Public perception of railways

[43096]

I'm sure taxpayers fund plenty of services that they don't use themselves. I've been in hospital once in the last ten years - should I feel aggrieved at my taxes and NI funding the NHS?

No because you never know when you might need the service. It's a safety net.

 

[43096]

The Euros really challenged those who vaunt European rail systems as DB continued to mess up in front of very vocal football fans.

Although it should be pointed out that Scotland's fans were asking the question "Are you ScotRail in disguise?"...

 

[Meerkat]

Rail travellers aren't a minority.

Regular ones are.

I'm sure taxpayers fund plenty of services that they don't use themselves. I've been in hospital once in the last ten years - should I feel aggrieved at my taxes and NI funding the NHS?

It’s state provided health insurance - you do use it.
But good to mention the NHS - we can’t convince people to pay enough tax to fund the NHS so do you reckon they are willing to pay more to make someone else’s leisure travel cheaper? Or subsidise long distance commuting so high earners can live in nicer places?
Some rail investment benefits everyone, not at all convinced further blanket subsidy of fares (via “simplification” downward) does.

 

[12LDA28C]

It’s state provided health insurance - you do use it.

As I said, I've used it once in ten years, much like someone might make one rail journey in ten years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2024 ==

But good to mention the NHS - we can’t convince people to pay enough tax to fund the NHS so do you reckon they are willing to pay more to make someone else’s leisure travel cheaper? Or subsidise long distance commuting so high earners can live in nicer places?

The NHS is not underfunded. Hugely inefficient and profligate in certain departments but not short of money. HS2 could be paid for in full for the amount that is spent on the NHS every single year.

 

[yorksrob]

Regular ones are.

It’s state provided health insurance - you do use it.
But good to mention the NHS - we can’t convince people to pay enough tax to fund the NHS so do you reckon they are willing to pay more to make someone else’s leisure travel cheaper? Or subsidise long distance commuting so high earners can live in nicer places?
Some rail investment benefits everyone, not at all convinced further blanket subsidy of fares (via “simplification” downward) does.

I'm not a "regular" user of my local hospital, however I still approve of it being there.

 

[Llanigraham]

Rail travellers aren't a minority.

Are you sure?
They may not be in the urban, commuting situation, but for long distance travel I would suggest they are.
If it was that popular why aren't every train down the Devon and Cornwall, or other tourist centres, full all the time?

 

[Meole]

I'm not a "regular" user of my local hospital, however I still approve of it being there.

Alternative is paying health insurance yourself or your employer, some American friends on self employed contracts get excellent treatment when required paying £2400 per month each.

 

[Falcon1200]

If a train is five hours late? Nothing. You may get Delay Repay but that depends on the TOC- not all TOCs are subject to Delay Repay.

Where Delay Repay is applicable, it is paid regardless of whether the delay is the fault of the railway or not.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Among friends and neighbours here in west Oxford there's virtually no perception of the important role of the railway in conveying vast volumes of deep-sea containers from/to Southampton, plus aggregates, automotive, industrial minerals, defence traffic (occasionally), scrap and infrastructure materials. When I tell them that on a typical weekday we can expect to see up to 48 freight trains through Oxford they think I'm overstating the significance of rail freight in keeping traffic off the notoriously-congested A34.

 

[yorksrob]

Alternative is paying health insurance yourself or your employer, some American friends on self employed contracts get excellent treatment when required paying £2400 per month each.

Quite.

It's not an alternative I and most people would choose.

Just as not having fit for purpose public transport, is not an alternative most people would choose.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Just as not having fit for purpose public transport, is not an alternative most people would choose.

Well, we seem to have a NOT fit for purpose public transport system since 1945 at least. The British Transport Commission was established (with no real funding) with a statutory duty to develop an integrated system of public transport and look how that ended up.

How did this situation arise and have most of ‘the people’ ever expressed a coherent wish for such a system?

 

[yorksrob]

Well, we seem to have a NOT fit for purpose public transport system since 1945 at least. The British Transport Commission was established (with no real funding) with a statutory duty to develop an integrated system of public transport and look how that ended up.

How did this situation arise and have most of ‘the people’ ever expressed a coherent wish for such a system?

Are you so sure that it was "fit for purpose" before 1945 ?

It's difficult for people to express a view politically when transport is thrown in with everything else.

People don't seem to want deteriorating public transport. When a Government instituted a policy of dismantling public transport in the early 1960's, it was removed at the 1964 general election in favour of a Government that had promised to review that policy. Yes, that Government roundly failed in its word, however the electorate of the time can't be blamed for that.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well, we seem to have a NOT fit for purpose public transport system since 1945 at least. The British Transport Commission was established (with no real funding) with a statutory duty to develop an integrated system of public transport and look how that ended up.

How did this situation arise and have most of ‘the people’ ever expressed a coherent wish for such a system?

I'd be interested to hear about your experience of the public transport system pre-1945. What were the good and bad points and what could be applied to things today?

 

[Master29]

I don't think the railways are seen as 'uncool' any more than any other form of transport. There's nothing 'cool' about Ryanair. There's nothing 'cool' about the M25.

The reputation is about competence. The railway's reputation in Germany is pretty much rock bottom for the same reason its reputation in GB is pretty much rock bottom: incompetence.

I never said Railways were perceived as anymore uncool than other forms of transport just public transport in general. The two points you make are very good comparisons.

 

[Broucek]

It’s state provided health insurance - you do use it.
But good to mention the NHS - we can’t convince people to pay enough tax to fund the NHS so do you reckon they are willing to pay more to make someone else’s leisure travel cheaper? Or subsidise long distance commuting so high earners can live in nicer places?
Some rail investment benefits everyone, not at all convinced further blanket subsidy of fares (via “simplification” downward) does.

Yes, NHS and rail is a false equivalence. When you suddenly need the NHS then you REALLY need it

 

[yorksrob]

Among friends and neighbours here in west Oxford there's virtually no perception of the important role of the railway in conveying vast volumes of deep-sea containers from/to Southampton, plus aggregates, automotive, industrial minerals, defence traffic (occasionally), scrap and infrastructure materials. When I tell them that on a typical weekday we can expect to see up to 48 freight trains through Oxford they think I'm overstating the significance of rail freight in keeping traffic off the notoriously-congested A34.

Indeed. They'd soon notice if all of those trucks suddenly turned up on their roads !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2024 ==

It’s state provided health insurance - you do use it.
But good to mention the NHS - we can’t convince people to pay enough tax to fund the NHS so do you reckon they are willing to pay more to make someone else’s leisure travel cheaper? Or subsidise long distance commuting so high earners can live in nicer places?
Some rail investment benefits everyone, not at all convinced further blanket subsidy of fares (via “simplification” downward) does.

You say that we can't convince people to pay enough tax to fund healthcare. Is this not the same issue ? People are less amenable to paying for something they're not using there and then, but appreciate it when they actually need it.

 

[irish_rail]

Are you sure?
They may not be in the urban, commuting situation, but for long distance travel I would suggest they are.
If it was that popular why aren't every train down the Devon and Cornwall, or other tourist centres, full all the time?

Because tourists only want to travel at certain times of day. And if you've travelled to the south west lately you'll have noticed just how busy the trains are at certain times of day. Indeed relief trains ran today with half term approaching, full marks to GWR for this.

 

[Meerkat]

The NHS is not underfunded. Hugely inefficient and profligate in certain departments but not short of money.

I think that’s how many people view the railway, and HS2 and Crossrail have rather proved it!
I haven’t seen a decent argument why the taxpayer should waste money on a fares simplification with no losers yet.
There are parts of the railway that deserve subsidy, a blanket fares subsidy is not one of them.
If subsidy of rail services was so popular then rail folk wouldn’t need to be so keen on price gouging popular lines to hide the subsidy on the basket cases.

 

[Horizon22]

The ‘distressed’ customer with no Trainline account or whatever walks into the Euston booking office all flustered and says, “I need to get to Manchester as soon as possible and I’m not sure when I’ll be coming back.” “Certainly, Sir/Madam, that will be £369 please. There’s a train leaving in 7 minutes.”

There are however very few industries where if you need something quickly/urgently where it's going to be cheap, even if it could be cheaper. Booking a flight in a similar way certainly won't be.

The "distressed" customer is probably in today's world going to search "Ticket to X" on their phone and possibly even buy it there (they might not even know they have to go to Euston).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Are you so sure that it was "fit for purpose" before 1945 ?

It's difficult for people to express a view politically when transport is thrown in with everything else.

People don't seem to want deteriorating public transport. When a Government instituted a policy of dismantling public transport in the early 1960's, it was removed at the 1964 general election in favour of a Government that had promised to review that policy. Yes, that Government roundly failed in its word, however the electorate of the time can't be blamed for that.

Fair comment.

Ironic that Labour got fewer votes in 1964 than it did when it lost spectacularly in 1959 despite the population have grown by over 1,500,000 in the meantime! (Off Thread really.)

I'd be interested to hear about your experience of the public transport system pre-1945. What were the good and bad points and what could be applied to things today?

Both:
I'm not aware that the concept of a (national, multi-mode, integrated) public transport system really existed in the UK prior to 1945, at which point the Labour Party started to talk about such a thing explicitly and developed an Act and organisation to deliver it. Anyway, I wasn't around. Sorry.

The "distressed" customer is probably in today's world going to search "Ticket to X" on their phone and possibly even buy it there (they might not even know they have to go to Euston).

Well, if you search, as a novice, for something like 'Open Return Train Ticket London to Manchester Now' you get buried in screen after screen of links offering other tickets (e.g. singles in a few days time for as little as £14.90 or whatever) THAT ARE NO USE WHATSOEVER to the journey in hand. So quite easy to say, "blow it, I'll buy one from the booking office when I get to Euston". Somebody MUST get to find the £369 fare otherwise it wouldn't get quoted.

 

[Horizon22]

Well, if you search, as a novice, for something like 'Open Return Train Ticket London to Manchester Now' you get buried in screen after screen of links offering other tickets (e.g. singles in a few days time for as little as £14.90 or whatever) THAT ARE NO USE WHATSOEVER to the journey in hand. So quite easy to say, "blow it, I'll buy one from the booking office when I get to Euston". Somebody MUST get to find the £369 fare otherwise it wouldn't get quoted.

A novice wouldn't even know what an "open return" means.

I put in "Ticket to Manchester" and I get Avanti and Trainline come up first and it defaults to today in 1hr on their journey planner with 2 clicks and I'd have to try hard to not be sold an Advance.

People are finding these fares and posting on them social media and being deliberately deceptive/cryptic about what that £369 quoted price is a ticket for.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Well, I’ve just tried “Ticket to Manchester”, got to Avanti, tapped through but it had already forgotten that I’m going to Manchester. Told it Manchester from London. Then filled out Open Return upon which the screen froze and I had to quit!
So (notionally) I gave up and got a taxi to Euston and headed straight to the booking office. Avanti’s website clearly can’t be trusted. See what I mean?

 

[Bikeman78]

I don't think the railways are seen as 'uncool' any more than any other form of transport. There's nothing 'cool' about Ryanair. There's nothing 'cool' about the M25.

The reputation is about competence. The railway's reputation in Germany is pretty much rock bottom for the same reason its reputation in GB is pretty much rock bottom: incompetence.

In the UK, it varies a lot from TOC to TOC. I have always held Greater Anglia in high regard. I don't think they have ever cancelled a train I have intended to travel on through lack of train crew. Until recently, I have considered GWR to be good but they have been shocking in the past year. GTR has always been rather average. Despite the timings being the same or slacker than the slam door units, minor delays are the norm. The current timetable just doesn't seem to flow. Lots of trains have pathing time so, even when nothing is going wrong, it seems slow.

 

[dk1]

In the UK, it varies a lot from TOC to TOC. I have always held Greater Anglia in high regard. I don't think they have ever cancelled a train I have intended to travel on through lack of train crew. Until recently, I have considered GWR to be good but they have been shocking in the past year. GTR has always been rather average. Despite the timings being the same or slacker than the slam door units, minor delays are the norm. The current timetable just doesn't seem to flow. Lots of trains have pathing time so, even when nothing is going wrong, it seems slow.

Cancelling trains due to lack of staff is not something we do at GA. We tend to have a plethora of traincrew as continued recruiting and training throughout the pandemic unlike many lame operators and have continued vigorously doing so ever since.

 

[778]

So how come I enjoy travelling by train in Switzerland, Austria etc?.

Because you are a railway enthusiast?

 

[Krokodil]

I'm not aware that the concept of a (national, multi-mode, integrated) public transport system really existed in the UK prior to 1945

Well the Big Four did run some of their own buses and air services (the continued existence of branch lines meant that connecting buses were less critical than they are today. Through ticketing across the country was much simpler in those days too, and prices were properly regulated. It wasn't Switzerland but it was certainly more integrated than the days of bus deregulation when bus companies were prohibited from any kind of cooperation with the railway (or each other) as that was considered "anti-competitive". London of course has had some kind of integration since 1933.

Well, if you search, as a novice, for something like 'Open Return Train Ticket London to Manchester Now' you get buried in screen after screen of links offering other tickets (e.g. singles in a few days time for as little as £14.90 or whatever) THAT ARE NO USE WHATSOEVER to the journey in hand. So quite easy to say, "blow it, I'll buy one from the booking office when I get to Euston". Somebody MUST get to find the £369 fare otherwise it wouldn't get quoted.

Worse, if you look for an return ticket from London to York you will just be told that such tickets don't exist. Trainline tells me that I'll just have to tell it when I intend to return - what if I don't know?

Cancelling trains due to lack of staff is not something we do at GA. We tend to have a plethora of traincrew as continued recruiting and training throughout the pandemic unlike many lame operators and have continued vigorously doing so ever since.

Which probably contributed towards GA having the best financial performance of any of the TOCs. It's almost as if running things into the ground doesn't work, Mr Shapps!

Because you are a railway enthusiast?

You don't need to be a railway enthusiast to find train travel in Switzerland to be a comfortable and pleasant experience.

 

[Falcon1200]

When a Government instituted a policy of dismantling public transport in the early 1960's

Was that policy not driven as much by more people being able to afford cars and therefore deserting public transport? Growing up in the 60s my family went on holiday by train (and yes, we were delayed sometimes as well!), but after finally being able to afford a (used) car around 1970..... we never went on holiday by train again. Not because of any Government policy, simply because the car was far more flexible and, for a family of 5, cheaper.

 

[Robertj21a]

One tends to be in a different frame of mind when on holiday, and using different parts of the rail network at different times. I'm sure that an Austrian or a Swiss trying to get to work on a miserable October morning has plenty of complaints about their rail

Because you are a railway enthusiast?

No, I'm not - apart from which I don't feel the same when I travel in many other countries. Why are Swiss trains clearly recognised as being about the best you can get ??

 

[yorksrob]

Was that policy not driven as much by more people being able to afford cars and therefore deserting public transport? Growing up in the 60s my family went on holiday by train (and yes, we were delayed sometimes as well!), but after finally being able to afford a (used) car around 1970..... we never went on holiday by train again. Not because of any Government policy, simply because the car was far more flexible and, for a family of 5, cheaper.

As with any Government policy, it may start with a grain of truth, but as soon as the potential for savings becomes apparent, the policy is implemented far in excess of what the public would agree to.

 

[Bald Rick]

A novice wouldn't even know what an "open return" means.

I put in "Ticket to Manchester" and I get Avanti and Trainline come up first and it defaults to today in 1hr on their journey planner with 2 clicks and I'd have to try hard to not be sold an Advance.

People are finding these fares and posting on them social media and being deliberately deceptive/cryptic about what that £369 quoted price is a ticket for.

Well, I’ve just tried “Ticket to Manchester”, got to Avanti, tapped through but it had already forgotten that I’m going to Manchester. Told it Manchester from London. Then filled out Open Return upon which the screen froze and I had to quit!
So (notionally) I gave up and got a taxi to Euston and headed straight to the booking office. Avanti’s website clearly can’t be trusted. See what I mean?

I just tried the same. Put ’Train to Manchester’ into the search bar, clicked on the first result (trainline) put in London to Manchester, leaving at 0900, ticked open return, and got offered 4 prices, the recommended one being £54 with one change, £109 no changes. If I was being price concious, I‘d check the restrictions (which are clearly marked) and go for one of those depending on how quickly i needed to get there. Why would I do anything else?

Cancelling trains due to lack of staff is not something we do at GA. We tend to have a plethora of traincrew as continued recruiting and training throughout the pandemic unlike many lame operators and have continued vigorously doing so ever since.

As I’ve said before, GA was (nearly) unique in this respeect because the local reps wanted to keep doing the training. This was not the case almost everywhere else.