyagers will go once the MU is in. There will not be differentials kept.
It is an AWC project and the decision will no doubt be there being sufficient 80X and minimal Voyagers.
The date this happens is still unknown. Looks like at least eight Voyagers will stay until December. Voyagers can run at MU anyway.
 

AJDesiro

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The EPS for Voyagers will go once the MU is in. There will not be differentials kept.
It is an AWC project and the decision will no doubt be there being sufficient 80X and minimal Voyagers.
The date this happens is still unknown. Looks like at least eight Voyagers will stay until December. Voyagers can run at MU anyway.
All voyager paths use diesel 805 timings so the impact should be minimal. Isn't the profile going live between Kilburn and Rugby next week?
 

Boodiggy

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All voyager paths use diesel 805 timings so the impact should be minimal. Isn't the profile going live between Kilburn and Rugby next week?
The plan was for week 01 but I haven’t checked the WON to see if that is still happening.
 

Bald Rick

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All voyager paths use diesel 805 timings so the impact should be minimal.

The point is Voyagers currently use ‘Voyager’ EPS

When the new MU profile is live,they will have to use the MU profile. Which is slower.
 

cambsy

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When will the Network Rail electronic sectional appendix pdf for West Coast Mainline, show the new speed profile for the 805’s and Multiple Units?.
 

Boodiggy

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When will the Network Rail electronic sectional appendix pdf for West Coast Mainline, show the new speed profile for the 805’s and Multiple Units?.
When it ‘goes live’
All of the updates are done so just waiting for the confirmed date (that keeps changing). Now drivers are passing out hopefully not too long!

There is worksites within the Easter weekend possessions for commissioning of the new signs, so hopefully some of the route will be done…
 
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