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Proposed timetable for Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn service

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frodshamfella

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The service is governed more than anything by the service between Liverpool South Parkway (and Halton Jn) and Lime Street which is a very busy bit of railway. Once you have those paths sorted then you have to ensure it all fits in with the service between Frodsham Jn and Chester. The single line on the Halton Curve could also cause issues.......

is that that busy ? 1 train per hour to London, 2 to Birmingham a Norwich and a Manchester Airport service ( 2 maybe?)....is that about it ?.was there not a time when there were more destinations served directly out of Liverpool, I do remember a direct Cardiff service via Runcorn for example.
 
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AndyW33

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is that that busy ? 1 train per hour to London, 2 to Birmingham a Norwich and a Manchester Airport service ( 2 maybe?)....is that about it ?.was there not a time when there were more destinations served directly out of Liverpool, I do remember a direct Cardiff service via Runcorn for example.
The section of route between Edge Hill and South Parkway is mostly four-track with two intermediate stations at Mossley Hill and at West Allerton. Trains taking the CLC route through Warrington Central use it as well as those heading through Runcorn. The CLC line has (on the standard timetable), two stoppers per hour to Manchester Oxford Road, one fast to Manchester Airport, and the Norwich. The Runcorn line has the one London and two Birminghams per hour you mention. In the early morning there are extra trains to London, and equivalent early evening trains from London, both serving Liverpool demand and getting the stock from and to Edge Hill Depot for overnight servicing. The line is also the main access route for trains to/from Allerton Depot and before and after the peaks is busy with ECS workings between Allerton and Lime Street.
 

nedchester

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The section of route between Edge Hill and South Parkway is mostly four-track with two intermediate stations at Mossley Hill and at West Allerton. Trains taking the CLC route through Warrington Central use it as well as those heading through Runcorn. The CLC line has (on the standard timetable), two stoppers per hour to Manchester Oxford Road, one fast to Manchester Airport, and the Norwich. The Runcorn line has the one London and two Birminghams per hour you mention. In the early morning there are extra trains to London, and equivalent early evening trains from London, both serving Liverpool demand and getting the stock from and to Edge Hill Depot for overnight servicing. The line is also the main access route for trains to/from Allerton Depot and before and after the peaks is busy with ECS workings between Allerton and Lime Street.

Exactly, and that therefore reduces the available paths. You then have to use those paths to shoehorn them into the service between Fordsham Jn and Chester (and from 2022 onto Cardiff)
 

frodshamfella

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So if this is a big problem, what can be done ? How can Liverpool connectivity be improved, particularly thinking of Wales, which has been non existent for too long ? I understand there is space available to double the Halton Curve, but its seems the Liverpool end is a problem more so.
 

nedchester

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So if this is a big problem, what can be done ? How can Liverpool connectivity be improved, particularly thinking of Wales, which has been non existent for too long ? I understand there is space available to double the Halton Curve, but its seems the Liverpool end is a problem more so.

Use more modern units than class 150s which have a higher top speed and better acceleration, get rid of the AB sections between Mickle Trafford and Frodsham Jn & double the Halton Curve would improve things.
 

Ianno87

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Use more modern units than class 150s which have a higher top speed and better acceleration, get rid of the AB sections between Mickle Trafford and Frodsham Jn & double the Halton Curve would improve things.

If you were really getting the Crayons out (and spending big money)to sort the Liverpool end....

Esentially remodel the whole South Parkway area so that the flat junction with the CLC route was effectively removed:
-The Fast Lines from Ditton run onto the current Slow Lines (upgraded) from South Parkway to Wavertree Jn
-Then provide some whizzy flyover in the Wavertree/Edge Hill area to prove grade separation from the current Up Fast out of Lime Street onto the current Up Slow towards Mossley Hil (i.e. grade separate the 2-to-4 track transition at Wavertree)

Alternatively, if Northern Powerhouse Rail ends up providing a new alignment into central Liverpool, has the benefit of freeing up capacity on this section with zero further infrastructure spend.
 

Llandudno

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If you were really getting the Crayons out (and spending big money)to sort the Liverpool end....

Esentially remodel the whole South Parkway area so that the flat junction with the CLC route was effectively removed:
-The Fast Lines from Ditton run onto the current Slow Lines (upgraded) from South Parkway to Wavertree Jn
-Then provide some whizzy flyover in the Wavertree/Edge Hill area to prove grade separation from the current Up Fast out of Lime Street onto the current Up Slow towards Mossley Hil (i.e. grade separate the 2-to-4 track transition at Wavertree)

Alternatively, if Northern Powerhouse Rail ends up providing a new alignment into central Liverpool, has the benefit of freeing up capacity on this section with zero further infrastructure spend.
If you were really getting the Crayons out (and spending big money)to sort the Liverpool end....

Esentially remodel the whole South Parkway area so that the flat junction with the CLC route was effectively removed:
-The Fast Lines from Ditton run onto the current Slow Lines (upgraded) from South Parkway to Wavertree Jn
-Then provide some whizzy flyover in the Wavertree/Edge Hill area to prove grade separation from the current Up Fast out of Lime Street onto the current Up Slow towards Mossley Hil (i.e. grade separate the 2-to-4 track transition at Wavertree)

Alternatively, if Northern Powerhouse Rail ends up providing a new alignment into central Liverpool, has the benefit of freeing up capacity on this section with zero further infrastructure spend.


Sadly, none of these improvements will happen, of course, they are North of Watford.
Even Manchester Piccadilly Platform 15/16 is unlikely to happen!

In fairness an hourly Liverpool to Chester via the Halton Curve operated by at least 4 coaches with extensions to Llandudno and Shrewsbury (plus some Cardiff extensions) should be sufficient, but perhaps with an earlier first and later last train.
Does anyone if this service will operate on Sundays and provide Llandudno with an all year round Sunday service!
 

Rhydgaled

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I find it amazing this service isn't running to North Wales from the beginning, really not tapping into its potential.
I'm guessing there isn't enough trains
Which is another thing which is baffling to me and I'd say most of the travelling public !
Well, unless you top & tail with locomotives (too expensive) or use a 37 with a DBSO on the other end as in Cumbria (too unreliable if the thread about that is anything to go by) or convert 68s/67s/DVTs/DBSOs to provide diesel push-pull trains (probably also too expensive) then it is probably true that there is nothing the W&B franchise could use. There are probably EMUs sat in sidings waiting for a TOC to lease them, but unless somebody manages to get Network Rail's High-Output OHLE Production train working as originally advertised (getting on for a mile or more a night wasn't it?) there won't be anywhere they can be used to release DMUs for the Halton curve service.

Deferring the new Chester-Liverpool service straight after the launch of the new franchise will be politically unacceptable, I'm sure.
Oh dear. Better hope those 769s appear by December then. Otherwise somewhere else in the W&B franchise area will probably start seeing regular cancellations; there are already regular short-forms between Shrewsbury and Birmingham (4-car vice 6-car on the one or two services that were booked 6-car) as a result of PRM work and installation of retention toilets on the 158s I believe.
 

frodshamfella

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Use more modern units than class 150s which have a higher top speed and better acceleration, get rid of the AB sections between Mickle Trafford and Frodsham Jn & double the Halton Curve would improve things.

is a bit of a shame they didn't just do that while they had the kit all there. I would have like to have seen a simple station added for Beechwood Runcorn on the curve too.
 

frodshamfella

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Sadly, none of these improvements will happen, of course, they are North of Watford.
Even Manchester Piccadilly Platform 15/16 is unlikely to happen!

In fairness an hourly Liverpool to Chester via the Halton Curve operated by at least 4 coaches with extensions to Llandudno and Shrewsbury (plus some Cardiff extensions) should be sufficient, but perhaps with an earlier first and later last train.
Does anyone if this service will operate on Sundays and provide Llandudno with an all year round Sunday service!

That would be nice.
 

Parallel

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Are ATW/W&B due to get any 153s by December? If so, then I’d get them straight away on the city line between Radyr and Coryton, and free up 3 x pacers that (I believe) are currently working three of the four diagrams on the route. The pacers can then displace 150 units from Swanline/valleys/Cheltenham to Maesteg and then the released 3x150s can be based on Chester to Liverpool services. Yes, it will be a squeeze in the South but 153s have regularly been covering on Swanline, HoW and Cheltenham-Maesteg anyway.
 

Rhydgaled

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Are ATW/W&B due to get any 153s by December?
The additional 153s for W&B are not due until May 2019 if I recall correctly; hence my comments above that the 769s had better arrive soon. I think there are 5 class 156s due off-lease from ScotRail in December that currently have no home to go to, so in theroy the W&B franchise could take them on to cover for the late arrival of 769s, but as 156s don't form part of the medium-term plan I fear that is unlikely. Unless the 156s are owned by the same ROSCO as the 769s in which case maybe the 156s would be offered without additional leasing costs due to the late 769s?
 

Bevan Price

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The business case was based on 4 car 150s being used but I bet they'll be 2 car initially. Passengers at Runcorn will probably look surprised if a 2 car unit turns up on a Liverpool service - they are used to 350s and 390s.

2 coaches will be more than adequate for the first few years -- it takes a long time to build up passenger levels on a route that has seen (almost) no passenger trains for over 50 years. Even a single 153 could probably suffice for a year or two....
 

northwichcat

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2 coaches will be more than adequate for the first few years -- it takes a long time to build up passenger levels on a route that has seen (almost) no passenger trains for over 50 years. Even a single 153 could probably suffice for a year or two....

Question will be how many of the existing ATW/LNWR/Northern passengers will end up using the new service to make the same journeys at different times?
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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Question will be how many of the existing ATW/LNWR/Northern passengers will end up using the new service to make the same journeys at different times?

I will certainly make use of the new service. I loath the Merseyrail service, even though the journey time will be similar it will probably feel quicker due to it not making 16 stops like the merseyrail does, so less constant movement of passengers up and down and train stop / starting every 3 minutes, it makes for a stressful journey as you don't feel you can ever relax.

Where as the limited stop via the halton curve on a train with tables and decent seats will make for a much more relaxing journey.
 

northwichcat

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I will certainly make use of the new service. I loath the Merseyrail service, even though the journey time will be similar it will probably feel quicker due to it not making 16 stops like the merseyrail does, so less constant movement of passengers up and down and train stop / starting every 3 minutes, it makes for a stressful journey as you don't feel you can ever relax.

Where as the limited stop via the halton curve on a train with tables and decent seats will make for a much more relaxing journey.

I agree the stop-start journeys on Merseyrail are off putting. However, any journeys I'll be making to Liverpool won't start at Chester so I'd have to consider connections, permitted routes and whether James Street is more convenient for where I am heading than Lime Street.

There does seem to be a lot of passengers changing between North Wales and Merseyrail services at Chester so when the service is extended I expect it will be very well used.
 

nedchester

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2 coaches will be more than adequate for the first few years -- it takes a long time to build up passenger levels on a route that has seen (almost) no passenger trains for over 50 years. Even a single 153 could probably suffice for a year or two....

I suspect the service could be more popular than you think mainly due to the toll fee over the Mersey crossing(s) for Helsby/Frodsham to Liverpool South Parkway / Lime St and Chester to Liverpool South Parkway (for the airport)
 

frodshamfella

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I will certainly make use of the new service. I loath the Merseyrail service, even though the journey time will be similar it will probably feel quicker due to it not making 16 stops like the merseyrail does, so less constant movement of passengers up and down and train stop / starting every 3 minutes, it makes for a stressful journey as you don't feel you can ever relax.

Where as the limited stop via the halton curve on a train with tables and decent seats will make for a much more relaxing journey.

I will use it for sure. It will be very handy for the airport too, so deffo use it for that.
 

frodshamfella

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I agree the stop-start journeys on Merseyrail are off putting. However, any journeys I'll be making to Liverpool won't start at Chester so I'd have to consider connections, permitted routes and whether James Street is more convenient for where I am heading than Lime Street.

There does seem to be a lot of passengers changing between North Wales and Merseyrail services at Chester so when the service is extended I expect it will be very well used.

I'm sure it will, will be so much better for passengers coming from North Wales.
 

Ianno87

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Question will be how many of the existing ATW/LNWR/Northern passengers will end up using the new service to make the same journeys at different times?

How connections work out at Chester will be a big driver of usage for onward journeys to/from North Wales.
 

krus_aragon

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How connections work out at Chester will be a big driver of usage for onward journeys to/from North Wales.
With the current timetable there's a ~25 minute connection heading eastbound off the ex-Llandudno service, whereas the Holyheads are too late, or don't give a valid connection. Westbound there's a ~15 minute connection for the Holyhead service, or ~50 for the Llandudno. Connections for Wrexham are ~10 minutes southbound and 55 northbound. Obviously these issues will disappear when the through services are introduced in a few years' time.
 

cle

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It's a little slow, but best to begin and then tighten it up once operational. Also if extended, the final station bull**** allocation would be shifted along to North Wales and Chester might be driven to more aggressively! A second train per hour, which could run fast from LSP to Chester (Runcorn up for debate) could be the one which heads to Cardiff or Holyhead (alternating) - with the slower service hitting Llandudno, Wrexham or terminating at Chester if too duplicative.
 

Llandudno

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I don’t think it will take too long for the Halton Curve service to catch on.
Yes, it will feel quicker than Merseyrail and a better quality of train (just!) with toilets.
It is not just for journeys to Liverpool and the Airport, but flows to Chester from South Liverpool stations and Runcorn will be significant.
Obviously, Helsby and Frodsham will benefit with direct services to Liverpool, but passengers from these stations may use this service to Chester in preference to the often overcrowded Manchester to Llandudno train.
Then there is Chester Races....!
 

krus_aragon

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A second train per hour, which could run fast from LSP to Chester (Runcorn up for debate) could be the one which heads to Cardiff or Holyhead (alternating) - with the slower service hitting Llandudno, Wrexham or terminating at Chester if too duplicative.
The recently declassified ITT for the new franchise revealed that the DfT will only allow 1tph of "cross-border" services between Chester and Lime St in the W&B franchise.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The recently declassified ITT for the new franchise revealed that the DfT will only allow 1tph of "cross-border" services between Chester and Lime St in the W&B franchise.

Arguably, the Lime St-Chester local is not technically a new path out of Lime St, as it reuses the path that the Blackpool-Lime St-Parkway service used until the Parkway leg was removed last December.
 

cle

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Wouldn’t Liverpool be the only congested part hand the curve) in regards to pathing? Surely if those could be solved, then operators are free to add their own services above the stipulated minimum? It’s just that they rarely do - but this could be interesting.

If the Chester - Leeds arrived just before a South Wales service, Chester could be a second tph for Manchester and a good connection from Huddersfield and Leeds to Cardiff. All should run pretty fast. Thinking Newport, Hereford and Shrewsbury only, and then Wrexham, Chester.
 

frodshamfella

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I'm still shocked that its going to be an age before you can get from Liverpool to North Wales directly still, ridiculous situation.
 

frodshamfella

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When does anyone think the fares will be advertised , I'd be interested in seeing how they compare from Acton Bridge to Liverpool , which is pricey for 30 mins. The frequency from Frodsham will be better however.
 

Arriva 175

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Fares wont be advertised until 2019 at the earliest. Transport for Wales have officially now said its delayed until at least May 2019 due to lack of rolling stock and posted on Keolis Amey thread in UK Railway Discussion. Its no surprise really as ATW are like other TOCs severely short of DMUs. Extra services are out of the question until its sorted.
 
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