Proposals for Uckfield Line Electrification following Gibb Report

[RichJF]

Hi all,

I'm based in nearby East Grinstead but this popped up today. I know the Uckfield Line causes many a thread so here is the latest one...electrification has been proposed.:roll:

http://uckfieldnews.com/uckfield-line-electrification-proposed/

Electrification of the Uckfield Line has been recommended to the government in a series of proposals which could transform the Cinderella service.

• Out would go the unreliable diesel trains to be replaced by an electrified service
• Some Uckfield Line services could serve destinations north of London
• Crowborough would be the depot for trains on the Uckfield Line
• There would be more seats with some trains having room for 1,000 people (including those standing)
• Electricity supply to the trains would be by overhead wires and not the “third rail” used across much of the Southern network.
• Electric trains could be running by 2021 with the Class 171 diesels, which have caused so many problems in the past year, banished to other parts of the country.

The proposals are contained in a comprehensive report on Southern by Chris Gibb, a senior figure in the rail industry, whose report was published yesterday (June 22).

All these proposals are unfunded at present.

Out would go the unreliable diesel trains to be replaced by an electrified service
Some Uckfield Line services could serve destinations north of London Crowborough would be the depot for trains on the Uckfield Line
There would be more seats with some trains having room for 1,000 people (including those standing)
Electricity supply to the trains would be by overhead wires and not the “third rail” used across much of the Southern network.
Electric trains could be running by 2021 with the Class 171 diesels, which have caused so many problems in the past year, banished to other parts of the country.

I don't know serious this is, or just another proposal for the line that might not see the light of day so you're welcome to discuss.

 

[XDM]

It is a well argued case for electrification. It would be interesting to hear the electrical experts, who often contribute to the forum, views on whether a single input from the national grid can supply the whole 25 mile line operating 12 car trains. Mr Gibb's case seems to rest on this being possible. He also reveals that a short new extension of the much reviled (on the forum) third rail dc IS PERMISSIBLE towards Edenbridge town so that the switch from third rail to the new overhead can be done on the move & out of the way of East Grinstead services. This extension must be at least a mile long to be effective(my guess) & if allowed opens the door for the short dc extensions needed to electrify Wokingham to Reigate( & onto Gatwick).

 

[A0wen]

Hi all,

I'm based in nearby East Grinstead but this popped up today. I know the Uckfield Line causes many a thread so here is the latest one...electrification has been proposed.:roll:

http://uckfieldnews.com/uckfield-line-electrification-proposed/

Out would go the unreliable diesel trains to be replaced by an electrified service
Some Uckfield Line services could serve destinations north of London Crowborough would be the depot for trains on the Uckfield Line
There would be more seats with some trains having room for 1,000 people (including those standing)
Electricity supply to the trains would be by overhead wires and not the “third rail” used across much of the Southern network.
Electric trains could be running by 2021 with the Class 171 diesels, which have caused so many problems in the past year, banished to other parts of the country.

I don't know serious this is, or just another proposal for the line that might not see the light of day so you're welcome to discuss.

Are Southern's class 171's "unreliable"? The Turbostar is a well-established design now used across the network.

And aren't there clearance problems on the line which prevent Mk3 stock being used? So I wonder what is being suggested?

 

[maniacmartin]

Electrification and a Crowborough depot was recommended in the Gibb Report, which the government released to the public yesterday. This is likely to be what prompted the local newspaper to write about it.

 

[HSTEd]

[sarcasm] Yes, but this assumes magical 25kV electrification.

Which will cost nothing and be totally reliable.... yeeaaah.
[/sarcasm]

25kV projects on the Southern are (as far as anyone can tell) dead - and since ORR and NR have decreed that Third rail is not to be used, nothing will happen.
The Gibb report, says third rail is out on the orders of ORR, and given the wreck that is the English 25kV programme.... I'm not hopeful

 

[JohnR]

Yes, but this assumes magical 25kV electrification.

Which will cost nothing and be totally reliable.... yeeaaah.


25kV projects on the Southern are dead - and since ORR and NR have decreed that Third rail is not to be used, nothing will happen.
The Gibb report, like most other ORR backed hatchet-jobs against third rail, uses unsupported assumptions and also assumes you would design a third rail railway like it was the 1960s.

I dont think it is a hatchet job on third rail, though. He fleshes out the 25KVA option because thats what ORR has told him would be acceptable, but seems to suggest that cost wise there isnt much in it either way.

He also doesnt suggest the 25kVA will cost nothing - rather that the cost will be repaid via the contractor (he suggests SNCF, as the franchise has a clause allowing Keolis to provide additional services), and their charges to the operator for electricity.

 

[rebmcr]

1000-passenger trains on 25KV running onto the BML 750V and then onwards north of London? Sounds like Thameslink to me...

 

[steamybrian]

Have been talking about electrifying the line for so many years that each time the subject is raised that I say " here we go again..!"
I believe it when I see it.........

 

[GRALISTAIR]

1000-passenger trains on 25KV running onto the BML 750V and then onwards north of London? Sounds like Thameslink to me...

True. Probably won't happen in my lifetime- too many other schemes are higher priority.

 

[nomis1066]

Nothing wrong with 171's at all. Probably Southern's best units so far as passenger comfort goes. But totally needless to be running these anywhere in the predominantly 3rd rail network - indeed most of their mileage is over that 3rd rail.

Yes - this talk of electrification has all originated in the Gibb report which by and large appears to come up with ideas that any bunch of railway people could do over a mess room table.

The Uckfield line is a busy railway now - the novel idea of through services and new trains has seen useage soar and overcrowding is a real issue. It beggars belief that this route hasnt been earmarked for 3rd rail and AND had those three single line sections that have hamstrung the route for years, restored to twin track let alone putting right the 1969 butchery of a decent main line at Uckfield. It beggars belief. None of this work (3rd rail and twin track - hopefully BML2 will deal with the missing 7 miles) is difficult and surely should've taken priority over platform extensions!

As for safety concerns re 3rd rail - are we going to see the miles of existing conductor rail ripped up? If it's unsafe that is exactly what should be done - and never will be

 

[HSTEd]

Results permitting I am actually hoping to start a PhD in September on "New topologies for DC railway electrification".

 

[swt_passenger]

... hopefully BML2 will deal with the missing 7 miles...

Presumably you've seen all the discussion about the extremely low probability of BML2 ever happening?

 

[Bald Rick]

It beggars belief that this route hasnt been earmarked for 3rd rail and AND had those three single line sections that have hamstrung the route for years, restored to twin track let alone putting right the 1969 butchery of a decent main line at Uckfield. It beggars belief. None of this work (3rd rail and twin track - hopefully BML2 will deal with the missing 7 miles) is difficult and surely should've taken priority over platform extensions!

Biggest chuckle of the day!

How much were the platform extensions?
What benefit did the platform extensions have?

And how much would electrification and redoubling be?
What benefit would electrification and redoubling have?

 

[bangor-toad]

Resilience issues aside, surely it would be relativiy easy to connect a 25Kv supply for electrifying the line?

The 400Kv UK main grid passes a couple of miles south of Uckfield. Whilst tappping into that isn't entirely easy (!) it is at least very close.

If that's not possible then there seems to be a 33Kv plyon line that croses the track between Ashurst and Cowden. That should be easier to tap.


A 3rd rail system requires sub stations all along the line. I think it's every 2 to 5 miles between them.

It seems a far easier concept to use OHLE at 25Kv with a single supply compared to requiring multiple substations through rural countryside.

 

[HSTEd]

Resilience issues aside, surely it would be relativiy easy to connect a 25Kv supply for electrifying the line?

The 400Kv UK main grid passes a couple of miles south of Uckfield. Whilst tappping into that isn't entirely easy (!) it is at least very close.

Doing anything to tap the Supergrid is ridiculously expensive.

If that's not possible then there seems to be a 33Kv plyon line that croses the track between Ashurst and Cowden. That should be easier to tap.

You can't tap 33kV lines for 25kV, you need 132kV and up for phase imbalance reasons.
Third rail, however can be drawn from any power level down to potentially 400V in certain very limited circumstances.

A 3rd rail system requires sub stations all along the line. I think it's every 2 to 5 miles between them.

Substations for third rail are however much cheaper, and as I said above my PhD is partially about making them much cheaper still taking advantages of new technologies.

It seems a far easier concept to use OHLE at 25Kv with a single supply compared to requiring multiple substations through rural countryside.

Easier concept until the cost baloons like every other 25kV scheme of the current programme.

 

[bramling]

Resilience issues aside, surely it would be relativiy easy to connect a 25Kv supply for electrifying the line?

The 400Kv UK main grid passes a couple of miles south of Uckfield. Whilst tappping into that isn't entirely easy (!) it is at least very close.

If that's not possible then there seems to be a 33Kv plyon line that croses the track between Ashurst and Cowden. That should be easier to tap.


A 3rd rail system requires sub stations all along the line. I think it's every 2 to 5 miles between them.

It seems a far easier concept to use OHLE at 25Kv with a single supply compared to requiring multiple substations through rural countryside.

The cost of tapping into the grid is extremely expensive, although it may need to happen for DC too depending on what other supplies are in the area.

However, there are some issues with designing what would be an isolated AC scheme. First of all there would need to be an AC/DC interface, presumably somewhere between Hurst Green and Edenbridge Town. For this there needs to be equipment to keep the two systems safely separate. Technically feasible, but extra expense.

However, for me the bigger issue is that a robust AC scheme requires too separate feeds in case of outage or maintenance - otherwise your newly electrified railway lacks resilience. Notwithstanding whether two supplies can be found in the area, again this is adding extra cost for a relatively short section of railway.

Having said that, DC isn't ideal either - as the system would need to be designed to accommodate rather variable load factors - 2x 4-car EMUs on the branch during the daytime, but potentially 4x 12-car EMUs drawing current at peak times.

I can see why "do nothing" may end up being what happens.

 

[gingertom]

how about 319s with diesel power packs? Porterbrook may be onto a winner.

 

[adrock1976]

how about 319s with diesel power packs? Porterbrook may be onto a winner.

I believe that the Class 319s are too big for one of the tunnels along the route.

I posted something similar in the Porterbrook Class 769 thread the other day.

 

[Feathers44]

I believe that the Class 319s are too big for one of the tunnels along the route.

I posted something similar in the Porterbrook Class 769 thread the other day.

Yes, that's been repeated in both this tread and the 319 thread a couple of times. If they didn't fit last week, they still won't fit this week.

 

[AndyW33]

OK, so now we know 319s won't fit. What in service or on-order EMU classes will fit?
Presumably if 319s are a no-go, that rules out all the other Mk3 derived units too (317/318/320/321/322/455/456).

 

[Elecman]

I believe that the Class 319s are too big for one of the tunnels along the route.

I posted something similar in the Porterbrook Class 769 thread the other day.

Not knowing the area or the tunnel but couldn't that be another job for Filly (ala Farnworth)? Infill with foam concrete and rebore.

 

[hwl]

Not knowing the area or the tunnel but couldn't that be another job for Filly (ala Farnworth)? Infill with foam concrete and rebore.

At 2065m a sightly bigger job than Farnworth!

 

[daikilo]

OK, so now we know 319s won't fit. What in service or on-order EMU classes will fit?
Presumably if 319s are a no-go, that rules out all the other Mk3 derived units too (317/318/320/321/322/455/456).

We don't "know" that 319s won't fit (or at least if they don't, then why). We do know that 171s do fit and they are over 23m, albeit narrower overall.

 

[Elecman]

At 2065m a sightly bigger job than Farnworth!

Just a tad bigger, maybe 2 Fillys then lol

 

[SpacePhoenix]

if they were to electrify it with overhead, would there be many structures that would either need raising or the track underneath them lowered?

 

[nomis1066]

Presumably you've seen all the discussion about the extremely low probability of BML2 ever happening?

All I have seen is Grayling showing no interest in public funding for it. There is much going on behind the scenes with regard to private sector involvement. A look at the BML2 website will show a recent update.

 

[nomis1066]

Biggest chuckle of the day!

How much were the platform extensions?
What benefit did the platform extensions have?

And how much would electrification and redoubling be?
What benefit would electrification and redoubling have?

Not sure I understand the question you finish with. I hate to think how much the platform extensions cost. Today's railway seems to fall into the 'Stick an extra zero on the bill" category.

Benefits of redoubling? Put it this way - a single line sectioned railway is half a railway twice as likely to go wrong. Electrification benefit? Is it not a benefit to integrate a busy commuter railway into a predominantly 3rd rail network thus doing away with the need for route specific trains thus releasing diesels to lines that need them? Neither of these jobs are difficult and if there is more hands on project management by NR, costs will hopefully fall.

Platform extensions? Well I would have put them 3rd in the list of priorities. A longer platform accomodates longer trains and you can't walk through a 10 car 171 and the extension cuts out the need for selective door opening.

 

[hwl]

Resilience issues aside, surely it would be relativiy easy to connect a 25Kv supply for electrifying the line?

The 400Kv UK main grid passes a couple of miles south of Uckfield. Whilst tappping into that isn't entirely easy (!) it is at least very close.

If that's not possible then there seems to be a 33Kv plyon line that croses the track between Ashurst and Cowden. That should be easier to tap.


A 3rd rail system requires sub stations all along the line. I think it's every 2 to 5 miles between them.

It seems a far easier concept to use OHLE at 25Kv with a single supply compared to requiring multiple substations through rural countryside.

Doing any electrification will require an upgrade of the cabling and substations from Ninfield Grid Supply Point (where the UKPN network is connected to the 400KV route westwards from Dungenness) as there isn't much/enough spare local capacity for electrification.

 

[hwl]

Not sure I understand the question you finish with.

A subtle hint:
the the first pair of questions lead to a good BCR and fairly low cost, the second pair of questions lead to an abysmal BCR and high cost.

Hence why the platform extensions were the first on the list.

 

[physics34]

We don't "know" that 319s won't fit (or at least if they don't, then why). We do know that 171s do fit and they are over 23m, albeit narrower overall.

Their profile does not fit in oxted, neither does and mk3 based stock