Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[MikeWh]

how much does it cost to add an OSI? Surely there is a small set-up cost and no ongoing cost, so the "worth it" comment isn't really relevant?

You have to set up fares using the OSI and maintain them at every fares change.

 

[Trainbike46]

You have to set up fares using the OSI and maintain them at every fares change.

If the fares exist for paper tickets in the current setup, aren't we already doing that anyway?

it seems counterintuitive to offer through pricing on paper tickets but not Oval?

 

[MikeWh]

If the fares exist for paper tickets in the current setup, aren't we already doing that anyway?

it seems counterintuitive to offer through pricing on paper tickets but not Oval?

The two fares databases are not linked, as far as I know, so there is an extra step to maintain the PAYG fares. I'm not fully aware of all the processes involved, but some of the fares set up on the early Oval implimentations prove that knowledge of how the PAYG system works is not fully understood.

 

[JonathanH]

With the extension of contactless to both Windsor stations (Central and Riverside), has an OSI been set up between them?

The previous discussion (in February) was that it hadn't been, even though a small number of fares suggest that one was envisaged.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/project-oval-on-wmt-odd-fares.281303/#post-7161485

There are currently no OSIs outside London. Anyone doing Datchet to Slough via Windsor will be charged for two journeys. Anyone doing it via London will be charged the fare that Single Fare Finder shows...

 

[Taunton]

With the extension of contactless to both Windsor stations (Central and Riverside), has an OSI been set up between them? Should it be? Is it planned? As National Rail Enquiries will give through journey times and (non contactless) fares by this route (e.g. Staines to Slough), I would say it should...

Are there any other such situations, where OSIs should be set up within the 'Project Oval' area (outside the zones)? (St Albans and Southend are two that come to mind as possibles)

From a Slough office, I recall quite a movement of our staff between the two Windsor stations, Slough to Richmond etc being difficult otherwise. One was daily Slough to Whitton. Some I think used to do their grocery shopping on the evening walk between the two. Of course, being two different TOCs, there is probably no data of how many.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2025 ==

The two fares databases are not linked, as far as I know, so there is an extra step to maintain the PAYG fares. I'm not fully aware of all the processes involved, but some of the fares set up on the early Oval implimentations prove that knowledge of how the PAYG system works is not fully understood.

Um ... isn't that what the revenue management teams do for a living ...?

 

[mickey]

From a Slough office, I recall quite a movement of our staff between the two Windsor stations, Slough to Richmond etc being difficult otherwise. One was daily Slough to Whitton. Some I think used to do their grocery shopping on the evening walk between the two. Of course, being two different TOCs, there is probably no data of how many.

There are fairly large flows between the two Windsor stations, particularly to/from Staines and on rugby days.

There are lots of paper tickets priced ‘via Windsor’. There are also GWR-priced contactless fares but they aren’t actually charged because TfL haven’t set up an OSI. I’m actually very tempted to call them out on it - they show in NRE but in reality it’s impossible to pay that price, so it would be an open-and-shut legal case.

 

[JonathanH]

they show in NRE but in reality it’s impossible to pay that price

Not impossible if you go via Ealing, or if the barriers are open at Riverside.

 

[MikeWh]

There are also GWR-priced contactless fares

Can you give me an example of a station pair that this applies to?

 

[mickey]

Can you give me an example of a station pair that this applies to?

This was Slough-Staines, though it appears they no longer show in NRE (they definitely did when we discussed in in the last thread!) so it seems they’ve removed them now.

 

[JonathanH]

Can you give me an example of a station pair that this applies to?

Slough to Datchet is still priced as if there were a Windsor OSI, although 3 hours appears to be allowed for the journey.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks both. Slough to Datchet looks like an interesting one. The NRE fare (supposedly based on contactless) is much less than the fare shown on fare finders. It's even less than the sum of the two individual journeys.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The big problem that undermines support for this extension of contactless is the TfL afternoon peak. TfL need to get rid of the afternoon peak. It complicates fares and clashes with mainline rail fares including SWR that only have a morning peak. Rail passengers do not want an afternoon peak to be imposed where it does not currently exist. It would even be better to raise off peak fares slightly if necessary to make removing the afternoon peak revenue neutral instead of continuing with this afternoon peak that complicates fares.

 

[Benjwri]

The big problem that undermines support for this extension of contactless is the TfL afternoon peak. TfL need to get rid of the afternoon peak. It complicates fares and clashes with mainline rail fares including SWR that only have a morning peak. Rail passengers do not want an afternoon peak to be imposed where it does not currently exist. It would even be better to raise off peak fares slightly if necessary to make removing the afternoon peak revenue neutral instead of continuing with this afternoon peak that complicates fares.

Definitely agree with this. Even in the zones it an annoyance buying a paper ticket in the evening but tapping in the morning.

 

[JonathanH]

Rail passengers do not want an afternoon peak to be imposed where it does not currently exist.

What rail passengers want and what is imposed on them are different things. There are winners and losers in any kind of fares reform.

As the poster above effectively points out, some passengers who can travel to London before 0630 and back after 1900 are now paying off-peak fares, where they would previously have needed an anytime ticket. That is offset by people now caught by the afternoon peak fares.

It would even be better to raise off peak fares slightly if necessary to make removing the afternoon peak revenue neutral instead of continuing with this afternoon peak that complicates fares.

That is effectively what the off-peak zone 1 centric cap does, but it isn't much use for journeys that don't reach central London. For example, according to the Oyster fares site, Reading to London is £30.40 peak, £14.00 off-peak, but the off-peak cap is £34.40 (should this be £35.40 in line with the increased one day travelcard?), so the return peak journey should 'only' be £20.40, not £30.40.

 

[jon81uk]

The big problem that undermines support for this extension of contactless is the TfL afternoon peak. TfL need to get rid of the afternoon peak. It complicates fares and clashes with mainline rail fares including SWR that only have a morning peak. Rail passengers do not want an afternoon peak to be imposed where it does not currently exist. It would even be better to raise off peak fares slightly if necessary to make removing the afternoon peak revenue neutral instead of continuing with this afternoon peak that complicates fares.

I assume part of the issue is the fact that currently the single fare for most routes is not half the return, so most people commuting into London will buy an anytime (peak) return ticket, because they need to arrive into London before 9.30am. Its not possible or cheaper for many routes to get peak single in the morning and off-peak single in the evening on paper tickets. But once the ticket price is half the return price, it may be cheaper to get peak single in the morning and off-peak in the evening rather than an anytime return. The train is still full of commuters at 5.30-6pm and busy.

For example on my commute.
Anytime day return is currently £22.30
Off-peak day return is £16.10
Single is £13.50

So for contactless, if the single becomes half the return price, it is £11.15 peak and £8.05 off-peak. Which means without the afternoon peak hours my commute cost would drop to £19.20 (£11.15+8.05) from £22.30, a loss of revenue of £3.10 but the trains are still just as busy if not busier 5-6pm.
But on the days I meet a friend for drinks I would correctly only pay that £19.20 as I'd be returning home on a much emptier train after 7pm, whereas currently I'd still need to pay the £22.30 as my morning journey is still in the peak.
So the afternoon peak might even incentivise coming home later.

For most commuter routes it makes sense to have the afternoon peak and it does effectively currently exist due to the need to buy an anytime return in the morning.

 

[akm]

For example, according to the Oyster fares site, Reading to London is £30.40 peak, £14.00 off-peak, but the off-peak cap is £34.40 (should this be £35.40 in line with the increased one day travelcard?), so the return peak journey should 'only' be £20.40, not £30.40.

The Oyster fares site is then out of date compared to the latest caps at https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/national-rail-fares-beyond-zone-9 which show an off peak daily cap of 35.40

 

[MikeWh]

The Oyster fares site is then out of date compared to the latest caps at https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/national-rail-fares-beyond-zone-9 which show an off peak daily cap of 35.40

Wonderful. https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e..._as_you_go_with_contactless_caps_Mar_2025.pdf still says the price quoted on my site. I'll look into updating shortly.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The Oyster fares site is then out of date compared to the latest caps at https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/national-rail-fares-beyond-zone-9 which show an off peak daily cap of 35.40

Presumably this also applies to all the stations between Reading and Iver (plus the branches) where GWR are the fare setter following the fare change on 8th June.

 

[greatkingrat]

c2c warning passengers not to use contactless from stations east of Upminster/Grays because of incorrect fares being charged.

As an example, on the TfL Fare Finder, Basildon - Fenchurch Street is shown as £12.50 peak / £11.00 offpeak. BRFares shows £9.50 peak / £8.20 offpeak which I assume is what it should be. The £12.50 fare is the fare for a through journey involving the tube (eg Basildon - Oxford Circus)

https://www.c2c-online.co.uk/media-...-issue-currently-affecting-contactless-fares/

We advise customers travelling from stations east of Upminster and Grays to Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street to purchase paper or mobile tickets today to ensure you pay the correct fare. A technical issue in our fares data means pay as you go with contactless fares are currently being charged at an additional £3 for these journeys. All other journeys, including those onwards using the Underground, are unaffected. We are working with TfL to resolve the issue and will be issuing guidance soon on how to claim for a refund.

This only applies to journeys that either started or ended at Fenchurch Street or Liverpool Street stations.

c2c would like to apologise to customers for any inconvenience this technical issue is causing. Customers are advised to keep a full record of all contactless journeys where they have been overcharged, and a further update, including details of how to claim a refund, will be shared as soon as possible.

 

[sheff1]

We advise customers .……… to purchase paper or mobile tickets today to ensure you pay the correct fare.

Customers are advised to keep a full record of all contactless journeys where they have been overcharged, and a further update, including details of how to claim a refund, will be shared as soon as possible

And people are still saying contactless should be rolled out across the whole country !! If people making a straightforward journey on a self contained route can be overcharged by more than 30%, imagine how much you could be overcharged on a longer, more complicated journey.

 

[MikeWh]

I'd caution against using brfares as authoritative on what the fares should be.

However, if those fares are correct, then c2c are charging 10p more in the peak to use the Underground in zone 1 than splitting the journey in two.

 

[Haywain]

then c2c are charging 10p more in the peak to use the Underground in zone 1 than splitting the journey in two.

Isn't it TfL who do the charging for contactless?

 

[MikeWh]

Isn't it TfL who do the charging for contactless?

On the instruction of the train companies, yes.

 

[Haywain]

On the instruction of the train companies, yes.

That doesn't automatically mean that it c2c at fault.

 

[akm]

That doesn't automatically mean that it c2c at fault.

To quote from the BBC News page at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2jzx3l8zwo ,

TfL said: "We are aware that, following a pre-planned update to the fares data within the contactless pay as you go system last weekend, some of the data provided by c2c was incorrect."

It confirmed contactless fares on other routes were unaffected.

 

[MikeWh]

That doesn't automatically mean that it c2c at fault.

With Oval fares it does I'm afraid. TOCs provide the data which Cubic add to the CPAY database.

 

[weeklycommuter]

For most commuter routes it makes sense to have the afternoon peak and it does effectively currently exist due to the need to buy an anytime return in the morning.

There is no afternoon peak on the SWR network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no afternoon peak on the SWR network.

There will be when Oval rolls out. It is standard TfL times across the area.

They could opt not to standardise the paper fares with the Oval ones, but that would be a strange move as it would make using contactless in the evening undesirable.

 

[weeklycommuter]

There will be when Oval rolls out. It is standard TfL times across the area.

They could opt not to standardise the paper fares with the Oval ones, but that would be a strange move as it would make using contactless in the evening undesirable.

I doubt if it will be rolled out over any more of the SWR network. There is no sign of this happening at present. The rollout over the SWR network has been very limited, keeping almost entirely within the boundaries of Greater London. I cannot see anyone pushing for any extension to more of the SWR network if it means complicating ticketing by adding an afternoon peak at more stations.

 

[Mag_seven]

For speculation about "Ovalising" the Paddington to Reading flow please use this thread created by @Bletchleyite

Should fares to Reading and stations towards London be "Ovalled"

Yet that will lead to a significant price increase for people travelling on paper tickets. Idk about the WCML or Thameslink but the Anytime fares on the GWML are very expensive it would be an overnight doubling of fares via the back door if you harmonised the restrictions, which is grossly...

www.railforums.co.uk

thanks