Proposals for Uckfield Line Electrification following Gibb Report

[Mikey C]

In some ways the driver for electrification comes as much from the London end as it does from the countryside end, as it removes diesels from London Bridge station and from the crowded parts of South London where the trains run through, and pollution is far more of a London issue than a rural Kent/Sussex issue.

 

[Bald Rick]

So Peter being robbed to pay Paul?

In a sense, yes, but that's not the point I was making.

The point is that many (and possibly all) projects in the BR era claimed to cost X, but the real cost was Y where Y>X. The difference between X and Y was costs that were not accounted to the project, even though they were specifically incurred by them.

 

[Hophead]

Dual voltage stock shouldn't be a problem. Southern will be getting all the 377/2s back before too long (if not already). And then there's the 377/5s, what's happening to them?

That's all very well, but simply doesn't go far enough. Mr Gibb correctly identifies that one of the problems with the Uckfield line is that incoming diesels have to go back the way they came and, furthermore, fit in with the single-line sections for timetabling reasons (or get turned short in one direction or other).

Electrifying with OHLE simply swaps one set of route-bound stock for another, unless you're going to add in the AC capability to pretty much any Electrostar on Southern.

Gibb reckoned the scheme could be done for less than £100 million, but I doubt he's factored in the cost of fitting out the majority of the 377s for dual-voltage collection. If you're not going to do that, there seems to be little point (or, you argue for 3rd-rail and avoid the issue, albeit introducing a familiar debate.....).

 

[yorksrob]

Talking of the BML, the idea that electrification to Uckfield justifies another rehash of reopening a line through the countryside to Lewes… please, not again – we’ve already had threads about SELRAP (Skipton – Colne), the Somerset & Dorset and the line from Tavistock to Okehampton in the past month… could we not spread out the wistful threads about re-opening scenic lines through relatively empty sections of the countryside out a bit?

If we’ve just spent millions extending Uckfield line stations to ten coach trains and passenger demand is keeping up with the supply of new seats then that suggests there’s not going to be a lot of scope for Lewes passengers to get seats too.

I don't wish to denigrate your sense of geography, however I think you'll find that most of the Uckfield line already travels through the countryside.

Passengers travelling from the South to Wealden stations will have plenty of room to catch the train before Wealden passengers travelling to London join.

 

[adrock1976]

Tricky one.

I’m pro-electrification, especially when there’s a “diesel island” to sort out. You’d free many more DMU coaches (per mile of electrification) by wiring Uckfield than you would with pretty much any other scheme in the UK – due to the long formations and the fact that they spend so much time on Third Rail.

(Okay, you’ve have to then take those DMUs out of service for a couple of years whilst someone turned the couplers back to what they used to be - if Southern’s slow progress at converting 170s to 171s is anything to go by - but even still…)

You can then run from Uckfield to a choice of London destinations (rather than DMUs being restricted to certain platforms at London Bridge due to emissions and banned from Victoria), you can interwork them with other Southern services, you can use the stock more efficiently… it all sounds positive.

I suppose that the difference is that, on most lines electrification is that wiring a line is enough to give other benefits too. In blunt terms, a lot of the other schemes around the UK have seen electrification as the means to provide longer trains, newer trains, better acceleration, better frequency etc. So we look at the increased passenger numbers as proof that electrification works but some of the benefit comes from seeing knackered two coach trains replaced by more reliable four coach trains.

Given the “cold feet” that the industry has had about ordering new DMUs and the potential surplus of midlife EMUs, electrification has seemed the best way of achieving these kind of improvements elsewhere in the UK. It’s a one-step way of getting from thirty/forty metre 75mph DMU to an eighty metre 100mph EMU with better acceleration. It can solve a number of issues in one move.

But, the Uckfield line has seen extensions to ten coaches anyway to cope with demand (so “EMUs = longer trains” doesn’t work here). It’s had additional DMUs acquired for it (so not like electrification was the only option to get more seats). It’s all run by post-privatisation stock (unlike most of Southern). The 171s already have the joint-fastest top speed of any Southern stock (so speed benefits are marginal, rather than replacing a 142/150/156 with a 100mph EMU). There are no gaping gaps in the timetable that can only be filled by more stock (given the bottlenecks further north). So the marginal benefits of electrification are less significant here than they would be on some other routes (e.g. if you can replace a thirty metre 75mph Pacer in the Valleys with a mid-life 100mph EMU then you’ve got a quicker/ longer train that can accelerate better and deliver a faster more reliable timetable… but replacing a Turbostar with an Electrostar won’t give those improvements).

So, given the other schemes available around the UK, it starts to feel like less of a priority. Especially given the other schemes committed to that have stalled (MML, elements of the TPML and GWML). We’ve still got a long list of “things that were promised before now” without getting into the “nice to have” list.

There’s also the issue of what to do about Marsh Link… since the two can share resources at the moment but electrifying one without the other may leave a headache. D-trains? Bundle it to Uckfield electrification (in which case the costs go up a lot but with only a smaller marginal benefit)?

I’d still consider Uckfield a reasonable priority, I can think of a lot of lines that could do with the dozens of turbostar coaches it would cascade to other lines, I have no problem with electrifying a line in “the south” if it frees up lots of DMUs to benefit lines in “the north” that don’t have a great for electrification (e.g. hourly branches up here may not have a great case for wiring but could do with some post-privatisation 23m long DMU carriages).

However, whilst I’m not a big fan of the idea of making places pay directly for infrastructure improvements (since there’s not a level playing field of abilities to pay for things), any further investment (on a line that has seen new DMUs, extended platforms etc in recent years) may mean that the local fares are brought into line with the BML – which would be unpopular and potentially push more people off Uckfield stations towards already busy BML… but the idea of allowing cheaper fares on the branch is only really explainable on the basis that they see a second-class level of service compared to the main line. How do you get the passengers to accept a higher fare to pay for electrification when the service isn’t appreciably different (modern ten coach 100mph trains being replaced by modern ten coach 100mph trains)?

Talking of the BML, the idea that electrification to Uckfield justifies another rehash of reopening a line through the countryside to Lewes… please, not again – we’ve already had threads about SELRAP (Skipton – Colne), the Somerset & Dorset and the line from Tavistock to Okehampton in the past month… could we not spread out the wistful threads about re-opening scenic lines through relatively empty sections of the countryside out a bit?

If we’ve just spent millions extending Uckfield line stations to ten coach trains and passenger demand is keeping up with the supply of new seats then that suggests there’s not going to be a lot of scope for Lewes passengers to get seats too. And that’s before anyone focusses their attention away from the quaint quiet end of “BML2” and starts thinking about how to get beyond Croydon and whether it’s worth finding something north of the Thames for this scheme to connect to. Solution seeks problem, GSOH essential

Some reasonable points covered in this post.

Regarding Marshlink (is that the line that runs between Hastings - Ashford International - I'm not very familiar with precise routes or nicknames south of the mighty Thames?) and if it is the line that runs between Hastings and Ashford International, I suggested recently (I think it was in the Porterbrook Class 319 conversion thread) that converted Class 319s could be used on diesel power between Ore and Ashford International.

I would also like to mention that (not just you, but a couple of other posters as well) that I have seen references made to Southern. If it is the Train Operating Company that is being referred to, it has not existed since the summer of 2015, when the former First Capital Connect TOC and the former Southern TOC merged together and became Govia Thameslink Railway.

It is similar as to how Glasgow Rangers FC have not existed since the end of the season in 2012, when they started liquidation proceedings after being caught operating a tax dodging scam. Charles Green (the same Charles Green who was the self styled "saviour" of Sheffield United, who left them in a worse financial state after he trousered a lot of money out of it) came along and set up Sevco, and applied to be a member of the Scottish FA as a new outfit. This new outfit became The Rangers, Rangers FC 2012, and now presently Rangers International Football Club.

 

[otomous]

Some reasonable points covered in this post.

Regarding Marshlink (is that the line that runs between Hastings - Ashford International - I'm not very familiar with precise routes or nicknames south of the mighty Thames?) and if it is the line that runs between Hastings and Ashford International, I suggested recently (I think it was in the Porterbrook Class 319 conversion thread) that converted Class 319s could be used on diesel power between Ore and Ashford International.

I would also like to mention that (not just you, but a couple of other posters as well) that I have seen references made to Southern. If it is the Train Operating Company that is being referred to, it has not existed since the summer of 2015, when the former First Capital Connect TOC and the former Southern TOC merged together and became Govia Thameslink Railway.

It is similar as to how Glasgow Rangers FC have not existed since the end of the season in 2012, when they started liquidation proceedings after being caught operating a tax dodging scam. Charles Green (the same Charles Green who was the self styled "saviour" of Sheffield United, who left them in a worse financial state after he trousered a lot of money out of it) came along and set up Sevco, and applied to be a member of the Scottish FA as a new outfit. This new outfit became The Rangers, Rangers FC 2012, and now presently Rangers International Football Club.

Can't use 319s on the Marshlink as it has some very short platforms and the 319s have no Selective Door Opening. 377s do have SDO so that would be better. The Turbostars have a less sophisticated form of SDO controlled by the guard which gets round that issue.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I like all the posts about the reliability of the turbostars, as the reality is they are anything but reliable. I have no idea what Southern has done to them but the full 10 car service was introduced last July. I seem to recall that there was only 1 or 2 days when the trains ran at the correct lengths, there was then a phase when most of the trains were run shorter than 10 units. We are now back at a position when most of the services that were 10 car units are indeed 10 car units, however not all of them are. There are regularly days when trains are short formed due to maintenance issues, and frequent days when units break down in service.

However offset against that is the fact they are comfortable, much more so than any electric unit operated by Southern.

I am not sure how bridges the line passes under, not awake usually to count them! However I don't believe there are that many of them, seem to recall a few were rebuilt last year.

Electrification of the line definitely makes sense. The timetable consultation also makes interesting proposals for the Uckfield line, but I'd best go and look for the right thread on that!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I see that this is being discussed in Government next Wednesday.

WESTMINSTER HALL

9.30am
That this House has considered the Gibb report on Southern Rail: Huw Merriman

 

[HSTEd]

It is worth noting that to provide acceptable fault performance it is likely that a 25kV scheme would require two Grid Supply points, rather than merely one.

This is because there is absolutely no chance for cross-feed from neighbouring schemes in the event of a fault - a loss of the GSP would result in a total blackout.
Unless you were to try something crazy like a railway-operated single phase pole line from another 25kV scheme - where is the closest one to the Uckfield line?

This does tend to significantly increase the cost of schemes like this.
I wonder if Gibb considered that in the report itself.

EDIT:

Turns out he did.... and then just said it would have to be examined later.

A National Grid connection will need to be identified to feed the line, and consideration given to whether it would be sufficiently reliable to power the route without an alternative connection. National Grid only work on an emerging costs basis on this kind of connection, so predicting the cost and timescale can be difficult.
Nevertheless electrification experts have experience of this.
This will be the largest cost element of electrification.
I have not been able to establish where the National Grid connection is best achieved.

That does not sound very encouraging vis a vis the accuracy of the cost estimates.

 

[bangor-toad]

I tried to look at what the power supply lines are like around the whole line. It's not easy information to find (well for free).

The SuperGrid does go close by Uckfield but as was pointed out earlier the costs of directly using that are $$huge$$.

However, it does appear that there is a 132kV plyon line from the Bolney supergrid connection point that crosses the railway line between Ashurst and Cowden. That could be realtively easy to use?
(Power engineering isn't my area so it's just an idea)

There also appears to be some grid transformer and plyon line of unknown voltage just above Crowborough tunnel. Perhaps that could be used?

I don't think that finding supply points is actually goign to be too challenging or expensive. The whole area is covered quite well due to the population density it seems.
Of course, I may be utterly wrong...

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[mr_jrt]

I suppose that one option would be to do Marshlink as the follow-on project, and use the feeder for that as the backup feeder for Uckfield (abet a very long one), and vice-versa...unless Marshlink would just be end-fed from Ashford.

Still, treating the Uckfield link as essentially an end-fed 25kV branch doesn't seem too unreasonable...

 

[HSTEd]

I suppose that one option would be to do Marshlink as the follow-on project, and use the feeder for that as the backup feeder for Uckfield (abet a very long one), and vice-versa...unless Marshlink would just be end-fed from Ashford.

Still, treating the Uckfield link as essentially an end-fed 25kV branch doesn't seem too unreasonable...

Problem with doing it like that is you start to eat away at the supposed reliability improvements that are meant to be one of thea dvantages of 25kV over third rail, and indeed of electric operation over diesel operation.

If a DC substation goes out of service because of power supply failure or a rectifier problem, you can normally loop it out and run some kind of service through the section [even if its a case of nothing more than notch 2 or something on the controllers and trying to coast most of it]

If the entire line drops out that is the end of it.
Remember this is not a typical branch line in that it only has one substation available, so instead of only being subject to some sort of line failure, it is also subject to a substation transformer failure that would not normally effect a branch line that is attached to a larger scheme.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If Marshlink were electrified, if they were to use 4 car EMUs, how many units would be required (allowing for a potential increase in services)?

 

[hwl]

I tried to look at what the power supply lines are like around the whole line. It's not easy information to find (well for free).

The SuperGrid does go close by Uckfield but as was pointed out earlier the costs of directly using that are $$huge$$.

However, it does appear that there is a 132kV plyon line from the Bolney supergrid connection point that crosses the railway line between Ashurst and Cowden. That could be realtively easy to use?
(Power engineering isn't my area so it's just an idea)

There also appears to be some grid transformer and plyon line of unknown voltage just above Crowborough tunnel. Perhaps that could be used?

I don't think that finding supply points is actually goign to be too challenging or expensive. The whole area is covered quite well due to the population density it seems.
Of course, I may be utterly wrong...

Cheers,
Mr Toad

The 400kV East west line just south of Uckfield feeds a Grid Supply Point at Ninfield which then serves several areas in East Sussex and West Kent with 132kV in case of the most of the Uckfield Branch area the local 33KV circuits are fed from the Lewes 132KV circuit. The area at the northern end of the Uckfield Branch is fed from the London Supply area via local 33kV circuits from Chelsfield and Royal Tunbridge Wells 132KV circuits

The 132kV lines that crosses the Uckfield branch has 2 purposes:
a) to feed Dormansland substation and then all the local 33kv and 11kv local circuits arround East Grinstead area from the Bolney end.
b) reserve capacity in case one of the other North - South 132kV or 400kV circuits in Kent is lost so Northfleet can be reliably fed via Bolney - Pembury circuit 132KV circuit in a more round about way.

 

[cle]

Is the idea of running HS trains to Hastings still kicking around? With works at Ashford...

It'd still need a shorter service for the local shacks though.

But in theory, 'the regions' need DMUs (good ones at that) - and Uckfield seems a ripe candidate to provide a fair few units. Seems to be 12 x 2 car and 8 x 4 car - pretty decent. Could well serve two diesel routes fully, or just go into the random mix (e.g. for Northern).

 

[JohnR]

Is the idea of running HS trains to Hastings still kicking around? With works at Ashford...

It'd still need a shorter service for the local shacks though.

But in theory, 'the regions' need DMUs (good ones at that) - and Uckfield seems a ripe candidate to provide a fair few units. Seems to be 12 x 2 car and 8 x 4 car - pretty decent. Could well serve two diesel routes fully, or just go into the random mix (e.g. for Northern).

That would be joined up thinking that seems lacking in today's railway.

The obvious answer is to extend 3d rail, so that you dont have to use dual voltage stock (same with marshlink), send the 171s up north. I'd also do the North Downs line (or that mileage that isnt already) and send the 165s/6s west.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they weren't going to limit 3rd rail extensions or where then another couple would perhaps be SWML the junction where the Salisbury line diverges to Salisbury and Basingstoke to Reading (the tracks for the Waterloo-Reading route)

 

[Feathers44]

If they weren't going to limit 3rd rail extensions or where then another couple would perhaps be SWML the junction where the Salisbury line diverges to Salisbury and Basingstoke to Reading (the tracks for the Waterloo-Reading route)

I think that the Reading woute would make sense to AC electrify, personally, but Uckfield stands out as a DC requirement if it were to make any sense. Having said that, even I (with little practical knowledge of power engineering to impede my imagination) pause at the number of feeder stations (or whatever they call them) that may be required to achieve it. Given that I don't see them wireing down, to East Grinstead any time soon, however, I think that anything that gets put in place should surely have a long enough life to justify the expense?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I think that the Reading woute would make sense to AC electrify, personally, but Uckfield stands out as a DC requirement if it were to make any sense. Having said that, even I (with little practical knowledge of power engineering to impede my imagination) pause at the number of feeder stations (or whatever they call them) that may be required to achieve it. Given that I don't see them wireing down, to East Grinstead any time soon, however, I think that anything that gets put in place should surely have a long enough life to justify the expense?

Basingstoke-Reading is meant to be electrified as part of the electric spine but iirc it got split off from that, it's anyone's guess as to when it'll get done, my gut feeling is that it'll be CP8 at the earliest

 

[mr_jrt]

The original proposal was to convert East Grinstead to Sanderstead to OHLE as part of electrifying Uckfield-Oxted, giving a somewhat larger scheme.

 

[HSTEd]

The original proposal was to convert East Grinstead to Sanderstead to OHLE as part of electrifying Uckfield-Oxted, giving a somewhat larger scheme.

Ripping out good electrification gear to gain economies of scale does not sound particularly economic

 

[mr_jrt]

I suspect the point was as part of a rolling program of standardisation, with the south end of the BML lined up as later phases. Converting the branches first means the disruptive mainline (and its junctions to said branches) can be left until near the end. The removed DC gear would then be used to replace life expired DC infrastructure due to be converted in the final phases, i.e. inner London, etc.

Similar early phases were to convert the Kent lines served by HS1 over to overhead so the Javelins could drop their DC equipment.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think that the Reading route would make sense to AC electrify, personally, but Uckfield stands out as a DC requirement if it were to make any sense.

Basingstoke-Reading is meant to be electrified as part of the electric spine but iirc it got split off from that, it's anyone's guess as to when it'll get done, my gut feeling is that it'll be CP8 at the earliest

The original proposal was to convert East Grinstead to Sanderstead to OHLE as part of electrifying Uckfield-Oxted, giving a somewhat larger scheme.

Ripping out good electrification gear to gain economies of scale does not sound particularly economic

I suspect the point was as part of a rolling program of standardisation, with the south end of the BML lined up as later phases. Converting the branches first means the disruptive mainline (and its junctions to said branches) can be left until near the end. The removed DC gear would then be used to replace life expired DC infrastructure due to be converted in the final phases, i.e. inner London, etc.

Similar early phases were to convert the Kent lines served by HS1 over to overhead so the Javelins could drop their DC equipment.

Exactly. In the heady days of 2012 when the spine concept was mooted and the coalition government was keen to wire everything and standardize even the DC with AC it all made sense. Now of course there is not the money; the politicians were way over-optimistic crayonistas; we are well behind on truly needed schemes; HS2 will consume engineering resources no matter what people say to the contrary and it would be political suicide to convert DC (already electrified) before other areas with zero electrification get done.

 

[cle]

The ideological third rail thing is so boring - infill shouldn't be a problem.

The AC programme nationally is so far behind and with so many other gaps, the Southern network must be 50+ years away, if ever.

Two of the country's busiest railways are third rail and run 1000s of trains relatively smoothly. A short branch extension to somewhere most people have never heard of is hardly egregious in the context of the electrification policy. Moronic.

North Downs is even more bitty, with stretches dotted throughout the route. As said above, an easy release of diesel units (and a transfer of running to GTR/Southern) - would make so much sense. Plus many other benefits.

 

[Mikey C]

The ideological third rail thing is so boring - infill shouldn't be a problem.

The AC programme nationally is so far behind and with so many other gaps, the Southern network must be 50+ years away, if ever.

Two of the country's busiest railways are third rail and run 1000s of trains relatively smoothly. A short branch extension to somewhere most people have never heard of is hardly egregious in the context of the electrification policy. Moronic.

North Downs is even more bitty, with stretches dotted throughout the route. As said above, an easy release of diesel units (and a transfer of running to GTR/Southern) - would make so much sense. Plus many other benefits.

Someone needs to think into the future and realistically decide

will the third rail network be converted to OHLE or not within the next 30-50 years

As that's key to so any infill decisions. It's pointless insisting in only electrifying these small sections with OHLE if the rest of the network won't ever be converted, even if it's more optimal, as it's just creating extra expense and complication that will need to "do nothing" instead.

 

[nomis1066]

Tricky one.

Talking of the BML, the idea that electrification to Uckfield justifies another rehash of reopening a line through the countryside to Lewes… please, not again – we’ve already had threads about SELRAP (Skipton – Colne), the Somerset & Dorset and the line from Tavistock to Okehampton in the past month… could we not spread out the wistful threads about re-opening scenic lines through relatively empty sections of the countryside out a bit?

If we’ve just spent millions extending Uckfield line stations to ten coach trains and passenger demand is keeping up with the supply of new seats then that suggests there’s not going to be a lot of scope for Lewes passengers to get seats too. And that’s before anyone focusses their attention away from the quaint quiet end of “BML2” and starts thinking about how to get beyond Croydon and whether it’s worth finding something north of the Thames for this scheme to connect to. Solution seeks problem, GSOH essential

Not sure there is any need to belittle the worthy efforts of people to fill in gaps in the rail network such as Skipton Colne and Uckfield Lewes. There is rather more to it than "reopening scenic lines through relatively empty sections of the countryside". Uckfield Lewes is now part of the BML2 campaign which is currently beavering away behind the scenes with private finance for the project being sought. Feel free to look at the BML2 site for further info.

Uckfield Lewes reinstatement would see benefits radiate much further than those 7 miles as it would restore a link to Brighton for towns all the way back to Oxted. Brighton - the "Go to" destination on the Sussex coast. And a get out of jail alternative route would also be provided. Brian Hart has dedicated over 30 years battling to get this route put back together - it is now an integral part of the BML2 campaign.

Railways everywhere - indeed roads too - have stretches through "relatively empty sections of the country side" - and so what? It's the links they provide that are what matter. And the Uckfield line should regain it's old status as a Surrey Kent (BML2 includes Eridge to Tunbridge Wells West) and Sussex main line - a bog standard twin track DC railway including those missing 7 miles.

Reopening the Somerset and Dorset? Fanciful of course - but the Lewes Uckfield and Skipton Colne glaring gaps both deserve restoration.

 

[nomis1066]

Is the idea of running HS trains to Hastings still kicking around? With works at Ashford...

It'd still need a shorter service for the local shacks though.

But in theory, 'the regions' need DMUs (good ones at that) - and Uckfield seems a ripe candidate to provide a fair few units. Seems to be 12 x 2 car and 8 x 4 car - pretty decent. Could well serve two diesel routes fully, or just go into the random mix (e.g. for Northern).

Hot air continues to be spouted on this subject. Electrification and restoration to twin track were both mooted as some of the benefits to the East Sussex rail network brought about by privatisation - not one of these benefits has happened.

The Home Secretary - our MP (er, just), to her credit did raise the subject of Marshlink connecting with HS1 at Ashford a few years ago - and giving East Sussex what Kent had from day one of the Javelin service. But all we have really had is people sitting round tables talking lots and doing nothing while the appalling service provided by the 2 car 171s has now got so appalling that it looks as if they will soon be just operating between Hastings and Ashford with cross platform connections from/to Brighton. At least it would confine the over crowding and cut out the ludicrous amount of mileage these diesel units do over 3rd rail!

Hybrid 319s? Or something similar? There has been talk of battery powered Hitachi units for the non electrified Marshlink - but that sends us down the road of route specific rolling stock which shouldn't really be an option when the common sense move is to electrify the route with 3rd rail (as well as Uckfield and the North Downs routes) and restore it to twin track. The Ashford conundrum is the current lack of a connection between Marshlink and HS1. But it's not insurmountable.