Putting new bodies on mk1 underframes

[Ken H]

Post in Leyland National facebook group about a prototype coach where they put a national bus body on a mk1 underframe. It was loco hauled stock, not a pacer. Wasnt developed further because of adverse press reaction and the need for loco hauled stock was going with sprinterisation.
There was another plan to mount new bodies on old underframes on the southern region. Not a new idea there. But that idea died with crashworthiness issues following cannon st crash.
Can anyone add detail to these hazy memories? And were there any other similar ones in BR days?

 

[contrex]

The Networker Classic idea got as far as a prototype driving trailer. In 1997 ADTranz at Derby took a 4-CIG underframe and mounted what looked like a class 168 or 357 body on it. Connex South Central thought about ordering some but decided on new-build instead.

British Rail Class 424 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ken H]

The Networker Classic idea got as far as a prototype driving trailer. In 1997 ADTranz at Derby took a 4-CIG underframe and mounted what looked like a class 168 or 357 body on it. Connex South Central thought about ordering some but decided on new-build instead.

British Rail Class 424 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Networker classic. Remember now thanks. Later than i thought.

 

[43096]

There was another plan to mount new bodies on old underframes on the southern region. Not a new idea there. But that idea died with crashworthiness issues following cannon st crash.
Can anyone add detail to these hazy memories? And were there any other similar ones in BR days?

The Networker Classic wasn't stopped by the Cannon Street accident: Cannon Street was in 1991 and the prototype Networker Classic didn't emerge until 1997. If anything it was the other way round: Networker Classic was developed as a result of the crashworthiness issues with Mark 1 and pre-Mark 1 stock.

 

[yorksrob]

The Networker Classic idea got as far as a prototype driving trailer. In 1997 ADTranz at Derby took a 4-CIG underframe and mounted what looked like a class 168 or 357 body on it. Connex South Central thought about ordering some but decided on new-build instead.

British Rail Class 424 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I wonder how many people got on the rebuilt coach, had a look around, them went back to sit in a proper CIG carriage.

 

[pdeaves]

This page may help http://www.traintesting.com/leyland-coach.htm (the 'bus body mark 1')

 

[Taunton]

The original concept for the Mk 1 stock from 1950 was that it would be rebodied; the chassis to last for about 40 years, and the bodies 20 years each. At the time rustproofing was not well developed and corrosion of steel bodies was just seen as wear and tear. It only became impractical because technical advances in the chassis gear (better bogies etc) overtook it, then integral construction came along.

The Mk 1 design was driven by Carriage & Wagon staff principally from the Southern and LNER. The Southern had a long tradition of rebodying carriages back to wooden body days, and the other way round, putting older bodies onto new chassis. A lot of their electric stock was done this way.

The issue at Cannon Street was not so much the physical age (it was a 1950s body on a 1930s frame) as inadequate couplings within the set with little or no protection against telescoping. Surprising, as on main line stock the Southern (and, again, LNER) were pioneers of buckeye couplings for main line stock, and indeed at the ends of electric sets, which are effective for this, but not within the set. The telescoping at Cannon Street was surprisingly down at about carriages 6 and 7 of a 10-car set - the buckeyes between units held up properly. People who came to aid the bufferstop collision initially had no idea what had happened further down the train. The large number of injuries were because everyone was standing up ready to disembark - advocates of minimal seating and mostly standee space please note.

 

[Rescars]

There has been a long history of recycling underframes south of London. Thus the Queen Mary bogie brake vans built by SR on the frames of redundant LBSC overhead electric power cars.

 

[GC class B1]

The now withdrawn Northern Island Railways class 450 used a Mk3 derivative EMU type body fitted on reclaimed Mk1 underframes. They had Mk2 coach brake equipment with B4 trailer and Mk 6 motor bogies (one being without traction motors and one with motors) and the original class 70 Power units and traction equipment. I real hybrid design using new bodies and bogies being manufactured at the time.

 

[High Dyke]

This page may help http://www.traintesting.com/leyland-coach.htm (the 'bus body mark 1')

It spent some time stored on the Nene Valley Railway, but I don't recall it was ever used.

 

[edwin_m]

It spent some time stored on the Nene Valley Railway, but I don't recall it was ever used.

Not in preservation maybe, but it was used in passenger service. I travelled on it between International and New Street in (probably) 1983, either right before or right after trying the Maglev. I later had a line manager who had a hand in both.

 

[pdeaves]

I wonder how many people got on the rebuilt coach, had a look around, them went back to sit in a proper CIG carriage.

I appreciate this was likely a light hearted comment, but... the '424' never entered passenger service. It was a sales demo that never came to anything.

 

[Ken H]

I appreciate this was likely a light hearted comment, but... the '424' never entered passenger service. It was a sales demo that never came to anything.

mixing powered doors and slam doors on the same train in actual service would be a definite no-no, surely?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Part of the problem with the Leyland coach was that it was fitted out with a high-density, mostly-airline seating layout much like the 155s... but then deployed on long distance Cross Country services. I'm sure it would have been fine for a journey like Bolton or Chester to Manchester, but less so for Manchester to Birmingham or Reading.

 

[Ploughman]

Recall that BREL York removed the underframes off some mk1's possibly for reuse under new bodies.
May have been an Irish contract about 1985

 

[30907]

Part of the problem with the Leyland coach was that it was fitted out with a high-density, mostly-airline seating layout much like the 155s... but then deployed on long distance Cross Country services. I'm sure it would have been fine for a journey like Bolton or Chester to Manchester, but less so for Manchester to Birmingham or Reading.

Agreed, but as a one-off it really needed a dedicated diagram - ISTR it was one of the Manchester-Brightons, maybe because InterCity wanted it out of harm's way?

 

[GC class B1]

Recall that BREL York removed the underframes off some mk1's possibly for reuse under new bodies.
May have been an Irish contract about 1985

May well have the been the NIR class 450 as my post above. The timescale would fit. There were 10 off 3 car sets so 30 underframes.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Agreed, but as a one-off it really needed a dedicated diagram - ISTR it was one of the Manchester-Brightons, maybe because InterCity wanted it out of harm's way?

It would have been more out of the way with Provincial, as well as that being a far more suitable use.

 

[Gloster]

Agreed, but as a one-off it really needed a dedicated diagram - ISTR it was one of the Manchester-Brightons, maybe because InterCity wanted it out of harm's way?

Keith Parkin’s HMRS book on Mark 1 Coaches says that, “from late 1983 and during 1984 it was reported variously on Euston-Shrewsbury and Manchester-South Coast workings.” It had one saloon of 32 seats with a toilet and a luggage rack opposite the toilets, and a second of 40 seats. It had 2+2 seating, mostly uni-directional, and no tables. The chassis came from BCK E21234 and the coach was numbered RDB977091, never gaining a traffic number.

 

[GM078]

Yep, the NIR 450s were an amalgam of new mk3-derived bodies, mk1 underframes and EE power equipment salvaged from the NIR 70 class.

NIR 458 “Antrim Castle”

458 is the sole survivor of NIR's nine-strong 450 Class, built by BREL between 1985 and 1987. The bodies were constructed at York and the rest of the fitting was carried out at Derby. As with many railway vehicles in Ireland, they were a quick and cheap fix to rolling stock shortages - they were ess

www.downrail.co.uk

 

[Strathclyder]

Yep, the NIR 450s were an amalgam of new mk3-derived bodies, mk1 undergrames and EE power equipment salvaged from the NIR 70 class.

NIR 458 “Antrim Castle”

458 is the sole survivor of NIR's nine-strong 450 Class, built by BREL between 1985 and 1987. The bodies were constructed at York and the rest of the fitting was carried out at Derby. As with many railway vehicles in Ireland, they were a quick and cheap fix to rolling stock shortages - they were ess

www.downrail.co.uk

The now withdrawn Northern Island Railways class 450 used a Mk3 derivative EMU type body fitted on reclaimed Mk1 underframes. They had Mk2 coach brake equipment with B4 trailer and Mk 6 motor bogies (one being without traction motors and one with motors) and the original class 70 Power units and traction equipment. I real hybrid design using new bodies and bogies being manufactured at the time.

Aye, these were rather interesting beasts to say the least. Effectively a budget Class 210 with the soundtrack of a Tadpole/Hastings unit (linked YT video from the Rail Videos NI channel). Cheap though they were, they helped hold the fort until new-build DMUs arrived in sufficent numbers.

As per the Leyland coach (RDB977091), pictures of it on the move on the mainline are rather scant to say the least. This is the best I've seen (dating from August 1984; copyright of Martin Loader), spotted at Quedgeley being hauled by then-soon to be withdrawn 45002 as part of a test train from Derby:

45002 Quedgeley 18 August 1984

www.hondawanderer.com

 

[JonathanH]

I appreciate this was likely a light hearted comment, but... the '424' never entered passenger service. It was a sales demo that never came to anything.

The 424 body was a bad compromise on the contemporary Turbostar design with sliding doors rather than plug doors and the standard Turbostar non-gangwayed front. I think it was somewhat fortunate that Connex didn't see any value in proceeding with the concept.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

European Passenger Services took the bodies of Mk1 coaches and modified the chassis to act as barrier vehicles for loco haulage of class 373s by pairs of 37s.
First Great Western had some Mk1s rebodied as Motorail vans in about 1999.

 

[Ken H]

Apologies for not finding this earlier. Screenshot of the mk1/leyland National coach

 

[urpert]

Some good pics of the Electrostar Classic (including the interior) on the SREMG page:

SREmG

sremg.org.uk

 

[yorksrob]

I appreciate this was likely a light hearted comment, but... the '424' never entered passenger service. It was a sales demo that never came to anything.

Fair point, but you see what I mean

 

[Taunton]

Another rebodied Mk1 (seeing as we seem to be working through them all) was the Southern Region "plastic coach" number S1000, a fibreglass body to high-density suburban layout built around 1960 as an experiment. I believe it was built on the almost-new chassis of the Mk1 SO whose body had been crushed by the collapsing overbridge in the 1957 Lewisham accident. Not like the Southern to waste an underframe of course. Although suburban layout, it was trialled on the obscure Hayling Island branch behind steam locomotives. It's still around at the East Somerset Railweay museum, now painted red but originally green of course. Probably the last ever loco-hauled suburban coach that was built.

 

[Gloster]

S1000S was built in 1963 (or possibly 1962) on the chassis of S4378 (or possibly S4377) that had been destroyed at Lewisham. Initially it was numbered DS70200, before becoming S1000S, which is a technically incorrect number as the suffix S should only have been used on pre-nationalisation builds.

 

[Strathclyder]

Apologies for not finding this earlier. Screenshot of the mk1/leyland National coach

The first pic of it I've seen of it in a passenger train. An interesting experiment for sure, but if I were travelling from end-to-end on that run, I'm afraid I'd go for one of the Mk2s either side of it!

 

[darwins]

This is my favourite replacement body on a Mk 1 underframe LYR Club Car