Puzzled about trains splitting

[BingMan]

There is an East Midlands service from Manchester to Nottingham and Norwich which splits at Nottingham leaving two coaches to go on to Norwich..
What puzzles me is that it is the two front coaches which are detached at Nottingham. Common sense would say that you would drop the back two coaches
So what is the reason for operating this way?

 

[sprinterguy]

The service reverses at Sheffield between Manchester and Nottingham, so the two carriages that were leading from Liverpool to Sheffield become the rear two from there, and are the two that are dropped after arrival at Nottingham.

 

[BingMan]

The service reverses at Sheffield between Manchester and Nottingham, so the two carriages that were leading from Liverpool and Sheffield become the rear two from there, and are the two that are dropped after arrival at Nottingham.

Ah. That makes sense . Thank you.

 

[Lewisham2221]

There is an East Midlands service from Manchester to Nottingham and Norwich which splits at Nottingham leaving two coaches to go on to Norwich..
What puzzles me is that it is the two front coaches which are detached at Nottingham. Common sense would say that you would drop the back two coaches
So what is the reason for operating this way?

A quick check of RTT suggests that most services do leave the rear unit at Nottingham (although this would be the FRONT unit from Liverpool until arrival at Sheffield, where the train reverses), although indeed in some cases it is the front unit which stays (or rather shunts). I presume that if everything runs to plan, it would always be the rear unit that remains at Nottingham, but there are instances where it's necessary to deviate from the plan (eg maintenance) to make sure units end up where they need to be overnight.

 

[6Gman]

A quick check of RTT suggests that most services do leave the rear unit at Nottingham (although this would be the FRONT unit from Liverpool until arrival at Sheffield, where the train reverses), although indeed in some cases it is the front unit which stays (or rather shunts). I presume that if everything runs to plan, it would always be the rear unit that remains at Nottingham, but there are instances where it's necessary to deviate from the plan (eg maintenance) to make sure units end up where they need to be overnight.

DMU diagramming was always my favourite; the most complex due to maintenance, fuel and toilet emptying!

Transport for Wales units must be fun to do given how often they reverse (Chester, Swansea, Carmarthen).

 

[Crossover]

DMU diagramming was always my favourite; the most complex due to maintenance, fuel and toilet emptying!

Transport for Wales units must be fun to do given how often they reverse (Chester, Swansea, Carmarthen).

Shrewsbury too, I think?

 

[Stampy]

The service reverses at Sheffield between Manchester and Nottingham, so the two carriages that were leading from Liverpool to Sheffield become the rear two from there, and are the two that are dropped after arrival at Nottingham.

A quick check of RTT suggests that most services do leave the rear unit at Nottingham (although this would be the FRONT unit from Liverpool until arrival at Sheffield, where the train reverses), although indeed in some cases it is the front unit which stays (or rather shunts). I presume that if everything runs to plan, it would always be the rear unit that remains at Nottingham, but there are instances where it's necessary to deviate from the plan (eg maintenance) to make sure units end up where they need to be overnight.

I've been on a few services between Sheffield and Peterborough where it's been the FRONT units on arrival into Nottingham that have stayed there* and the REAR units have continued on towards Grantham & Peterborough..

On all occasions, it's been "tannoyed" on the train between Sheffield and Nottingham that "It'll be the REAR two units that will continue on" a few times.

Was always interesting to watch the "scrum" at Nottingham, as people pushed and shoved trying to get onto the unit that was staying there!!!


*From memory - one time, one unit formed a service to Lincoln the another times the front unit went into Eastcroft depot at Nottingham.

 

[Geeves]

The Norwich train is a good one if your reservation is in a seat facing the other direction of travel to Norwich as you get a second bonus reversal at Ely!

 

[edwin_m]

The Norwich train is a good one if your reservation is in a seat facing the other direction of travel to Norwich as you get a second bonus reversal at Ely!

They don't do reservations on this service any more.

At one time some of these trains reversed again at Nottingham and ran via Loughborough and Melton, but I don't believe any of them do currently.

 

[duffield]

They don't do reservations on this service any more.

At one time some of these trains reversed again at Nottingham and ran via Loughborough and Melton, but I don't believe any of them do currently.

Yes, the couple of services that run via Loughborough and Melton currently start at Nottingham, so no triple reversals.

 

[robbeech]

Lots of variations over the years. One of them used to split at Nottingham and the rear portion went up the Robin Hood line, made it quicker to go that way to Whitwell than via Sheffield and Worksop at that time of day, and permitted due to direct train rule (somehow journey planners offered it).

Also used to be a Mansfield Woodhouse to Norwich that they’d often cancel at Nottingham and you’d have to wait for the next one that would come in from Sheffield way, then they’d tell passengers to get on the rear of 4 carriages, split it, join the 2 that came from Mansfield and then cancel the whole thing. Cracking morning out for nothing it was.

 

[M60lad]

Only ever ridden the service from Manchester-Nottingham is there a reason why units are detached at Nottingham and the service doesn't mostly run as 4 car all the way to Norwich?

 

[Polarbear]

Only ever ridden the service from Manchester-Nottingham is there a reason why units are detached at Nottingham and the service doesn't mostly run as 4 car all the way to Norwich?

I understand it’s down to average loadings being less on the Nottingham-Norwich sector.

 

[Harpo]

DFT has also tried meddling with the through service, variously trying to split it completely at Nottingham, divert it to Matlock etc..

Luckily, it’s remained as a through service.

 

[dk1]

Only ever ridden the service from Manchester-Nottingham is there a reason why units are detached at Nottingham and the service doesn't mostly run as 4 car all the way to Norwich?

There have never been enough units allocated to the franchise or to the previous EMT franchise to achieve this.

 

[edwin_m]

For a few years at the start of the franchise it was 2-car all the way, until some funding was found to add the extra unit west of Nottingham. There's one in the morning that is 4-car all the way from Norwich, probably because it hits Nottingham in the morning peak and makes extra stops for commuters on the Grantham line.

 

[wellhouse]

M60lad said:


Only ever ridden the service from Manchester-Nottingham is there a reason why units are detached at Nottingham and the service doesn't mostly run as 4 car all the way to Norwich?

Some services now run as 2x3-car 170s rather than 2x2-car 158s, so there are 3 coaches between Nottingham and Norwich

 

[dk1]

Some services now run as 2x3-car 170s rather than 2x2-car 158s, so there are 3 coaches between Nottingham and Norwich

One plan EMR was chewing over was to make some 3-car 158s up should additional units become available. This would allow those to project eastwards each hour to increase capacity with 2-car units strengthening as now between Liverpool & Nottingham.

 

[chubs]

I understand it’s down to average loadings being less on the Nottingham-Norwich sector.

If true it's because people know it's an inadequate service. Plenty of people here in Norwich would rather go direct than via London - price and guarantee of a seat permitting.

 

[MCR247]

If true it's because people know it's an inadequate service. Plenty of people here in Norwich would rather go direct than via London - price and guarantee of a seat permitting.

Well put it this way - at the start of the EMT franchise it was 2 car all the way and it caused major problems from Nottingham to Liverpool to the point it was in the press and DfT had to find extra stock from somewhere. So they strengthened the busiest part.

 

[Trainman40083]

The splitting of units at Nottingham can get interesting when, if late running, the train from Manchester is diverted via Dore South curve, bypassing Sheffield. Of course, at one time, the plan was for other operators to run the Liverpool to Norwich service, with the service cut in half at Nottingham. That might have seen Transpennine working the Liverpool leg, maybe Anglia working to Norwich.

 

[sprunt]

There have never been enough units allocated to the franchise or to the previous EMT franchise to achieve this.

So what happens to the two cars that get detached at Nottingham? Are they used for another service until the train gets back from Norwich?

 

[MCR247]

So what happens to the two cars that get detached at Nottingham? Are they used for another service until the train gets back from Norwich?

Usually they shunt out of the station to the depot and wait there until just before the next arrival from Norwich comes in - then shunts back into Nottingham and forms the front of that Liverpool departure.

Sometimes it may get pinched to go elsewhere if needed. Currently, with sets of both 170s and 158s operating separately between Liverpool and Norwich - sometimes instead of joining at Nottingham they’ll do a set swap - a 158 comes in from Norwich onto a platform which has a fresh 4 car 170 off the depot

 

[ainsworth74]

So what happens to the two cars that get detached at Nottingham? Are they used for another service until the train gets back from Norwich?

I believe they drop back a diagram and go back to Liverpool. For instance the 1134 arrival at Nottingham splits, one goes forward to Norwich and the other goes to the sidings before joining the 1245 departure back to Liverpool. Which saves a lot on units as if it stayed on the same set it wouldn't get back to Nottingham until 1739!

 

[dk1]

So what happens to the two cars that get detached at Nottingham? Are they used for another service until the train gets back from Norwich?

A shunt is performed at Nottingham to attach to the next westbound service.

 

[norbitonflyer]

So what happens to the two cars that get detached at Nottingham? Are they used for another service until the train gets back from Norwich?

No - that would defeat the purpose of splitting it. It waits for the next train to come back from Norwich, which will be much earlier than the unit with which it arrived at Nottingham.

 

[rower40]

Slightly off-thread, but I hope not too far:
Before Derby resignalling/remodelling (so before 2018), there used to be an 8- or 9-car voyager that came from Central Rivers early in the morning, splitting at Derby platform 6 to form a 4- (or 5-) car set to Newcastle, and a 4- (or 5-) car set to Plymouth.
So far, so good. But the confusing bit was this: the Newcastle unit was at the SOUTH end of Derby station, with the Plymouth unit at the NORTH end. This was because the Newcastle unit left first, and went via Trent Junction, Toton and the Erewash valley for route knowledge retention.
So one had to be extremely careful when boarding either portion of that train at Derby. A little (geographic) knowledge (i.e. that Newcastle is NORTH, and Plymouth is SOUTH) was a dangerous thing.

Since the resignalling, such a move would only be possible in platforms 3/4, which could use up valuable capacity there.

 

[Trainman40083]

Slightly off-thread, but I hope not too far:
Before Derby resignalling/remodelling (so before 2018), there used to be an 8- or 9-car voyager that came from Central Rivers early in the morning, splitting at Derby platform 6 to form a 4- (or 5-) car set to Newcastle, and a 4- (or 5-) car set to Plymouth.
So far, so good. But the confusing bit was this: the Newcastle unit was at the SOUTH end of Derby station, with the Plymouth unit at the NORTH end. This was because the Newcastle unit left first, and went via Trent Junction, Toton and the Erewash valley for route knowledge retention.
So one had to be extremely careful when boarding either portion of that train at Derby. A little (geographic) knowledge (i.e. that Newcastle is NORTH, and Plymouth is SOUTH) was a dangerous thing.

Since the resignalling, such a move would only be possible in platforms 3/4, which could use up valuable capacity there. No timetabled splits/joins of Voyagers at Derby any more.

I did get a surprise one day at Derby when a four car 220 was standing at the South end of platform 2. Then two four car sets arrived from the North. The rear set detached, whilst the front set attached to the spare set. Presume done to get a set back for maintenance. 12 Voyager coaches certainly filled platform 2.

 

[louis97]

No timetabled splits/joins of Voyagers at Derby any more.

There are still a small number of splits, all in the morning or evening.

 

[Travelmonkey]

There are still a small number of splits, all in the morning or evening.

The Nottingham>Bournemouth splits at Derby and runs ECS to Nottingham and the other unit does Plymouth run.