Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Haywain]

Presumably it is capped by the Zone 1 centric cap if someone made enough journeys in a given day? Or does there have to be a touch out / in within Zone 6 for that cap to apply?

For journeys outside of the TfL zones, no caps apply. That is my understanding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For journeys outside of the TfL zones, no caps apply. That is my understanding.

Presumably if you went into a London terminal then took a Tube journey that would just be done as two journeys? The CPAY INFO fares don't appear to include Zone U<n> fare that I've noticed, certainly Bletchley doesn't, and those are typically just priced at <ticket to London terminals> + <Tube fare> anyway.

What woudl it do if you touched in at Bletchley, changed to the Overground at Watford, then again to the Bakerloo, and tapped out at Waterloo, I wonder?

 

[Haywain]

Presumably if you went into a London terminal then took a Tube journey that would just be done as two journeys? The CPAY INFO fares don't appear to include Zone U<n> fare that I've noticed, certainly Bletchley doesn't, and those are typically just priced at <ticket to London terminals> + <Tube fare> anyway.

What woudl it do if you touched in at Bletchley, changed to the Overground at Watford, then again to the Bakerloo, and tapped out at Waterloo, I wonder?

Those journeys are not outside of the London zones, so capping would apply (although your question appears unrelated to capping).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those journeys are not outside of the London zones, so capping would apply (although your question appears unrelated to capping).

So what cap would apply to Bletchley-Euston, a day swanning around Zone 1-6, then Euston-Bletchley? There isn't an obvious one other than the Travelcard price.

 

[Haywain]

So what cap would apply to Bletchley-Euston, a day swanning around Zone 1-6, then Euston-Bletchley? There isn't an obvious one other than the Travelcard price.

It would probably be the same and is from my local station, but I don't have that information.

 

[jon81uk]

So what cap would apply to Bletchley-Euston, a day swanning around Zone 1-6, then Euston-Bletchley? There isn't an obvious one other than the Travelcard price.

I would assume it would be Bletchley to boundary zone 6, 1-6 cap and boundary zone 6 to Bletchley, because currently sometimes just travel within the zones can be assigned that way as a 1-3 cap plus an extension. But I guess we won't fully find out until it launches.

 

[JonathanH]

I would assume it would be Bletchley to boundary zone 6, 1-6 cap and boundary zone 6 to Bletchley, because currently sometimes just travel within the zones can be assigned that way as a 1-3 cap plus an extension. But I guess we won't fully find out until it launches.

The extension fares will almost certainly be unpublished and set to ensure that the amount charged is consistent with the travelcard price from Bletchley. The DfT recognised pretty soon after the introduction of Contactless from Redhill that special extension fares were needed to avoid a loss of revenue.

This is different to how it works within the Zones, but also recognises that the caps in Zone 1-6 are the same all day, whereas off-peak and peak caps apply further out.

Anyway, Contactless is now a few months off, rather than imminent.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Many people do but that is of no consequence to the Phase 1 Oval area which is Contactless only.


There is an evening peak across London already for Oyster / Contactless single fares. Again of no consequence to freedom pass use.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[MikeWh]

Anyway, Contactless is now a few months off, rather than imminent.

What have I missed?

 

[JonathanH]

What have I missed?

This - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ess-payment-cards.231684/page-25#post-6516799

 

[MikeWh]

This can also be confirmed on @MikeWh's excellent Oyster Fares Central website, where the fare finder shows that a Reading to Twyford journey using contactless does not have an applicable cap.

I'll have to check the coding, but I suspect that is just because both stations are outside the zones. I can't tell easily whether both stations are on the same line or different. If different sides of London then caps and extension fares apply (eg Reading to Dartford) so it isn't just a simple cap.

 

[Haywain]

I'll have to check the coding, but I suspect that is just because both stations are outside the zones. I can't tell easily whether both stations are on the same line or different. If different sides of London then caps and extension fares apply (eg Reading to Dartford) so it isn't just a simple cap.

Twyford is the first station out of Reading in the London direction.

 

[MikeWh]

1. Will contactless morning peak begin at 0630 or 0430 in the extended area?

Almost certainly 0630.

2 Will it still be ok to change trains on contactless in the new area (and possibly pass through a gate line) and be charged the off peak fare even if it’s peak at change point but was off peak when touched in.

Almost certainly yes.

4. Will there be a contactless daily cap from the new area? How will it be applied if you touched in off peak pre 0630 (assuming that is the contactless change point) and then made all your other journeys off peak after 0930 and outside of 1600-1900. Will details of this cap be advertised?

The contactless caps will be the same as the daily travelcards. Note that even though off-peak prices are charged before 0630 the fares still only count towards the anytime cap.

Twyford is the first station out of Reading in the London direction.

Yes, I know that. My software does not have in-built geographic knowledge, however.

 

[MrJeeves]

Almost certainly 0630.

Indeed it will be, at least according to the CPAY fare restrictions currently in the data (provided they're actually accurate).

 

[MikeWh]

(provided they're actually accurate).

Never a truer word said in jest. I don't expect any changes to the blanket 0630 start time, but I never like to say never unless I'm categorically sure of the answer.

 

[MrJeeves]

Never a truer word said in jest.

It is frustrating that it's 0430 for paper but 0630 for PAYG. I get it from a logical perspective -- it would be hard to enforce customers joining a service pre-0630 and remaining on after with paper tickets.

Will be interesting to see how this might change for Phase 2. I can't imagine those commuting from Brighton to London will be allowed to tap in at 0630 and pay the off-peak price to arrive into London around 8am.

 

[JonathanH]

Will be interesting to see how this might change for Phase 2. I can't imagine those commuting from Brighton to London will be allowed to tap in at 0630 and pay the off-peak price to arrive into London around 8am.

Yes, that sounds like a real revenue strain, but equally Bletchley is over 40 miles out of London, and Shoeburyness just a bit less. Where would you draw the line?

I wonder what the revenue loss has been from Reading with off-peak fares prior to 0630.

 

[MrJeeves]

Yes, that sounds like a real revenue strain, but equally Bletchley is over 40 miles out of London, and Shoeburyness just a bit less. Where would you draw the line?

Presumably some sort of offset when you reach the (old) PAYG boundary where it drops down by roughly the journey time between each stop (or some other graduated stepped peak times).

Unlike paper, customers themselves don't need to worry about adhering to restrictions as the automatic charging will do it for them. As long as it can be clearly found online and at the station...

Perhaps, if not too complex, it could also use touch out time? At least my super off-peak travelcard's restriction is "Not valid on trains timed to into arrive London Terminals before 10:45." (though that fare will inevitably go away when Phase 2 starts) and my normal off-peak one is "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at London Terminals or Kensington Olympia before 09:45."

 

[Hadders]

Presumably some sort of offset when you reach the (old) PAYG boundary where it drops down by roughly the journey time between each stop (or some other graduated stepped peak times).

Unlike paper, customers themselves don't need to worry about adhering to restrictions as the automatic charging will do it for them. As long as it can be clearly found online and at the station...

Perhaps, if not too complex, it could also use touch out time? At least my super off-peak travelcard's restriction is "Not valid on trains timed to into arrive London Terminals before 10:45." (though that fare will inevitably go away when Phase 2 starts) and my normal off-peak one is "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at London Terminals or Kensington Olympia before 09:45."

I think using touch out times would make things unnecessarily complicated.

A start time of 06:30 for Anytime fares is simple to understand and makes sense. If anything it'll help shift loadings from the 'high peak' into the 'shoulder peak' which will help TOCs from a capacity point of view.

 

[MrJeeves]

I think using touch out times would make things unnecessarily complicated.

A start time of 06:30 for Anytime fares is simple to understand and makes sense. If anything it'll help shift loadings from the 'high peak' into the 'shoulder peak' which will help TOCs from a capacity point of view.

I also didn't really think about the fact one single peak time period could stagger the off-peak traffic onto a mix of services, too. No more cramming on to the first train to London arriving after 9:30, for example.

 

[winks]

So Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets aren’t available on PAYG but still available as paper tickets ?

I’ll stick with paper tickets quite happily. Pretty sure these tickets have only been around a year or so and was designed to encourage leisure travel within an hours commute to London after 2pm.

 

[MrJeeves]

So Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets aren’t available on PAYG but still available as paper tickets ?

No, they're being completely removed. PAYG (when it launches) and paper/e-tickets will be identically priced.

PAYG peak will only apply from 0630-0930 but standard tickets will be 0430-0930.

 

[Kite159]

So Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets aren’t available on PAYG but still available as paper tickets ?

I’ll stick with paper tickets quite happily. Pretty sure these tickets have only been around a year or so and was designed to encourage leisure travel within an hours commute to London after 2pm.

I'm pretty sure those type of tickets are getting withdrawn on the stations going across to Contactless

 

[Haywain]

No more cramming on to the first train to London arriving after 9:30, for example.

No, it will be cramming on to the first post-0930 departure instead. For many people this will mean their off peak options start even later than now.

 

[MrJeeves]

No, it will be cramming on to the first post-0930 departure instead.

...which will be a different train to the first post-0930 30 miles up or down the line, helping with overall capacity.

Leaving London before/after evening peak is what I'd be worried about.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

...which will be a different train to the first post-0930 30 miles up or down the line, helping with overall capacity.

Leaving London before/after evening peak is what I'd be worried about.

Even then, I would assume there is going to be some spreading out (although not nearly as much): For example, the 18:59 that leaves Waterloo just before the evening peak ends will be able to pick up passengers at Clapham Junction who touched in after 19:00 and therefore at an off-peak time. You may also get passengers deliberately arriving for the 16:05 ten minutes early so that their touching-in counts as off-peak.

On the other hand, I wonder if this system risks safety problems around 19:00 with passengers for a train that leaves at - say 19:01 - deliberately waiting until a few seconds after 19:00 to touch in and then running en masse for the train (Not generally an issue on TfL because services are generally so frequent plus you're usually only talking a quid or so's difference in fare).

I think the biggest criticism of a fixed 09:30 touch-in limit for off-peak fares is that it is a ridiculously late time for stations that are - for example - over an hour from London (thinking about Alton, when stage 2 is rolled out).

 

[JonathanH]

I think the biggest criticism of a fixed 09:30 touch-in limit for off-peak fares is that it is a ridiculously late time for stations that are - for example - over an hour from London (thinking about Alton, when stage 2 is rolled out).
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/pay-as-you-go-caps?intcmp=55569

There are some locations on the original Oyster map where the off-peak period for the cap, but not single fares, starts before 0930. As we might expect the boundary fares to be set such that caps are hit for return journeys, it is therefore possible that the peak period will be softened in this way for trips to Zone 1 from the Project Oval Phase 1 area.

Off-peak caps at different times
If you travel from a station listed below on a weekday, between the touch in time and 09:30, you're charged a peak pay as you go fare. However, your journey will count towards an off-peak cap.

Station Touch in from
Chalfont & Latimer 09:20
Amersham 09:10
Chesham 09:10
Bushey 09:20
Carpenders Park 09:20
Enfield Chase 09:20
Hertford North 09:20
Watford High Street 09:10
Burnham (contactless only) 09:10
Slough (contactless only) 09:20
Taplow (contactless only) 09:10
Maidenhead (contactless only) 09:18
Twyford (contactless only) 09:10

The problem is that this is all Zone 1 centric, and doesn't apply for shorter, or longer journeys.

 

[SWT_USER]

There are some locations on the original Oyster map where the off-peak period for the cap, but not single fares, starts before 0930. As we might expect the boundary fares to be set such that caps are hit for return journeys, it is therefore possible that the peak period will be softened in this way for trips to Zone 1 from the Project Oval Phase 1 area.



The problem is that this is all Zone 1 centric, and doesn't apply for shorter, or longer journeys.

Given the bin fire this is turning in to, it feels highly unlikely any extra level of detail will be added.

 

[akm]

So what cap would apply to Bletchley-Euston, a day swanning around Zone 1-6, then Euston-Bletchley? There isn't an obvious one other than the Travelcard price.

For stations beyond zone 9 where contactless is available, cap prices can be found here https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/national-rail-fares-beyond-zone-9 . I imagine this page will be updated as new stations are launched.

 

[Haywain]

For stations beyond zone 9 where contactless is available, cap prices can be found here https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/national-rail-fares-beyond-zone-9 . I imagine this page will be updated as new stations are launched.

Unfortunately, that is still incomplete for current contactless stations - St Albans, Harpenden and Luton Airport Parkway are not there and have been accepting contactless for several years.