Proposed reopening of Stoke-Leek Line

[A0]

Why? From the Stoke/Crewe direction you do have access to the 2nd most densly populated region the North West, as well as North Wales and Scotland via the WCML. Also if it's not somewhere frequently driven too, many people might be able to see the benefit of a direct train.

I do hope I'm not going to have to take over the entire railway to realise my reopening ambitions!

Because outside London no major attraction is seeing more than 10% of its visitors arriving by rail quite simply. And that's for attractions with established rail links.

And you need to be realistic on the length of journey people will make for a day trip. Euston - Stoke is 90 mins, Glasgow - Crewe is 3 hours - by the time you've done Crewe to Alton Towers that'll be over 4 hrs (Crewe - Stoke is 20+ minutes currently). Nobody's going to do an 8 hour journey for a day trip - you'll spend as long travelling if not more as you will at the attraction. People coming from Scotland to Alton Towers are more likely to drive it and fo a couple of nights in a Premier Inn to get the time in the park.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Google searches (other search engines available) suggest one Bamford or another may have a pound or two that could be invested, allegedly

There is no need for a Google search and there is no need to allege. In the last published accounts they paid £80m in dividends up to the overseas trusts described as 'ultimately controlled by Bamford family interests', with a total of £310m in dividends in the last 5 years. That's ignoring any salaries and directors emoluments. Net worth is in the billions taking The Sunday Times Rich List as a guide.

But why would they splash their personal cash on a railway to serve a venture in which they have no interest? I can't see parts coming in by train nor completed machines being taken away by train. There's a good road from the factory door to the A50 at Uttoxeter, from there the world! The yellow baron will not be commuting by train from Gloucestershire as he has a personal helicopter, with personal 'plates'.

 

[Bald Rick]

That may be beneficial. You would only have to run a couple of trains a day over the heritage tracks.

Building a railway for a couple of trains a day is seen as beneficial?

 

[tbtc]

The trouble with trying to serve Alton Towers with a rail link is that the traffic would be very peaky.

You mean that , over each day, passenger numbers would soar upwards before dropping suddenly, then slowly ratchet back up again to a higher level, with people eagerly anticipating how high they’d get?

On paper I like the idea of a Leek line - it’s from a town of around twenty thousand people into the nearest big city, so feels worthy of looking at in theory (though I don’t know if Stoke necessarily had the range of jobs that re/openings like a Tweedbank/ Ashington/ Portishead etc will have in their nearest big city?)

But I don’t know the local conditions and it’s only take one obstacle (like the JCB HQ) to suddenly push it into the “very unaffordable” (conveniently ignoring the fact that we shouldn’t be reopening any lines whilst we remain unable to run the actual normal long established service to existing stations - finding hundreds of millions of pounds to throw at this project May be debatable but IMHO it’d be Dreadful priorities to focus on it whilst so many gaps remain in the regular daily timetable (e.g. Stoke has lost lots of Avanti services and seen XC significantly cut too

(Obviously anyone is welcome to call me boring for not obsessing about ancient lines, or tell me that I must somehow “hate the railway” just because I’d rather we were at least doing the basics before we start spaffing megabucks on shiny new bits of line)

 

[A0]

Building a railway for a couple of trains a day is seen as beneficial?

I think what the OP is suggesting is the heritage group rebuilds the line to Alton Towers and a national TOC operates a couple of trains a day over it to / from Alton Towers. The issue with that is the linespeed will be limited to 25mph, which since there are already public buses which cover the Alton Towers - Stoke station journey in 55 minutes, which is likely to be quicker than a run over the Churnet Valley.

Add in the CVR lifted the track from Kingsley & Froghall down to Oakamoor a few years back - and I have a feeling there is a utility main (can't remember if it was gas or water) running down the middle of the old track bed, which would need to be moved if they were ever to look at reinstatement.

 

[MarkyT]

The issue with that is the linespeed will be limited to 25mph, which since there are already public buses which cover the Alton Towers - Stoke station journey in 55 minutes, which is likely to be quicker than a run over the Churnet Valley.

Some heritage lines have agreed higher speed limits than the old light railway maximum. The GCR for example is allowed up to 60mph for steam and 75mph for diesel testing or other special purposes, although clearly the normal heritage/tourist service is timed very much more sedately!

Special Services | Great Central Railway – The UK's Only Main Line Heritage Railway

www.gcrailway.co.uk

Special Services
The Great Central Railway is much more than a heritage railway. It is able to provide services to commercial and corporate clients in a variety of areas.
The double track line, approved for running at 60 mph with steam traction and 75 mph for diesel traction, is the ideal venue for vehicle testing and staff training.

On the route in question, it's possible a TOC lightweight MU might be authorised for up to 60mph where the geometry allows it, inter-running with slower heritage service with differential speed limits. Appropriate standards of track maintenance would apply and AWS/TPWS provision would likely be required for safety.

 

[A0]

Some heritage lines have agreed higher speed limits than the old light railway maximum. The GCR for example is allowed up to 60mph for steam and 75mph for diesel testing or other special purposes, although clearly the normal heritage/tourist service is timed very much more sedately!

Special Services | Great Central Railway – The UK's Only Main Line Heritage Railway

www.gcrailway.co.uk

On the route in question, it's possible a TOC lightweight MU might be authorised for up to 60mph where the geometry allows it, inter-running with slower heritage service with differential speed limits. Appropriate standards of track maintenance would apply and AWS/TPWS provision would likely be required for safety.

Bit in bold - all of which would be completely out of reach for a heritage line relying on volunteers. Sorry - that's cloud cuckoo land.

 

[MarkyT]

Bit in bold - all of which would be completely out of reach for a heritage line relying on volunteers. Sorry - that's cloud cuckoo land.

I have no idea about the detailed capabilities of the Churnet Valley Railway engineering teams, volunteer or otherwise, but the GCR manages to support higher speeds for special purposes as described above, so it is possible for independent railways to do this, although the GCR is clearly one of the largest and longstanding such heritage operations in the UK.

 

[zwk500]

I have no idea about the detailed capabilities of the Churnet Valley Railway engineering teams, volunteer or otherwise, but the GCR manages to support higher speeds for special purposes as described above, so it is possible for independent railways to do this, although the GCR is clearly one of the largest and longstanding such heritage operations in the UK.

The GCR has 3 important factors in it's favour for this: 1. It's the only railway with this capability, so gets lots of income from having a 60mph speed limit. 2. It has the ex-mainline formation to build and maintain such track and 3. It was the pet project of a member, IIRC.

 

[lil Bear]

I have no idea about the detailed capabilities of the Churnet Valley Railway engineering teams, volunteer or otherwise, but the GCR manages to support higher speeds for special purposes as described above, so it is possible for independent railways to do this, although the GCR is clearly one of the largest and longstanding such heritage operations in the UK.

GCR are only permitted to run at higher speeds only when closed to the public. Once open to Joe Public, 25mph is the limit for all services (the TPO demos are done under special dispensation, with Quorn crossing gates locked by station staff and station staff on the platform to keep people from the edge. No passengers are conveyed.)

Just Stoke - Leek is insufficient. As part of this they will also need to reopen the branch to Alton Towers to remove car and road journeys to the theme park. One of the railway’s biggest problems is that nowhere near enough places are served, not just that the surviving network isn’t served properly.

Alton Towers is a complete non-starter. First off the trackbed is owned by Staffordshire County Council, who have shown no interest to date in such an opening. The station has been sold off, if the current redundant platform is used then it involves crossing a busy road and a 1-mile walk to the park entrance. If a new station is built closer to the grounds, it will involve scaling a 100ft+ cliff-face. Then there is the added journey time, at roughly 45 mins each way just from Leek - add in Stoke you'r talking nearly 3 hours of travelling just to get in the park & back - and that's after travelling to/from your joining station! Alton Towers have no incentive thmesleves as they currently charge £5/car/day; why would they discourage income? We're also forgetting how anti-outsiders the locals are, any form of redevelopment is rejected and they've made it quite clear on numerous occasions they do not want a railway returning the area to Smokey Oaky (though they've clearly forgotten it was the factory that gave it that nickname...).

Stoke to Leek wont sell on its own, but it would work as an extension of a Manc Airport > Stoke, Llandudno > Stoke etc. Bringing people in from further afield and connecting Leek to outside places (not just Stoke). Whether it can be justified in the current climate I'm not sure, though the game changer would be if HS2 go looking for a more local ballast supplier...

 

[507020]

GCR are only permitted to run at higher speeds only when closed to the public. Once open to Joe Public, 25mph is the limit for all services (the TPO demos are done under special dispensation, with Quorn crossing gates locked by station staff and station staff on the platform to keep people from the edge. No passengers are conveyed.)

The GCR is of course the only preserved main line railway, not merely some sort of branch line. By nature of the original engineering work when the line was built, much more recently than any surviving main lines I might add, the alignment can take a lot more than 25mph. Some of it might still be the fastest alignment we’ve got.

Alton Towers is a complete non-starter. First off the trackbed is owned by Staffordshire County Council, who have shown no interest to date in such an opening. The station has been sold off, if the current redundant platform is used then it involves crossing a busy road and a 1-mile walk to the park entrance. If a new station is built closer to the grounds, it will involve scaling a 100ft+ cliff-face. Then there is the added journey time, at roughly 45 mins each way just from Leek - add in Stoke you'r talking nearly 3 hours of travelling just to get in the park & back - and that's after travelling to/from your joining station! Alton Towers have no incentive thmesleves as they currently charge £5/car/day; why would they discourage income? We're also forgetting how anti-outsiders the locals are, any form of redevelopment is rejected and they've made it quite clear on numerous occasions they do not want a railway returning the area to Smokey Oaky (though they've clearly forgotten it was the factory that gave it that nickname...).

Stoke to Leek wont sell on its own, but it would work as an extension of a Manc Airport > Stoke, Llandudno > Stoke etc. Bringing people in from further afield and connecting Leek to outside places (not just Stoke). Whether it can be justified in the current climate I'm not sure, though the game changer would be if HS2 go looking for a more local ballast supplier...

Why does Staffordshire, or indeed any county council own any disused railway trackbed if they have no intention of the line reopening? Obviously you would build a new entrance to the theme park immediately adjacent to the station, geared towards people arriving by rail and not by road. Nothing says visitors would actually have to scale a cliff face of any height by hand.

This loss of artificialised income from car parking in favour of subsidising genuinely sustainable rail transport is incredibly problematic and certainly not confined to Alton Towers. The total cost to the railway of Diesel to convey all visitors on fully loaded trains must be dwarfed when compared to the cost borne by all individuals for petrol or Diesel to convey themselves individually by road. How far do people have to walk from the car park and would the locals be opposed to this huge slab of concrete being closed and redeveloped as a green space?

There is a need (and capacity) for more trains to run to Manchester Airport from the south, but do you propose Stoke - Leek to be electrified, or for Diesels to run under the wires all the way from Stoke to Manchester Airport? Llandudno is less of an issue due to the lack of electrification from Crewe onwards.

 

[lil Bear]

The GCR is of course the only preserved main line railway, not merely some sort of branch line. By nature of the original engineering work when the line was built, much more recently than any surviving main lines I might add, the alignment can take a lot more than 25mph. Some of it might still be the fastest alignment we’ve got.

Churnet Valley was a double-track, 60mph mainline back in the day. In fact many of our heritage railways were built as more than light railways originally, GWSR / NYMR to name just two. GCR might be the only double-track preserved line, that is simply beacaue there was the will and determination to create such back in the 90s.

Why does Staffordshire, or indeed any county council own any disused railway trackbed if they have no intention of the line reopening? Obviously you would build a new entrance to the theme park immediately adjacent to the station, geared towards people arriving by rail and not by road. Nothing says visitors would actually have to scale a cliff face of any height by hand.

It's currently set up as permissive footpath, used extensively by walkers, dog-walkers, horse riders and cyclists. Not all railway trackbeds need to be re-opened. Not only have you got issues at Alton, but at Oakamoor there is the bridge over the River Churnet at Oakamoor that will need significant repair, Oakamoor tunnel is now a protected bat habitat (and you can't just smoke them out), a new level crossing requires installation the other side and at Oakamoor station itself the old access road bridge was demolished and the road diverted onto the former trackbed so this will need replacing. As for the park entrance, if it was that easy it would of been done by now, but it hasn't as how do you scale such a cliff-face - especially in the days of access for all?

There is a need (and capacity) for more trains to run to Manchester Airport from the south, but do you propose Stoke - Leek to be electrified, or for Diesels to run under the wires all the way from Stoke to Manchester Airport? Llandudno is less of an issue due to the lack of electrification from Crewe onwards.

They haven't got the money to open Stoke to Leek as it is, let alone upgrade for electric! However that is a complete non-starter as well, as the Council can only actually re-open Stoke to Leek Brook Junction (SCQ1 and SCQ2). LBJ to Leek is under a 150-year lease to CVR, and whilst they are obliged to grant access to any mainline connection I can never see OLE being approved onto a heritage operation.

 

[matacaster]

The Churnet Valley Railway stops short of Alton Towers at Oakamoor going south and would have difficulty going further north through Leek thanks to that supermarket. Reopening further south to Uttoxeter would run into a substantial obstacle at Rocester where it would need to go through JCB's International HQ.

History of that line at; https://www.churnetvalleyrailway.co.uk/lmsbr

At least sourcing suitable excavators shouldn't be difficult at Rocester.

 

[Glenn1969]

My view is still that there is zero chance of this or any other new build RYR scheme being funded. Especially in the current financial climate