Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Richardr]

Problem is that the current London model is somewhat more expensive, especially at the weekend.

I went from St Albans to St John's Wood on Sunday, changing to the tube at West Hampstead. Using the Tfl contactless system on a credit card registered with them, they charge for two singles at £8 each or £16 in total.

On Keygo I would have been charged a £9.20 return to West Hampstead on a Sunday, plus then using the Tfl system two tube fares of £1.60, or a total of £12.40.

The difference was even higher a couple of Sundays ago going to Stratford International and back, which doesn't include the tube, and so would all have been at a off peak return buying from a train company, but not via Tfl which I used.

 

[JonathanH]

Problem is that the current London model is somewhat more expensive, especially at the weekend.

I think we will have to wait and see what is implemented but we shouldn't be under any illusion that there won't be losers as well as winners from the implementation of this if revenue neutrality (or a slight positive in the DfT's favour) is to be achieved.

People are always calling for simplicity and properly structured fares with fewer anomalies. This does represent an opportunity to do that.

 

[hwl]

I think we will have to wait and see what is implemented but we shouldn't be under any illusion that there won't be losers as well as winners from the implementation of this if revenue neutrality (or a slight positive in the DfT's favour) is to be achieved.

People are always calling for simplicity and properly structured fares with fewer anomalies. This does represent an opportunity to do that.

Exactly and it is easier to remove the complexity that is often cheaper once many have swapped to contactless as there are then fewer losers at that point.

 

[DominicFindlay]

Presumably if a guard or ticket inspector checks that you have tapped in (using a mobile scanner), then the system will have a better idea of which route you are taking and can adjust the fare accordingly.

If so everyone would have to be checked to ensure the correct fare. I suspect that route validators (pink readers) would be need to be added in some places to track your route.

 

[hkstudent]

Problem is that the current London model is somewhat more expensive, especially at the weekend.

I went from St Albans to St John's Wood on Sunday, changing to the tube at West Hampstead. Using the Tfl contactless system on a credit card registered with them, they charge for two singles at £8 each or £16 in total.

On Keygo I would have been charged a £9.20 return to West Hampstead on a Sunday, plus then using the Tfl system two tube fares of £1.60, or a total of £12.40.

The difference was even higher a couple of Sundays ago going to Stratford International and back, which doesn't include the tube, and so would all have been at a off peak return buying from a train company, but not via Tfl which I used.

Current TfL contactless farr system couldn't have super off peak fares while GTR has used that for most weekend fares, thus causing such difference.

I think with the expansion of the contactless zone, the current super off peak fare may need to be incorporated into the payment system, so eliminate such a difference.

And in regarding to HS1 Stratford International, the current PAYG system cannot incorate that station into fare zone, thus a seperate joruney fare. I would expect, if contactless payment is to replicate current fare system, then the fare would be incorporated, at least in contactless fare scale.

 

[Richardr]

Current TfL contactless farr system couldn't have super off peak fares while GTR has used that for most weekend fares, thus causing such difference.

I think with the expansion of the contactless zone, the current super off peak fare may need to be incorporated into the payment system, so eliminate such a difference.

And in regarding to HS1 Stratford International, the current PAYG system cannot incorate that station into fare zone, thus a seperate joruney fare. I would expect, if contactless payment is to replicate current fare system, then the fare would be incorporated, at least in contactless fare scale.

Thanks for your response on this.

I would have thought that either the fares should be the same whatever card is used, or it needs to be made clear to passengers that using contactless credit cards, and hence Tfl, is more expensive in a lot of cases, especially off peak. It also means it is worthwhile having two ways to pay, depending on location, even for one journey, hardly the simplification it seemed to be.

 

[plugwash]

And in regarding to HS1 Stratford International, the current PAYG system cannot incorate that station into fare zone,

If there was the political will to do so, it could surely be implemented into the capping scheme.

The question would be as-always who takes the financial hit for doing so.

 

[Hadders]

Fares become simpler as you just end up with Peak and Off Peak single fares but cheaper super off peak tickets get withdrawn
It becomes a large price increase via the back door, particularly for leisure travel - passengers think tapping their contactless cards is always cheaper but this isn't always the case. I posted some observations about Hertford East and Brookmans Park a couple of years ago. Brookmans Park is particularly interesting given that Grant Shapps is the MP.

Potters Bar and Brookmans Park Fare Observations

Sorry if this should probably go in an existing thread, but I didn't want to hijack any discussions. I looked into how this affects the market for someone who travels from this area to London during weekday off-peak, returns on a different day and is happy to avoid zone 1 if the journey is...

www.railforums.co.uk

March 2019 Oyster Extensions Confirmed

* Losers being those who currently get an off-peak day return that want to travel in the evening peak and those who travel at weekends. Oh, and those who want to break their journey. Although, if these people can continue to use paper tickets to make their journey...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[jnjkerbin]

According to this thread, the rollout of contactless to 53 stations was due by the end of 2022. I haven't been aware of any further publicity on this, nor how the TfL funding saga has affected this deadline, but it may interest some members to learn that in the last few days a pair of as yet unbranded, TfL style contactless readers have been installed at Dunton Green, the first station on the Sevenoaks line outside of Zone 6. So it seems this project is now getting underway and we can probably expect to see more of these appearing over the next few months

EDIT: Thanks to the mod who re-opened the old thread and moved this post into there

 

[martin2345uk]

I don't really understand all this... living in Chelmsford what would it mean for me travelling to London? I would just tap in in Chelmsford, and tap out at Liverpool Street and it would calculate the best fare depending on if I come back the same day etc?

 

[plugwash]

It would charge a fare, whether it will be the best fare is another matter. Certainly on the current contactless system there are situations where paper tickets are cheaper.

 

[winks]

I’ve found paper tickets are cheaper I’m afraid. For now I’ll stick with them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve found paper tickets are cheaper I’m afraid. For now I’ll stick with them!

I suspect the price of paper tickets in this area will increase, as they have in the TfL area, in order to force contactless use and so save money by closing ticket offices and reducing the number of TVMs.

 

[Vespa]

Disabled railcard T&Cs allows for discounts on peak time and first class travel on mainline services, how will this work with this Tfl scheme?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Disabled railcard T&Cs allows for discounts on peak time and first class travel on mainline services, how will this work with this Tfl scheme?

The former isn't difficult to implement. For the latter buy a paper ticket, First Class isn't in scope.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Disabled railcard T&Cs allows for discounts on peak time and first class travel on mainline services, how will this work with this Tfl scheme?

Railcard discounts are part of the second phase of the implementation. As for First Class, you'd have to use a paper ticket, the same as Oyster and Contactless inside the zones.

 

[swt_passenger]

First class is an easily solved problem. Just see Southeastern for the way ahead…

 

[Bletchleyite]

First class is an easily solved problem. Just see Southeastern for the way ahead…

I was going to add that I suspect 1st will be abandoned by most of the South East commuter operations anyway.

Chiltern: got rid years ago, while it came back briefly on the LHCS that is now declassified too
Southeastern: getting rid
London Overground: never had
Greater Anglia: got rid except the Norwich IC
c2c: got rid years ago
GWR: none on the suburban EMUs
Lizzie: never had
EMR locals: removed with the coming of the 360s

That only leaves:
LNR (almost totally unenforced and probably near-zero sales off peak)
Southern
Thameslink
SWR
Great Northern
GWR, Avanti, LNER, EMR and GA ICs

I would be unsurprised if the other five (actually three as the others are GTR) South East commuter operations followed, while if you want to use it on the ICs you'll just have to buy a paper or e-ticket.

Indeed I'd be unsurprised if we ended up with a total split in the longer term - contactless and Standard only for local services (with some sort of Oyster a like for people without credit/debit cards and kids) and compulsory reservation and yield managed pricing for ICs, with a few places where an IC is both where there's no alternative local service e.g. Crewe-Wigan.

 

[hwl]

According to this thread, the rollout of contactless to 53 stations was due by the end of 2022. I haven't been aware of any further publicity on this, nor how the TfL funding saga has affected this deadline, but it may interest some members to learn that in the last few days a pair of as yet unbranded, TfL style contactless readers have been installed at Dunton Green, the first station on the Sevenoaks line outside of Zone 6. So it seems this project is now getting underway and we can probably expect to see more of these appearing over the next few months

EDIT: Thanks to the mod who re-opened the old thread and moved this post into there

DfT are still pretty keen and tried to keep this separate from the funding arguments as they had no realistic option bar TfL to do this for them given the ultimate manifesto commitment deadline of December 2024. (with TfL delaying Project Prometheus to prioritise Oval)

I would be very surprised if lots of the earlier batches of extra stations (it only makes sense to go live with reasonably sized group in each area) weren't GTR ones as they need far less work than average as Key has been working for years already. e.g. I'd expect the stations down the BML to Brighton (which are in scope as the map on first page is a very old one and out of date) to be in the first batch.

 

[Benjwri]

Indeed I'd be unsurprised if we ended up with a total split in the longer term - contactless and Standard only for local services (with some sort of Oyster a like for people without credit/debit cards and kids) and compulsory reservation and yield managed pricing for ICs, with a few places where an IC is both where there's no alternative local service e.g. Crewe-Wigan.

How would that be manage on places where the rollout has already happened, such as GWR, and is allowed on IC and stoppers. You would either have to decrease the price for stoppers, which I presume neither TfL nor GWR will want to do, especially on the Elizabeth Line, or increase the price for IC services, and therefore significantly increase prices across the whole GWR network to account for this increase.

Having contactless only be valid on certain services, basically depending on stopping pattern, is horrendously consumer unfriendly.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'd hazard a guess that the pricing strategy may be revealed when the January March fares are uploaded, given they'll need to be in place ahead of the rollout.

 

[LUYMun]

I'm surprised Farnborough Main isn't listed as a PAYG station, there are a large number of passengers that travel to/from here, particularly for special events at Farnborough Airshow and International Exhibition. Even more so when it comes to Out of Station Interchanges with Farnborough North.

 

[hkstudent]

How would that be manage on places where the rollout has already happened, such as GWR, and is allowed on IC and stoppers. You would either have to decrease the price for stoppers, which I presume neither TfL nor GWR will want to do, especially on the Elizabeth Line, or increase the price for IC services, and therefore significantly increase prices across the whole GWR network to account for this increase.

Having contactless only be valid on certain services, basically depending on stopping pattern, is horrendously consumer unfriendly.

The case in the Netherlands / Japan would have excess machines on platforms for Intercity services. But that would be too expensive for the current cash-strapped DfT.

The whole fare system would likely need to be reformed, to allow cheaper regional fare and more expensive intercity fares, not base on TOC but base on the service/ stock.

This actually caused great disappointment in why major commuting towns like Milton Keynes, Cambridge, Bedford and Oxford are not in the contactless scheme.

 

[mattdickinson]

The case in the Netherlands / Japan would have excess machines on platforms for Intercity services. But that would be too expensive for the current cash-strapped DfT.

The whole fare system would likely need to be reformed, to allow cheaper regional fare and more expensive intercity fares, not base on TOC but base on the service/ stock.

This actually caused great disappointment in why major commuting towns like Milton Keynes, Cambridge, Bedford and Oxford are not in the contactless scheme.

The solution in the UK so far is different gatelines for express platform, such as Paddington platforms 6 & 7, and Victoriia platforms 13&14

 

[Benjwri]

The whole fare system would likely need to be reformed, to allow cheaper regional fare and more expensive intercity fares, not base on TOC but base on the service/ stock

I’d say it’s still less consumer friendly, given you’re basically relying on them knowing which stops count as which fare. The Heathrow Express already causes enough issues at Paddington, let alone having platform based fares at the likes of Reading. I would say the only real feasible way of doing this is installing readers on the trains themselves and making everyone tap in again, similar to London Buses

The solution in the UK so far is different gatelines for express platform, such as Paddington platforms 6 & 7, and Victoriia platforms 13&14

A solution that only really works at terminal stations, and even then causes problems. It’s just about acceptable with the limited services it’s used, but using it on all platforms would be infeasible with disruption etc, unless all gates were replaced and made ‘smart’, to know which train just arrived.

 

[hkstudent]

The solution in the UK so far is different gatelines for express platform, such as Paddington platforms 6 & 7, and Victoriia platforms 13&14

Rather difficult, as last-minute platform changes would ruin the whole scheme.
Especially for Paddington Station.

 

[778]

I suspect the price of paper tickets in this area will increase, as they have in the TfL area, in order to force contactless use and so save money by closing ticket offices and reducing the number of TVMs.

Do you think it will be cheaper to use a paper ticket with a network railcard discount, or contactless? Would it also mean the end of the travelcard agreement?

 

[Haywain]

Do you think it will be cheaper to use a paper ticket with a network railcard discount, or contactless? Would it also mean the end of the travelcard agreement?

As with contactless fares now, it will be necessary to consider your options each time. There will be no one simple answer.

 

[pbin]

I was going to add that I suspect 1st will be abandoned by most of the South East commuter operations anyway.

Chiltern: got rid years ago, while it came back briefly on the LHCS that is now declassified too
Southeastern: getting rid
London Overground: never had
Greater Anglia: got rid except the Norwich IC
c2c: got rid years ago
GWR: none on the suburban EMUs
Lizzie: never had
EMR locals: removed with the coming of the 360s

That only leaves:
LNR (almost totally unenforced and probably near-zero sales off peak)
Southern
Thameslink
SWR
Great Northern
GWR, Avanti, LNER, EMR and GA ICs

I would be unsurprised if the other five (actually three as the others are GTR) South East commuter operations followed, while if you want to use it on the ICs you'll just have to buy a paper or e-ticket.

Indeed I'd be unsurprised if we ended up with a total split in the longer term - contactless and Standard only for local services (with some sort of Oyster a like for people without credit/debit cards and kids) and compulsory reservation and yield managed pricing for ICs, with a few places where an IC is both where there's no alternative local service e.g. Crewe-Wigan.

It appears that what I have said below has largely been mentioned already:

In the Netherlands, IC services have a surcharge despite the whole nation using a PAYG smartcard system. There are readers on the platform which allow you to pay the surcharge (along with clear signage).

The only issue is policing this. They actually have staff to check smartcards almost all the time, something I don’t see happening here.

 

[crablab]

In the Netherlands, IC services have a surcharge despite the whole nation using a PAYG smartcard system. There are readers on the platform which allow you to pay the surcharge (along with clear signage).

Huh? No. InterCity services (delivered by NS) are not surcharged - you pay the same if you get on a Sprinter or an InterCity. One just takes longer.

There are different operators in some areas (open access, or concession) and for those you do need to check out with NS and then in with the other operator on the platform readers you describe.