Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[crablab]

The risk from fire is far, far greater than individual passengers, especially as many trucks have been driven for 2-3 hours without stopping before they reach the terminal due to the need to comply with UK law.

Then why do we bother with the security theatre for 'foot passengers' on Eurostar, which limits capacity so much at the termini & is one of the limitating factors for destination options?

The Gotthard Base Tunnel doesn't chuck everyone off to x-ray their bags.

 

[RT4038]

Then why do we bother with the security theatre for 'foot passengers' on Eurostar, which limits capacity so much at the termini & is one of the limitating factors for destination options?

The Gotthard Base Tunnel doesn't chuck everyone off to x-ray their bags.

One of the reasons will be that no-one will wish to take responsibility to take that decision. The slightest incident, which could have been prevented by the security checks, will destroy that person/ group of people. There was a knife incident on a Thalys (now E*) train between Brussels and Paris a few years ago as I recall, so I expect the psyche will be to play it safe and not question the security. There is no real impetus to change the status quo.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Then why do we bother with the security theatre for 'foot passengers' on Eurostar, which limits capacity so much at the termini & is one of the limitating factors for destination options?

Good question. I think it's just a legacy of The Troubles, nothing more. If you think back to when the Tunnel opened, the threat from the IRA was clear and present, and it's very hard to remove security controls once they've been introduced.

It's worth pointing out that Tiree, Campbelltown and Barra airports did drop security checks and replaced them with a verbal declaration of not carrying any illegal items, so it's not impossible to remove them.

 

[zwk500]

Then why do we bother with the security theatre for 'foot passengers' on Eurostar, which limits capacity so much at the termini & is one of the limitating factors for destination options?

The Gotthard Base Tunnel doesn't chuck everyone off to x-ray their bags.

The Gotthard Base Tunnel has 2 mid-tunnel rescue stations from which passengers can be evacuated to the service in the event of an emergency. The Channel Tunnel, for rather obvious reasons, can't have these.

 

[RT4038]

Good question. I think it's just a legacy of The Troubles, nothing more. If you think back to when the Tunnel opened, the threat from the IRA was clear and present, and it's very hard to remove security controls once they've been introduced.

It's worth pointing out that Tiree, Campbelltown and Barra airports did drop security checks and replaced them with a verbal declaration of not carrying any illegal items, so it's not impossible to remove them.

Duly noted! When London and Paris have the same demographic and quantity of passengers as Tiree, Campbelltown and Barra currently do, I'm sure the Authorities will consider similar action, should it still be worthwhile running any trains at all of course. In the meantime.....

The Gotthard Base Tunnel has 2 mid-tunnel rescue stations from which passengers can be evacuated to the service in the event of an emergency. The Channel Tunnel, for rather obvious reasons, can't have these.

The Channel Tunnel does have a similar such a thing, evacuation into a service tunnel, but I guess the Authorities would rather try and prevent the circumstances of having to use it.

 

[NCT]

Who owns / mandates the security lanes at St Pancras? Is it Eurostar, Getlink or LSPHS?

 

[zwk500]

The Channel Tunnel does have a similar such a thing, evacuation into a service tunnel, but I guess the Authorities would rather try and prevent the circumstances of having to use it.

The Service tunnel isn't comparable to the GBT's MFS at all, because evacuation from the service tunnel has to be to one portal or another, which are 50km apart. The Gotthard Base Tunnel's MFS divide the Tunnel into sections 28km, 13.5km, and 16km long and evacuate directly to the surface. I'm sure the GBT's operators are as keen to avoid use of the MFS as Getlink are to avoid use of the service tunnel, they just have a completely different evacuation and rescue scenario.

 

[bspahh]

Jon Worth has expanded his blog post into an article for the i Paper.

Trenitalia is Eurostar’s most serious rival yet

Several operators have announced their intent to operate on the high-speed cross-Channel route

inews.co.uk

Jon Worth is on the latest episode of the
More Jam Tomorrow podcast

Episode 1: Channel Tunnel

How did the Channel Tunnel get built? And why has it not quite lived up to its promise?

You can support More Jam Tomorrow at https://ko-fi.com/morejamtomorrow

Show notes

Jon Worth blogs about European rail.

The opening speech is from Shakespeare’s Richard II.

I am grateful to Terry Gourvish, the author of The Official History of the Channel Tunnel (Routledge) for insights into the long process of getting the tunnel built.

How John Bull Lost London is available at the Internet Archive. I also drew on The Churchill Project, BNP Paribas’ Origins of the Channel Tunnel 1957-87, Peter Keeling’s essay at Public Domain Review, material from the National Archives and INA footage from 1975. Politicians’ speeches are from Hansard.

The 1998 Eurostar ad features Antoine de Caunes.

 

[Austriantrain]

One of the reasons will be that no-one will wish to take responsibility to take that decision. The slightest incident, which could have been prevented by the security checks, will destroy that person/ group of people. There was a knife incident on a Thalys (now E*) train between Brussels and Paris a few years ago as I recall, so I expect the psyche will be to play it safe and not question the security. There is no real impetus to change the status quo.

Could you point out since when security checks have been undertaken on the ex-Thalys E* as a result of the knife attack?

Exactly.

 

[crablab]

The Gotthard Base Tunnel has 2 mid-tunnel rescue stations from which passengers can be evacuated to the service in the event of an emergency. The Channel Tunnel, for rather obvious reasons, can't have these.

Sure, but why are foot passengers considered such a high risk relative to vehicles? Just go to spot checking and sniffer dogs if you must, roughly analogous to the regime for cars.

Could you point out since when security checks have been undertaken on the ex-Thalys E* as a result of the knife attack?

I had the impression there are some "secure areas" at various Thalys stations, which I don't think have ever been used.

 

[RT4038]

Could you point out since when security checks have been undertaken on the ex-Thalys E* as a result of the knife attack?

Exactly.

You are making an assumption that this is all rational. Imposing new checks is a different psyche to removing existing ones!

 

[rvdborgt]

I had the impression there are some "secure areas" at various Thalys stations, which I don't think have ever been used.

In Brussels, they sometimes do spot-checks, although I wonder how often that still is. I've run into it only once. They've converted one room close to the Eurostar terminal to be able to do luggage checks there.
In Liège, they've put an ugly container-like box on the eastern overpass that I've never seen used. I wonder what Calatrava would think about it. In Antwerp, I'm not sure if and where they hid the luggage checking equipment. In both Liège and Antwerp, crowd control barriers have been put on some platforms (2/3 in Liège, 21/22 and 23/24 in Antwerp), meant to separate passengers somehow if there are checks, but I've never seen them used and they're basically just an annoyance for passengers.
In Paris Nord, there was some luggage checking equipment installed at the beginning of the Thalys platforms, but I've never seen it used and IIRC it has been removed quietly.
In the Netherlands and Germany, nothing visible to passengers was done.

 

[signed]

Thalys security checks were introduced after the 2015 Thalys terrorist attack, but now the metal detectors at Paris Nord are mostly there for decoration purposes nowadays.

---

Transport security checks are security and political theaters.

You will very rarely see lorries or cars at ferryports get checked because that would be such a massive undertaking, no border in the world can check every vehicle passing through.

It's a lot easier to check people as the infrastructure and the time needed is a lot lower.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Duly noted! When London and Paris have the same demographic and quantity of passengers as Tiree, Campbelltown and Barra currently do, I'm sure the Authorities will consider similar action, should it still be worthwhile running any trains at all of course. In the meantime.....

Of course, it's a completely different scale. But it is an example of security being cut back or eliminated where it was previously thought necessary.

You will very rarely see lorries or cars at ferryports get checked because that would be such a massive undertaking, no border in the world can check every vehicle passing through.

Just a point, but some borders do check every single vehicle coming through. It's the norm on the Polish borders with Ukraine, Belarus and Russia for instance. Lithuania also does very in-depth controls on the Russian border, and Estonia has also started doing very detailed checks.

It's a lot easier to check people as the infrastructure and the time needed is a lot lower.

This is pretty much the exact reason why ferry terminals are doing security checks on passengers while ignoring vehicles.

Sure, but why are foot passengers considered such a high risk relative to vehicles? Just go to spot checking and sniffer dogs if you must, roughly analogous to the regime for cars.

There is absolutely no logical reason for it. The sensible answer would be to do spot checks, or link the check-in machines to security checks. Green light, walk straight through, red light, stop for a security check. You could also have sniffer dogs and spot checks, and it would achieve pretty much the same goal without slowing down 90-95% of passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wouldn't London-Brussels-Luxembourg work by itself?

No. The London - Luxembourg market is tiny - about 10% of Amsterdam. And a decent proportion are connecting at Heathrow.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No. The London - Luxembourg market is tiny - about 10% of Amsterdam. And a decent proportion are connecting at Heathrow.

I expect time would be an issue too. The line from Brussels to Lux City takes ages to traverse. I wonder if the Belgians are looking at a HSL Brussels to Namur, with a branch towards Charleroi.

 

[The Ham]

Coming to the Eurostar network soon; Wixams:

Universal Bedford theme park could get trains from Europe - mayor - BBC News

Tom Wootton hopes station improvements could enable Eurostar trains to be accommodated.

www.bbc.co.uk

Bedford's Conservative mayor Tom Wootton told Bedford Borough Council's executive committee the government had asked for work on nearby Wixams railway station to be paused while proposals for a larger station are considered, adding that this could possibly accommodate trains from abroad.

(Or maybe not)

 

[TheWierdOne]

Coming to the Eurostar network soon; Wixams:

Universal Bedford theme park could get trains from Europe - mayor - BBC News

Tom Wootton hopes station improvements could enable Eurostar trains to be accommodated.

www.bbc.co.uk

(Or maybe not)

I mean it’s not so dumb? Considering Wixams is now going to be next door to a theme park that will give Disneyland a run for their money, I could see a 2-3 train a day service, one each from Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels. Arrive into St Pancras, have a driver at the north end ready to take over and go straight back out onto the MML. I could see universal coughing up the cash for a team of border force officers to be stationed up there if they thought it would up the numbers of big European spenders to a sufficient degree

 

[nwales58]

I wonder if the Belgians are looking at a HSL Brussels to Namur, with a branch towards Charleroi.

Studied and dumped years ago (Eurocap, from memory that included Strasbourg). Belgium's biggest problems are largely capacity.

Upgrading to 25kV and 160 km/h is in progress I believe with a few limited stop shorter journey time trains possible sometime.

 

[Bald Rick]

I mean it’s not so dumb? Considering Wixams is now going to be next door to a theme park that will give Disneyland a run for their money, I could see a 2-3 train a day service, one each from Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels. Arrive into St Pancras, have a driver at the north end ready to take over and go straight back out onto the MML. I could see universal coughing up the cash for a team of border force officers to be stationed up there if they thought it would up the numbers of big European spenders to a sufficient degree

It will not happen. Minor problem is that the trains don’t fit, in any dimension (length, width, height, time).

 

[m0ffy]

It will not happen. Minor problem is that the trains don’t fit, in any dimension (length, width, height, time).

The 373s would probably fit, but I imagine most/all will have taken their final journey by the time it opens.

 

[IanXC]

Well, perhaps a new service could be run initially to Brussels through Luxembourg, non-stop through Metz, onto LGV Est, and then into Strasbourg as a railhead for Germany. You could trial it as a Eurostar Red (Thalys) service from Strasbourg/Lux/Brussels to Lille initially and then the Lille shuffle onto a guaranteed connection into London perhaps.

Thats quite an interesting idea - I don't have any idea how easy it would be to accommodate sterile platforms and so on at Strasbourg?

Wouldn't London-Brussels-Luxembourg work by itself?

Theoretically yes, but I suspect it is very much down to how much subsidy the Luxembourg government would be willing to stump up - which would presumably only arrive if Luxembourg - Brussels journeys could be made on said service without passport controls etc.

 

[signed]

Considering Wixams is now going to be next door to a theme park that will give Disneyland a run for their money

I fail to see the point.

If there was a Eurostar link, why would people in Benelux would choose it when Red runs direct to Disneyland Paris taking half the time, without dealing with border controls, and for probably cheaper...

 

[Bald Rick]

The 373s would probably fit, but I imagine most/all will have taken their final journey by the time it opens.

They wouldn’t in at least two of the dimensions!

 

[stuu]

I fail to see the point.

If there was a Eurostar link, why would people in Benelux would choose it when Red runs direct to Disneyland Paris taking half the time, without dealing with border controls, and for probably cheaper...

Universal resorts are more ride/thrill-based than Disneyland so would attract a different sort of visitor

 

[m0ffy]

They wouldn’t in at least two of the dimensions!

I may not have considered their sheer length! I’m guessing they’re probably also a bit too tall?

 

[Bald Rick]

I may not have considered their sheer length! I’m guessing they’re probably also a bit too tall?

They would probably fit width and height, but not length or time.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Studied and dumped years ago (Eurocap, from memory that included Strasbourg). Belgium's biggest problems are largely capacity.

Upgrading to 25kV and 160 km/h is in progress I believe with a few limited stop shorter journey time trains possible sometime.

That's a shame, the current fastest time is 2hr52 and I don't think that there is much scope with the improvements to reduce it to more than 2hr30.
Sounds like any viable Eurostar Red or Blue route would have to wait.

Thats quite an interesting idea - I don't have any idea how easy it would be to accommodate sterile platforms and so on at Strasbourg?

There is plenty of railway land to the west if you needed to build sterile platforms.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Jon Worth says (video) that Strasbourg could work without any reconstruction (except for building a fence).

Jon Worth (@[email protected])

Today‘s summary. This is important. To my genuine surprise Strasbourg can work for #CrossChannelRail https://peertube.netzbegruenung.de/w/3oWXj87MybJz8RWhoEuLi2

gruene.social

 

[MatthewHutton]

- The biggest one - being outside of Schengen. The issues are two fold. If Amsterdam - London services could freely pick up and drop off passengers at Antwerp, Brussels and Lille we'd probably be looking at an hourly service already

To be fair the train could be split to be an 8+8 train and then one half could do local stops.

I mean it’s not so dumb? Considering Wixams is now going to be next door to a theme park that will give Disneyland a run for their money, I could see a 2-3 train a day service, one each from Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels. Arrive into St Pancras, have a driver at the north end ready to take over and go straight back out onto the MML. I could see universal coughing up the cash for a team of border force officers to be stationed up there if they thought it would up the numbers of big European spenders to a sufficient degree

You’d get the main hourly Eurostar to London and change at St Pancras to the very frequent local trains to Bedford - maybe there should be a mainline station for the Thameslink trains as well.

It’s like Eurostar stopped the direct Disneyland train presumably because people went to Paris and got the RER so it isn’t worth the hassle.