As seen below, there is a consulation about changing the minimum age to 18 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz747krrw9lo
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Proposal to decrease minimum train driver age
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Rebekah555
Member
Aren’t all job posts massively oversubscribed already? How is there a shortage?
My opinion on this is that it will lead to some sort of national training centre whereby trainee drivers will be trained and gain qualification, apprenticeship will be offered to school leavers hence the reduction in age. TOC'S will then not be paying for the training (maybe it will fall on the trainees themselves) and after you qualify you then interview for jobs at the various TOC'S.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are unlikely to be TOCs within 5-10 years.
I think that any shortages is more the lack of actually eligible applicants compared to to the amount who actually apply (of which most will not pass). That said, I do wonder if it's actually going to make much of a difference lowering the age or if operators will still prefer older candidates with a bit more experiences. I can't really think of a reason to lower it, but at the same time I cannot think of a reason not to either, so perhaps this could go ahead anyway as long as it's not a detriment to the process and gives more opportunities to under-20s and school leavers.
I think the idea of a national training centre or annual courses might become a thing along with more apprentices for school leavers, but making the trainees pay for them would be counterintuitive since the idea of lowering the age in the first place is to increase the potential applicants in the talent pool, so making them pay for it would put poorer people at a disadvantage, and train driving right now is arguably one of the best jobs for social mobility since you don't need any particular qualifications and it is mostly about whether you simply have the skills or don't. The biggest barrier is mostly the opportunities arising themselves.
Well whatever companies/government is running things then.
If you read the 2nd line, it talks about people hitting retirement age. But you are right there is hardly a "shortage" when there are hundreds of applicants per space.
BrummieBobby
Member
The bigger issue is surely the training bottle neck; no shortage of applicants (regardless of suitability) but too few training places, too few assessors.
The “shortage” is down to companies not A) recruiting adequately B) looking after & retaining their staff.
There is plenty of applicants for jobs, every trainee advert is over subscribed with applications. It’s the quality of candidate that seems to be the problem (from what a DTM has told me recently!)
There is plenty of applicants for jobs, every trainee advert is over subscribed with applications. It’s the quality of candidate that seems to be the problem (from what a DTM has told me recently!)
Precisely. There’s no problem sourcing good quality candidates for the role, so it’s perhaps necessary to read between the lines and look for the real motivation for this proposed change.
Perhaps the government hopes 18yos are less likely to want to be paid grown up salaries, and are less likely to join unions and stand up for themselves.
Yes this is the big one - getting people onto a training programme which is naturally somewhat limited, dealing with small recruitment teams and then issues with DIs and assessors.
I'm sure most TOCs would love to run a rolling recruitment programme, but it isn't always as easy as it seems!
Based on some of those who get through initial recruitment, but then fail to make the grade at a later stage, there’s definitely still an issue around selecting the right candidates from the multitudes who apply.
Inevitably small recruitment teams have their work cut out and this proposed change would only add to the numbers they have to whittle down. I gather they’re also consulting on raising the maximum number of attempts at the aptitude tests, which will increase numbers of potentially weaker applicants still further.
It’s difficult to see what the point of these proposals is (beyond my cynical suggestions above
) and I wonder whether they’ve been thought through at all.notadriver
Established Member
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IThe minimum age to drive on the London Underground has been 18 for a very long time but I’m guessing once the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines get their new trains there will no manual driving except in degraded situations.
357
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This is the second time I've seen this said in this thread.
In my experience between 2-4% of applicants actually pass everything and then pass out.
There's no shortage of applicants but there is a shortage of competent applicants.
Backroom_boy
Member
So you could argue if you are apprentice trained you have payed for your training in a lower salary.
Wouldn't be suprised if driver training becomes a twin track route of either apprenticeship or pay for training through salary sacrifice.
Wouldn't be suprised if driver training becomes a twin track route of either apprenticeship or pay for training through salary sacrifice.
Trainee driver roles have technically been 'apprenticeships' for a number of years now with no difference to salary because of it. It's essentially just a legal fiddle to allow the TOCs to claim back the money they have to pay in Apprenticeship Levy.
Maybe, but I can't see any link between that and these current proposals.
driver9000
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Lowering the minimum age requirement for train drivers from 20 to 18
Seeks views on lowering the minimum age requirement for train drivers from 20 to 18 to attract new people to the industry.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
If staff from other railway grades wish to apply for footplate jobs would they get overlooked if too old. Will this mean drivers jobs will only be available to school leavers?
DMckduck97
Member
My first thoughts are this is the way for the government to get the train driver wage down, I'm sure whatever programme comes out of this will come with a much lower salary than currently offered.
Let's face it, an 18 year old fresh out of college or six form is offered a place on this programme and the salary is 30k, leaving school they will lap it up.
The impending retirement and shortage of drivers across the industry is a self inflicted policy decision.
As mentioned throughout this thread there is no lack of talent waiting to apply or even worse sitting in a talent pool watching psychometric test scores expire...
Let's face it, an 18 year old fresh out of college or six form is offered a place on this programme and the salary is 30k, leaving school they will lap it up.
The impending retirement and shortage of drivers across the industry is a self inflicted policy decision.
As mentioned throughout this thread there is no lack of talent waiting to apply or even worse sitting in a talent pool watching psychometric test scores expire...
The proposal is for a reduction in the minimum age to do the job, so shouldn’t affect those over 20. It’s a little difficult to see why that, in and of itself, will be beneficial given that trainees under 25 are a rarity, and there’s a massive surplus of applicants in any case.
I don’t think that’s been suggested anywhere.
I agree. Although I also think it’s not been properly thought through, won’t achieve what they want it to, and may have unintended consequences. As with so many of their other policies.
The gushing foreword by Huw Merriman praising how important and highly skilled we are is deeply ironic, given what’s happened over the past few years, and will certainly raise a few eyebrows amongst the grade.
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PupCuff
Member
I'm really pleased to see things going in this direction. It is getting easier for younger people to forge a career in the industry now, certainly much more so than when I started a decade or so ago.
No, it certainly isn't a one stop shop for the issues that we have recruiting drivers, but potentially if we open the doors to those who are a bit younger they'll in turn develop in their careers earlier and we'll see them as the DIs and DMs of the future, this in part helping with the recruitment issues into those roles.
No, it certainly isn't a one stop shop for the issues that we have recruiting drivers, but potentially if we open the doors to those who are a bit younger they'll in turn develop in their careers earlier and we'll see them as the DIs and DMs of the future, this in part helping with the recruitment issues into those roles.
DMckduck97
Member
I think a big reason why some TOCs may have a shortage of DIs is down to the lack of remuneration for said role!
The graph in the consultation shows there's under a 1000 drivers in the UK between 20-30, not entirely sure what changing the minimum age to 18 is expected to achieve?
If there's one thing I've learned from looking at the graph in the government document, it's that train driving is mostly an upper-middle-aged profession. I should first prelude what I'm about to say with a disclaimer that my maths may not be on point, but adding up the numbers on the graph (specifically the train drivers above the age of 40) and comparing it to the total number of train drivers listed (23,819), I worked out that 76.8% of train drivers are over 40 years old. I understand that some degree of life experience is valued, particularly in the areas relating to working alone, acting in emergency situations, and concentrating for a long period of time, all things which are much more likely to be attained with age compared to coming straight out of school, but if my maths is correct then surely it would now be in the industry's interest to start leaning towards younger talent at this point?
For full reference, here's a screenshot of the graph I was talking about below:
For full reference, here's a screenshot of the graph I was talking about below:
How would you know how many are passing each stage? Of course the vast majority of people are sifted out early doors.
The point of the process is to get hundreds of applicants down to that 2-4% which equals 100% of the available places, so I don't really understand your point.
Whether the sifting and assessment process is getting the right quality of applicants is a different discussion.
The RT3251 pyschometric entry selection test was changed a few years ago, the success rate is higher than with the original test from the 1980s/1990s.
The new test is easier and allows re-tests confined to the modules of which the candidate did not pass on earlier attempts.
Regarding age , you may be suprised by the number of drivers with university degrees, those drivers would be at least 21 years of age having completed a 3-year BSc or BA degree course.
The new test is easier and allows re-tests confined to the modules of which the candidate did not pass on earlier attempts.
Regarding age , you may be suprised by the number of drivers with university degrees, those drivers would be at least 21 years of age having completed a 3-year BSc or BA degree course.