Purchasing a train ticket with an App

[tom73]

Am I correct in my belief that the National Rail Conditions of Travel state very clearly that a passenger intending to board a train MUST be in possession of a valid ticket BEFORE boarding said train.
Boarding a train without a ticket and then attempting to purchase a ticket on your mobile device does not satisfy the requirements of the Conditions of Travel and if a passenger is detected doing this or attempting to do it, he/she can legitimately be treated as though no ticket was held.

 

[30907]

The usual exception permitting you to buy from on board staff don't apply to e/m tickets. This is in the app T&Cs even if not in NRCoT.

 

[Hadders]

Am I correct in my belief that the National Rail Conditions of Travel state very clearly that a passenger intending to board a train MUST be in possession of a valid ticket BEFORE boarding said train.
Boarding a train without a ticket and then attempting to purchase a ticket on your mobile device does not satisfy the requirements of the Conditions of Travel and if a passenger is detected doing this or attempting to do it, he/she can legitimately be treated as though no ticket was held.

This is correct.

 

[Belperpete]

You are allowed to board without a ticket if the station where you start your journey does not have facilities for ticket purchase.

 

[hkstudent]

You are allowed to board without a ticket if the station where you start your journey does not have facilities for ticket purchase.

Or the facilities are out of service (of course, better to photo the machine as a proof...)

 

[PeterC]

The usual exception permitting you to buy from on board staff don't apply to e/m tickets. This is in the app T&Cs even if not in NRCoT.

You are allowed to board without a ticket if the station where you start your journey does not have facilities for ticket purchase.

As we are explicitly talking about tickets bought through an app who is right?

 

[Hadders]

All this talk of facilities not being available is just clouding the issue.

If the OP intends to purchase a ticket online using an app then, in effect, the OP's chosen method of payment is available at the station and the ticket should be purchased before travel.

Call me cynical but this has the hallmarks of 'pay when challenged', i.e. purchase a ticket on the app once the guard or ticket inspector appears in the carriage....

 

[Belperpete]

As we are explicitly talking about tickets bought through an app who is right?

e and m tickets are very different things. For m tickets, they only become valid when activated, and you are required to validate it before boarding. If you validate it after boarding, it could be argued that you had broken the conditions of issue, so it still wasn't valid. So at a station without operational ticket-issuing facilities, you are perfectly entitled to board without a valid ticket, but don't expect your m-ticket to be accepted if you activate it on-board.

For e tickets, there is no requirement to activate the ticket. So, if you board at a station without operational ticket-issuing facilities, you are required to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity, and buying an e ticket would seem to fulfill that requirement.

 

[Belperpete]

Call me cynical but this has the hallmarks of 'pay when challenged', i.e. purchase a ticket on the app once the guard or ticket inspector appears in the carriage....

Cynical seems to be overlooking that 'pay when challenged' is the norm when travelling from stations without ticket-issuing facilities. The NRCoT explicitly say that it is perfectly acceptable to board without a ticket at such stations, and to purchase a ticket at the first suitable opportunity.

 

[Hadders]

If an e ticket or m ticket is the chosen method of payment then the ticketing issuing facility is available before the journey commences.

 

[[.n]]

If an e ticket or m ticket is the chosen method of payment then the ticketing issuing facility is available before the journey commences.

I have an app (several in fact) on my phone (ignoring I also have a web browser), but I have on occasion boarded without buying a ticket beforehand because a) Ticket Office closed, b) wanted to pay cash, c) some other valid (NRCoT) reason

If I then chose to buy a ticket via an app then I would argue there were no facilities for purchasing my ticket before travel.

 

[Hadders]

I have an app (several in fact) on my phone (ignoring I also have a web browser), but I have on occasion boarded without buying a ticket beforehand because a) Ticket Office closed, b) wanted to pay cash, c) some other valid (NRCoT) reason

That’s fine, as you are unable to purchase a ticket using your chosen payment method.

If I then chose to buy a ticket via an app then I would argue there were no facilities for purchasing my ticket before travel.

This is where I think it starts to become tricky, especially if you only purchase the ticket on the app then on board the train. It would certainly look like a pay when challenge.

 

[paddington]

If there is no/poor mobile signal and no wifi at the origin station, as well as no suitable TVM, then I would say that it was not possible to buy an app ticket before travel and buying on the train should be acceptable. Are there any stations where there is no mobile reception?

(Perhaps the Far North stations, though from personal experience there is excellent reception at Georgemas Junction, and Scotland doesn't really count since you can always buy on board in practice.)

 

[The BIgman1234]

If there is no/poor mobile signal and no wifi at the origin station, as well as no suitable TVM, then I would say that it was not possible to buy an app ticket before travel and buying on the train should be acceptable. Are there any stations where there is no mobile reception?

(Perhaps the Far North stations, though from personal experience there is excellent reception at Georgemas Junction, and Scotland doesn't really count since you can always buy on board in practice.)

Was going to ask if this buying a ticket before you board applies only in England ??? Depends on how I feel on the day as to wether I go to the ticket office or buy on the train . Never had a problem and get my staff discount to .

 

[30907]

If there is no/poor mobile signal and no wifi at the origin station, as well as no suitable TVM, then I would say that it was not possible to buy an app ticket before travel and buying on the train should be acceptable. Are there any stations where there is no mobile reception?

There is no general obligation on TOCs to provide wifi, and, as most phone owners are aware, the signal can be variable. Mobile users need to allow for that, and have cash or card for onboard payment.

Was going to ask if this buying a ticket before you board applies only in England ??? Depends on how I feel on the day as to wether I go to the ticket office or buy on the train . Never had a problem and get my staff discount to .

It applies throughout NR, but the law about prosecutions is different in Scotland. And rail staff, it seems, are less likely to be challenged.

 

[Hadders]

Was going to ask if this buying a ticket before you board applies only in England ??? Depends on how I feel on the day as to wether I go to the ticket office or buy on the train . Never had a problem and get my staff discount to .

Where ticketing facilities are available, that accept your chosen method of payment, then you must purchase your ticket before you board the train. This applies in Scotland as well as in England and Wales.

I’m not, and never have been employed by the railway, but if I was I wouldn’t want to do anything that could place my staff travel benefits at risk.

 

[[.n]]

That’s fine, as you are unable to purchase a ticket using your chosen payment method.



This is where I think it starts to become tricky, especially if you only purchase the ticket on the app then on board the train. It would certainly look like a pay when challenge.

TL/DR: I agree, but there are potential valid reasons to do so - especially with ticketing being so complicated!



I agree to an extent, but after a while when travelling to becomes the lesser evil, especially if you are travelling on a number of different TOCs, and sometimes in the end you just give up and change the your mind on the ticket you were originally going to purchase as different TOCs have different availability. In particular everytime I've travelled and ended up at Cardiff / Newport without a ticket (legitimately as I've tried to buy it along the way but not been able to for various acceptable reasons), and end up with the Ticket Office (after arguing my way through the barriers) claiming the requested ticket doesn't exist is so annoying [i.e. they don't know how to issue it!!!]. I think at this point if it were available online/via an app then regardless of my preference for a paper ticket that I might consider buying online just to deny the Cardiff/Newport ticket office the commission on the sale (especially as I usually end up giving in and purchasing a ticket I didn't request, that's the closest to the one I asked for.

It doesn't help that no one website/app gives full access to the full range of tickets that a ticket office does (or should be able to)

 

[Belperpete]

Are there any stations where there is no mobile reception?

I haven't been to check, but some of the Cambrian Coast halts are seemingly in the middle of nowhere. Perhaps some on the Conwy Valley, like Roman Bridge or Dolgarrog.

 

[Belperpete]

Was going to ask if this buying a ticket before you board applies only in England ??? Depends on how I feel on the day as to wether I go to the ticket office or buy on the train . Never had a problem and get my staff discount to .

Until the day when you find a team of RPIs going through the train. As has been mentioned on previous threads, because guards are seemingly happy to sell a ticket without ever mentioning that the passenger has done anything wrong, people come to believe that it is acceptable practice, and then get upset when they are caught by a revenue inspector. When I was eligible for staff privileges, I was always very mindful of how easily they could be lost if you were caught "defrauding the railway".

 

[Haywain]

When I was eligible for staff privileges, I was always very mindful of how easily they could be lost if you were caught "defrauding the railway".

Indeed, and this would result from disciplinary procedures which do not have the same burden of proof as criminal proceedings.

 

[[.n]]

Are there any stations where there is no mobile reception?

On SWR, there is Moreton, Wareham, Holton Heath as 3 off the top of my head

 

[bearhugger]

Are there any stations where there is no mobile reception?

Kildale on the Middlesbrough to Whitby line is a signal black hole. You have to go quite a way out of the village before you get voice or internet signal on your phone. It's been a while since I've been through the station so don't know if there's a TVM. Fortunately the local guards are a good bunch.

 

[The BIgman1234]

Until the day when you find a team of RPIs going through the train. As has been mentioned on previous threads, because guards are seemingly happy to sell a ticket without ever mentioning that the passenger has done anything wrong, people come to believe that it is acceptable practice, and then get upset when they are caught by a revenue inspector. When I was eligible for staff privileges, I was always very mindful of how easily they could be lost if you were caught "defrauding the railway".

Never going to happen as my booking office is 99% of the time closed. My passes are normally sitting on the table ready to buy my ticket so it’s not as if am trying to dodge paying for a ticket . As a grade 7 signaller I hardly think I’m going to risk my job over a £3 ticket lol .

 

[The BIgman1234]

Kildale on the Middlesbrough to Whitby line is a signal black hole. You have to go quite a way out of the village before you get voice or internet signal on your phone. It's been a while since I've been through the station so don't know if there's a TVM. Fortunately the local guards are a good bunch.

Until the day when you find a team of RPIs going through the train. As has been mentioned on previous threads, because guards are seemingly happy to sell a ticket without ever mentioning that the passenger has done anything wrong, people come to believe that it is acceptable practice, and then get upset when they are caught by a revenue inspector. When I was eligible for staff privileges, I was always very mindful of how easily they could be lost if you were caught "defrauding the railway".

It is acceptable practise in Scotland . I’ve never ever in my lifetime travelling on trains up here seen a guard or ticket examiner try and do someone for not having a ticket . Unless they are blatantly trying to avoid paying . Why give them a portable ticket machine in the first place lol . Plus they are on a commission for sold tickets , or at least used to be.

 

[tigerroar]

If I purchase a ticket on the trainline app on the bus to Bristol Temple Meads on Friday how will I get through the ticket barriers at the station? Do I need to collect a paper ticket or do I just show the app to a member of staff on the gateline?

 

[smsm1]

If I purchase a ticket on the trainline app on the bus to Bristol Temple Meads on Friday how will I get through the ticket barriers at the station? Do I need to collect a paper ticket or do I just show the app to a member of staff on the gateline?

If it's a mobile ticket, you'll have a barcode. Many ticket barriers now have a place to scan said barcodes and allow travel.
If it's a ticket on departure, then you pick the paper ticket up from a ticket machine first. The paper tickets open the barriers in the usual way.
If it's a smart card ticket then depending on the app and phone, you can pick it up either at the barriers, or tapping your smart card on the back of your phone while the app is running, and the ticket will be loaded on to the smart card, which can then be used for opening the barriers.

 

[yorkie]

Boarding a train without a ticket and then attempting to purchase a ticket on your mobile device does not satisfy the requirements of the Conditions of Travel and if a passenger is detected doing this or attempting to do it, he/she can legitimately be treated as though no ticket was held.

If the train departs from a station from which you have no valid fare, before the ticket has been purchased, then yes they could be treated as such.

In practice discretion may be shown. Just the other day a Guard allowed a passenger to purchase an online Railcard during their journey, after their (physical) Railcard was found to have expired, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the train departs from a station from which you have no valid fare, before the ticket has been purchased, then yes they could be treated as such.

In practice discretion may be shown. Just the other day a Guard allowed a passenger to purchase an online Railcard during their journey, after their (physical) Railcard was found to have expired, for example.

I have heard staff instructing people to purchase a ticket on their phone after finding they didn't have one, and watching over them while they did. It was along the lines of "I can only sell you an Anytime, but if you buy one on your phone you can use your Railcard" or somesuch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is acceptable practise in Scotland . I’ve never ever in my lifetime travelling on trains up here seen a guard or ticket examiner try and do someone for not having a ticket . Unless they are blatantly trying to avoid paying . Why give them a portable ticket machine in the first place lol . Plus they are on a commission for sold tickets , or at least used to be.

Scotland is different because the railway basically can't prosecute - the rules on private prosecutions are much stricter than in England. So it has to use more old fashioned methods to collect the actual revenue in the first place.

 

[mawallace]

I noticed a while back that if you want to buy a ticket for a train on the GA app, it won't let you proceed if the train time chosen departs in (I think) five minutes. There's also a delay in downloading the ticket.

I assume this is to force you to but ticket before boarding!