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Propelling/ Driving from other than a leading cab.

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Nigell

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Hi All
Looking for some help if possible, can someone actually fully explain what propelling is and it’s speed’s related. Also it’s difference to “driving from other than a leading cab”
I have come across conflicting issues
With speeds and think I may have my wires crossed. I always thought that propelling was pushing without brake continuity, but in tw1 it states that you must drive from the leading cab where possible. Prob is would that not then be hauling and not propelling?
Also understood it to be 5 mph without brake continuity but tw1 suggests 20. ( which I thought was driving from other than…..) but then tw5 states that for this the speed is

At a reduced speed which will allow the
movement to be stopped in the distance that
the person controlling the movement can see
to be clear.

Any help is very much appreciated

Thanks
 
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bengley

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Propelling is just reversing.

Not done on passenger trains anymore, but very common on freight.
 

FGW_DID

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Think of a single HST power car shunting around a depot - only has a driving cab at one end. If the cab is facing the direction of movement it’s the leading cab And the driver would drive normally. Once the move changes direction, there is no leading cab so it becomes a propelling move and the driver is driving from a non leading cab (it’s the only driving cab :D ). The movement would be at such speed as described in your post.

hope that makes sense?
 

Supercoss

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Rule Book module SS2 refers
"Propelling Pushing vehicles by a traction unit. This does not include push-pull train"
-
speed is company specific and location may also alter things if driver can not change ends safely once propelled move completed y

" I may have my wires crossed. I always thought that propelling was pushing without brake continuity, but in tw1 it states that you must drive from the leading cab where possible. Prob is would that not then be hauling and not propelling?"


Are you thinking of "banking" where additional traction unit pushes from rear of consist but may not physically be coupled ??
 

contrex

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In my youth I used to regularly see EPB formations, 8 cars long, reverse from a Down platform at Herne Hill onto the the Tulse Hill spur, stop, and come back again, crossing over to the Up side, all done from what was the trailing cab at the start of the operation. The drivers used to lean out quite a way.
 

Cheshire Scot

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Propelling is just reversing.

Not done on passenger trains anymore, but very common on freight.
Propelling is still done with passenger trains in circumstances such as joining of Caledonian Sleeper portions at Edinburgh and Carstairs, but used of course to be much more widespread.

At some stations ECS was propelled into the platform (or out of the platform) which avoided having a loco trapped in behind the train.

In both of the above examples the brakes would be connected and used.

In the past it was also common for a locomotive to be driven from the 'wrong' end during shunting movements.
 

martin2345uk

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I was taught to drive the locomotive from the cab facing away from the wagons when propelling the wagons backwards. I guess it doesn't really matter as you won't be able to see where you're going no matter what cab you drive from, being controlled by the shunter over radio. Driving from the "rear" cab just means you don't need to keep changing ends when shunting wagons.
 

theking

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Propelling and driving other than the leading cab are the same thing. 20mph

It only is 5mph if no brake continuity.

Eg;
Assisting a train from the rear is propelling but you are still not driving from the leading cab so you are driving other than the leading cab.
 

Jimini

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Spent many a day in the ‘90s watching Virgin Cross Country trains doing this at Reading to change direction towards Basingstoke or Oxford. No through roads there anymore to facilitate of course, not that they’re needed these days!
 

FGW_DID

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Spent many a day in the ‘90s watching Virgin Cross Country trains doing this at Reading to change direction towards Basingstoke or Oxford. No through roads there anymore to facilitate of course, not that they’re needed these days!

Are you perhaps confusing propelling with “running round”? Still perfectly feasible today with no through roads as such.
 

Efini92

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Propelling and driving other than the leading cab are the same thing. 20mph

It only is 5mph if no brake continuity.

Eg;
Assisting a train from the rear is propelling but you are still not driving from the leading cab so you are driving other than the leading cab.
Propelling is when there’s no leading cab.

Driving from other than the leading cab is exactly what it says.
 

Gloster

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An explanation from my time on the railway, so possibly out of date. Propelling is when the power unit/loco in a non-multiple unit formation is at the rear of the train and is pushing the non-powered vehicles. The position of the driver in the power unit/loco (which cab) is irrelevant.

If a driver is working from the rear cab of a train it is just that. It is not, in itself, propelling.
 

LAX54

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Propelling and driving other than the leading cab are the same thing. 20mph

It only is 5mph if no brake continuity.

Eg;
Assisting a train from the rear is propelling but you are still not driving from the leading cab so you are driving other than the leading cab.
Wasn't it changed (in theory) from Propelling by the Clear English Society (or very similar name) when the new RB was produced, as Propelling was deemed 'unclear'
 

FGW_DID

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The lead cab does not need to be at the front of the train, if a Loco is propelling a rake of wagons for example, the lead cab would be the cab next to the wagons as that is the ‘lead driving cab’ in the direction of travel.
 

MotCO

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What is it called when the traction power is not at the front? I seem to recall that the Gatwick Express once had the engine at one end which pulled the train when it was at the leading end, but used to push the train when returning to its original terminus. The leading carriage when being pushed had a cab at the non-traction end. (I was never sure how safe it was pushing a train at speed.)
 

swt_passenger

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What is it called when the traction power is not at the front? I seem to recall that the Gatwick Express once had the engine at one end which pulled the train when it was at the leading end, but used to push the train when returning to its original terminus. The leading carriage when being pushed had a cab at the non-traction end. (I was never sure how safe it was pushing a train at speed.)
Has it got a special name? On the last point I‘d expect it would be just as safe as a 4REP pushing 8TC, and just as safe as a 91 pushing a Mk4 set and DVT. I doubt it’s really relevant to this discussion topic though…
 
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contrex

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I seem to recall that the Gatwick Express once had the engine at one end which pulled the train when it was at the leading end, but used to push the train when returning to its original terminus. The leading carriage when being pushed had a cab at the non-traction end. (I was never sure how safe it was pushing a train at speed.)
The Gatwick Express sets had a Class 73 loco at the country end, and a GLV (Gatwick Luggage Van) at the London end. The GLVs were converted from 2-HAP multiple unit motor cars, which kept their traction equipment (2 x 250 hp motors). The rake of Mark 2 coaches was pushed by the loco and also at the same time pulled by the GLV. The Southern had considerable experience in 'push-pull' operations with the 1967 Bournemouth and Weymouth stock, where a powerful 4-REP 'tractor unit' pushed 1 or 2 4-TC trailer car sets from London to Bournemouth and pulled them going back, and a Class 33 diesel loco pulled one or two trailer sets on to Weymouth, and then pushed them back to Bournemouth again to couple on to a tractor unit to return to London. The 4-car trailer units had driving cabs at each end and looked just like EMUs. Apparently some jolting was felt by passengers in the trailer units at station starts when a REP was pushing, until all the couplings were compressed. Before the Bournemouth electrification, the Southern Region conducted a number of tests mainly in lines in Kent involving Class 74 locos and EMUs being propelled at up to 100 mph. I don't think being in push-pull stock which is being pushed is any less safe than being in an EMU. Post 1963 type SR EMUs (BIG, CIG, VEP) had a single intermediate motor coach so in a single one of those you were being either pushed or pulled depending on where you were sitting.
 

Ken H

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Of course in the days of portion working of hauled stock, propelling moves were common.
I remember getting a train to torquay from Leeds when i was a kid. 4 coaches and the train loco were in the platform. Then the portion from Bradford came in and was shunted on the back, so there must have been a propelling move of the bradford portion loaded with passengers onto the static portion already full of passengers. Off we go to Sheffield where more coaches were propelled onto the back. How they undid all that considering the portions to detach were at the front of the train i dont know.

Even more fun was the manchester/liverpool - Glasgow/edinburgh trains that joined at Preston and divided at Carstairs, complicated by being electrically hauled north of preston. And i think the liverpool portion had to go to manchester every other night for maintenance.
 

FGW_DID

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What is it called when the traction power is not at the front? I seem to recall that the Gatwick Express once had the engine at one end which pulled the train when it was at the leading end, but used to push the train when returning to its original terminus. The leading carriage when being pushed had a cab at the non-traction end. (I was never sure how safe it was pushing a train at speed.)

Apart from “push-pull” operation, there is no special name. If the Loco is at the rear and pushing, the driver will be in the driving cab of the lead carriage so will just drive normally.
 

507020

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Even more fun was the manchester/liverpool - Glasgow/edinburgh trains that joined at Preston and divided at Carstairs, complicated by being electrically hauled north of preston. And i think the liverpool portion had to go to manchester every other night for maintenance.
This could be done now using 397s (although the lack of gangways would prevent passengers from one portion moving to the other portion en route) and with the benefit of electrified routes from Preston to both Liverpool and Manchester!
 

Cheshire Scot

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This could be done now using 397s (although the lack of gangways would prevent passengers from one portion moving to the other portion en route) and with the benefit of electrified routes from Preston to both Liverpool and Manchester!
But no longer requiring any portion to reverse/propel.
 

Ashley Hill

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We used to propel ecs unit shunt moves to save the driver having to change ends and save time. Although allowed in the rule book my TOC stopped it because they didn’t trust their guards. All moves must now be driven from the front cab. If a failure occurs any propelling move must have another driver controlling the movement at the front.
 

Ken H

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We used to propel ecs unit shunt moves to save the driver having to change ends and save time. Although allowed in the rule book my TOC stopped it because they didn’t trust their guards. All moves must now be driven from the front cab. If a failure occurs any propelling move must have another driver controlling the movement at the front.
Remember the complicated moves in Shipley before they built the through platforms. Trains to keighley went past on the avoiding line and stopped. The guard was ready in the other cab and instructed the driver with buzzer codes. Cant remember the procedure the other way but the driver changed ends in the station and the train reversed by the scrap yard. 1st gen DMU. Loco hauled didnt stop at Shipley.
 

fulmar

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The Rule Book used to have a clear definition of what constituted propelling but I think it was removed some time ago. I don't have it to hand to check.

Based on what it used to say my understanding is that "propelling" and "driving from other than the leading cab" are different things.

The definition of "propelling" used to be something like, "Unpowered vehicles being pushed by a traction unit which is not operating in multiple with them". The "not in multiple" bit is important as it differentiates propelling from driving from other than the leading cab.

A locomotive pushing coaching stock or wagons would be propelling because the things that are being pushed are not working in multiple with the thing that is doing the pushing. A push pull train with the locomotive at the back is not propelling because the things that are being pushed are working in multiple with the thing that is doing the pushing.

Driving a multiple unit from the rear cab for a shunt move or because the driving controls are defective in the leading cab is not propelling. It is just driving from other than the leading cab.

The maximum speed for propelling is 20mph except (I think) for an officers special which used to be 45mph though I'm not sure if it still is. Propelling "officers" is not something I'm ever likely to be doing..

The maximum speed for driving from other than the leading cab isn't actually defined as far as I can recall and will vary depending on the exact circumstances.
 

randyrippley

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Presumably on an "officers special" the loco would be propelling a single wagon carrying guards and/or guns for protection. With just a single low height vehicle leading, visibility would be better than when pushing a rake
 

Cheshire Scot

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Presumably on an "officers special" the loco would be propelling a single wagon carrying guards and/or guns for protection. With just a single low height vehicle leading, visibility would be better than when pushing a rake
1st April was yesterday!

Remember the complicated moves in Shipley before they built the through platforms. Trains to keighley went past on the avoiding line and stopped. The guard was ready in the other cab and instructed the driver with buzzer codes. Cant remember the procedure the other way but the driver changed ends in the station and the train reversed by the scrap yard. 1st gen DMU. Loco hauled didnt stop at Shipley.
A loco hauled equivalent of this was at Inverness where most arrivals from the North ran along the Rose Street curve then propelled into the 'south' platforms. To a lesser extent there were some arrivals from the south which also took the Rose St curve then propelled into the north platforms.
Two benefits from this practice were cross platform connections and quick release of the arriving loco.

From memory I would say as soon as the train cleared the relevant points and came inside the signal the signaller set the road and cleared the signal which would suggest the driver probably did not have time to change cabs, and presumably the guard was in the rearmost brake vehicle ready to apply the brake if the driver misjudged the distance. Whilst some of the trains involved were relatively short, I do recall trains of up to eight coaches making these moves, and possibly longer.

Across the water there were the memorable moves at Limerick Junction where all trains other than the Limerick branch shuttle required to either reverse in or out due to the unique layout there.

Edit: Still in Ireland, remiss of me to not have (until now) mentioned Killarney, with the layout of a terminal station but on a through route meaning trains to Tralee had to propel out and trains to Mallow and beyond had to propel in.
Also to note some of the Limerick branch shuttles (above) ran through to/from Waterford which also required propelling moves.
 
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4F89

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Propelling is pushing stuff about, rather than pulling it.

A leading cab is the one that faces the same direction as the movement. In the case of 2 locos attached, this would be the MOST forward of the cabs, in relation to the movement.

Propelling at 20 is permitted on the mainline, but for shunting usually is 3 round my way.
 
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