Qualified Drivers Southeastern - All Depots

[Emmsie]

Issue with that is the other nearby TOCs do all have some schemes like that. Most people - rightly or wrongly - go for the money followed by the roster, routes and commute. The first is poor under SE, 2nd depends on your depot, the 3rd is not great either (although the competitors are also all DOO metro-style services), and lastly most depots are within spitting distance for comparable TOCs.

Not saying that more can't be done and the ideas are sensible but for qualified drivers, I can't imagine many will be incentivised enough to switch for the reasons you mention.

I wasn't aware other TOCs already had similar practices, I know a friend at Southern had the devils own job getting them to agree part time, he had to find someone else to agree a job share and even then it was under duress and a 3 month trial. The poster above mentioned ASLEF and I wondered to what extent Unions have inadvertently played a part in making flexible working difficult. Theoritcially there should be a reasonable amount of flexibility in working patterns within the constraints of the timetable. Obviously the railway is never going to be a workplace that can cater to everyones needs, the needs of the business will always require cover at particular irregular times but I do think in this day and age more could be done. I have to say if there was a TOC out there that offered continental hours, I'd be 1st in line for recruitment. I personally love shifts and don't have a probel with early starts and late finishes but I hate getting into the routine of earlies then having to switch, it feels like I'm in permanent jet lag, a change through the week with my shifts getting later is much easier for me to manage. I get way more sleep but everyones circadian rhythm is different hence the suggestions at looking at a variety of shift patterns to suit.

 

[Horizon22]

I wasn't aware other TOCs already had similar practices, I know a friend at Southern had the devils own job getting them to agree part time, he had to find someone else to agree a job share and even then it was under duress and a 3 month trial. The poster above mentioned ASLEF and I wondered to what extent Unions have inadvertently played a part in making flexible working difficult. Theoritcially there should be a reasonable amount of flexibility in working patterns within the constraints of the timetable. Obviously the railway is never going to be a workplace that can cater to everyones needs, the needs of the business will always require cover at particular irregular times but I do think in this day and age more could be done. I have to say if there was a TOC out there that offered continental hours, I'd be 1st in line for recruitment. I personally love shifts and don't have a probel with early starts and late finishes but I hate getting into the routine of earlies then having to switch, it feels like I'm in permanent jet lag, a change through the week with my shifts getting later is much easier for me to manage. I get way more sleep but everyones circadian rhythm is different hence the suggestions at looking at a variety of shift patterns to suit.

Most (if not all) TOCs will have flexible working practices. But by its very nature shift work - with drivers being the most extreme compared to say conductors, controllers or station staff - will make it difficult without disadvantaging someone else on the roster. I for one am a late fan, which seems to be a rare occurence! Some do manage it but I get the impression that it comes down to the persuasiveness of the person in question & support of the line manager and results vary widly.

 

[SlimJim1694]

The poster above mentioned ASLEF and I wondered to what extent Unions have inadvertently played a part in making flexible working difficult.

They've (DCC) certainly played a part in the rostering issues by agreeing the ending of non-residential status and taxi agreements for Victoria and Charing Cross depots. The narrative from both sides suddenly became "it was never written down, it was a gentlemen's agreement" and the mass exodus and revolving door status of both depots really started in earnest.

 

[387star]

They've (DCC) certainly played a part in the rostering issues by agreeing the ending of non-residential status and taxi agreements for Victoria and Charing Cross depots. The narrative from both sides suddenly became "it was never written down, it was a gentlemen's agreement" and the mass exodus and revolving door status of both depots really started in earnest.

Yet at TL it is possible for pre 2017 drivers to be Peterborough based and eligible for taxis .

 

[ComUtoR]

Most (if not all) TOCs will have flexible working practices.

Which at Southeastern is a joke. Not sure on other TOCs but it is a clause that is applied with a heavy amount of lip service. Flexible working policies come with deep caveats which often benefit the company. They have a policy which states 'you can apply for flexible working' or 'we have a flexible working policy' but it is completely discretionary and every request can be declined on the basis of 'no business benefit' When you have a 'policy' that can effectively be ignored on a whim; that policy is worthless.

But by its very nature shift work - with drivers being the most extreme compared to say conductors, controllers or station staff - will make it difficult without disadvantaging someone else on the roster.

This no longer applies -anywhere. The world had moved on and the Railway is stuck with antiquated policies and working practices. Other TOCs are making it work with a more fixed roster pattern and multiple links for flexible working. Other employers have taken on employment laws and added it to how they manage staff. The railway seem to have ignored it and added get out clauses and then convinced people that the railway has to work a certain way.

At SE its made worse because there isn't consensus across the company, let alone the depots. As you mentioned, it can 'depend on your depot'. You have Managers at one depot making things work and Managers at others who simply outright refuse any changes. Person A gets accommodated but someone at another depot in the same circumstance gets refused. That inconsistency is why Metro suffers so much. It's why Vic Drivers are leaving, Orpington Drivers are leaving, and why so many want to transfer into places like Tonbridge.

It's even worse with how the rostering works. Drivers are getting fobbed off with 'this can't be done' but they see it happening at other depots.

The other issue at SE is that it’s fairly stuck in its ways. Places like Crossrail seemed to promote flexible working/job shares etc. - although how true any of that was I’m not sure.

Exactly, other TOCs are making it work. They are offering Drivers what they need and are gaining employees and have much better staff retention numbers.

The poster above mentioned ASLEF and I wondered to what extent Unions have inadvertently played a part in making flexible working difficult.

They are the ones who agree to the terms and conditions. They 'agree' the rosters they 'agree' when policies get changed. Quite often the rhetoric simply changes depending on which way the wind blows. At my TOC I have seen terms change that go against ASLEFs own charter agreement. Specifically at SE ASLEF are seen as weak. They literally have zero power and no respect amongst the Drivers. With all the complaints they are the ones who are supposed to have the power to change things or ensure that policies are applied equally and consistently. Its incredible that ASLEF at some TOCs have successfully managed to change rosters and to ensure flexible working it introduced across the board but again at SE.....

They've (DCC) certainly played a part in the rostering issues by agreeing the ending of non-residential status and taxi agreements for Victoria and Charing Cross depots. The narrative from both sides suddenly became "it was never written down, it was a gentlemen's agreement" and the mass exodus and revolving door status of both depots really started in earnest.

The 'not written down' thing is a concern. There is a lot of 'grey areas' that go against the Drivers but are never cleared up. At my TOC there are policies that Managers apply that are purely arbitrary and nobody batters an eyelid. Or when there is a dispute with a turn being 'legal or not' the response from the LDR is 'well. work it today, send me a copy so we have evidence'

 

[43066]

Obviously the railway is never going to be a workplace that can cater to everyones needs, the needs of the business will always require cover at particular irregular times

This is the crux of the issue. For every person who gets family friendly or “flexible” shifts, there’s going to be someone else whose going to cop that person’s share of anti social starts/finishes. That isn’t an issue specific to SE, just the job in general.

A more positive way of looking at it is that with a four day week, days off during the week, the ability to book ad hoc annual leave, swap rostered leave, swap shifts etc. There’s already more flexibility built into the job than many traditional Monday - Friday roles. But the workforce is left to manage its own flexibility to a large extent.

 

[Horizon22]

At SE its made worse because there isn't consensus across the company, let alone the depots. As you mentioned, it can 'depend on your depot'. You have Managers at one depot making things work and Managers at others who simply outright refuse any changes. Person A gets accommodated but someone at another depot in the same circumstance gets refused. That inconsistency is why Metro suffers so much. It's why Vic Drivers are leaving, Orpington Drivers are leaving, and why so many want to transfer into places like Tonbridge.

It's even worse with how the rostering works. Drivers are getting fobbed off with 'this can't be done' but they see it happening at other depots.

The localism is certainly a problem. I'm no driver, but if I was going to move to SE as a qualified after speaking to some, Tonbridge would far and away be my first call - decent managers and varied routes.

 

[JammyJames08]

The localism is certainly a problem. I'm no driver, but if I was going to move to SE as a qualified after speaking to some, Tonbridge would far and away be my first call - decent managers and varied routes.

This is what is puzzling to us within se already. Gillingham Tonbridge Orpington and Slade green are full. And the first two are over established. ‍♂️

 

[DA1]

This is what is puzzling to us within se already. Gillingham Tonbridge Orpington and Slade green are full. And the first two are over established. ‍♂️

Are there any which aren’t full?

 

[JammyJames08]

Vic, Dartford, Charing Cross. But they've all got trainees coming through...

 

[DA1]

Vic, Dartford, Charing Cross. But they've all got trainees coming through...

All the other metro depots then. Grove Park as well?

I’m awaiting a DMI date for (probably) Dartford when HR return to office so I assume there are still positions, other than the trainees in the system, to be filled.

 

[JammyJames08]

I haven't been over to grove park for a while, I *think* they've got more mainline work on account of Orpington becoming metro only. I know a few link 2 drivers there and they're going down to Tunbridge Wells & Ashford much more than before.

is DMI a Driver Manager Interview? if so good luck and hope it happens soon!

 

[DA1]

I haven't been over to grove park for a while, I *think* they've got more mainline work on account of Orpington becoming metro only. I know a few link 2 drivers there and they're going down to Tunbridge Wells & Ashford much more than before.

is DMI a Driver Manager Interview? if so good luck and hope it happens soon!

Yes that’s correct. I’ve already got a trainee job lined up with another TOC which pays more and probably has more interesting work but location is a big thing and to work 5/10mins walk to the depot would be hard to turn down even for less money.

Thank you.

 

[JammyJames08]

No worries, fingers crossed for you and hope you get to where you want!

 

[SlimJim1694]

This is what is puzzling to us within se already. Gillingham Tonbridge Orpington and Slade green are full. And the first two are over established. ‍♂️

I guess they are factoring in the high turnover. I wonder if any qualified drivers put in for Gillingham or Tonbridge they will say "those are full right now but we can offer you Dartford or Orpington instead!" (Like John Candy trying to get a hotel room for his Casio watch in Planes, Trains and Automobiles)

 

[JammyJames08]

indeed so!

 

[alanyoung165]

Most companies wont take you with recent incidents, the timeframe is TOC dependant.
Probably looking at at least 3-5 years after a serious incident

When you mention incidents, what do you mean?? Overspeed, wrong side door opening, TPWS etc

 

[ComUtoR]

When you mention incidents, what do you mean?? Overspeed, wrong side door opening, TPWS etc

Yep, all of those.

 

[Emmsie]

So if the salary and work aren't particularly desirable in comparision to other TOCs in the region and Southeastern aren't prepared to change their payscales, is there anything they can do work/life balance wise to compensate and encourage drivers to move. More part time driver roles possibly, or a choice of shift patterns ie permanent earlies/lates, the more traditional week of earlies, week of lates, continental shift pattern where your 1st shift is an early and as the week progresses your shift start time gets later. Any other suggestions?
Edited to add removing rostered leave and implementing a computer system to book annual leave.

So there is an article on the BBC about sleep patterns being hard wired into individuals https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-53082182. In the above comment I made a couple of roster suggestions that were misconstrued by some as being aimed at making a drivers job family friendly which wasn't really the aim. My suggestions were to do with having a variety of shift patterns to suit peoples lives and sleep patterns, not about giving some people an 8am to 5pm job so they could manage childcare, that would be completely unreasonable.

 

[WA_Driver]

I'm sure as a trainee its the same as any other TOC... even if you do get the job as a trainee the calibre of the instructors is shocking. A lot of them have absolutely shameful safety records.....

The vast bulk of the good instructors chucked it in after the West Wickham incident when the instructor involved in that was hauled over the coals (thankfully and rightfully he was eventually exonerated, but not before the damage had been done) so the company began to recruit anyone they could to fill the void and to meet the ever-consistent churning out of trainees to replace the sacked and the leavers. There are plenty of guys with any combination of SPADS, TPWS, overruns, stop shorts, wrong side releases, opening the doors on Hungerford Bridge, rollbacks etc, training newbies how to drive trains. Most of the current DIs on Southeastern wouldnt even get jobs as carriage cleaners on any other TOC.... and by that I mean no disrespect to carriage cleaners.

On top of all that the pay and conditions are crap by national standards and the strength of the union on SE is zero. DCC are jolly boys out on the beer sending out a one page A4 "bulletin" once every six months (telling us how they have accepted whatever management have fobbed them off with this time) to justify their full time release.

I can't imagine there has been much uptake on this advert. Anyone applying will get it, that's for sure. It's not as if SE are in any position to start any kind of "sift".

No but you’re disrespecting fellow members of staff.

Instead of getting on your ‘soap box’ why not make the change by becoming a DI??

Oh. If you don’t like your DCC why not go to branch meetings and voice your concerns and vote for change...

 

[SlimJim1694]

I had decided to say nothing further on this topic but just to respond to the points raised above...

Instead of getting on your ‘soap box’ why not make the change by becoming a DI??

If you thought your local bin collection was crap would you make the change by putting in for a job as a binman?

Oh. If you don’t like your DCC why not go to branch meetings and voice your concerns and vote for change...

How do you know I haven't been doing that for years?

No but you’re disrespecting fellow members of staff.

I can see how it may have come across that way. I have voiced a personal opinion based on my own personal experiences. I have spoken to a few people about this and I will admit my morale had been getting fairly low, if that's come across in my posts then I apologise. I am aware of it now and trying to have a more positive outlook. I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone. For balance, I also work with some fantastic people across all roles, including drivers, platform staff, managers, instructors and union reps. If its come across that I'm suggesting they are all bad then hopefully this will set the record straight.

 

[20atthemagnet]

Ahh yes , could be. Wonder why you only ever see London overground advertise for new gate and Willesden never Chingford / Watford

Watford Junction has a slightly different working pattern and no nights. Many ARL drivers are down for a lateral move and have been on there for many many many years waiting for retirements.
Chingford has become a second Watford. The T&Cs are very favorable, not the same as the rest of ARL, and the work is considered some of the shortest of any Metro work in the country. The list for there is massive now aswell as a result.

If anyone leaves either of the two depots a lateral move from Wilesden/New Cross will take it and then Trainee/Qualified positions will always be advertised for NX/Wilesden. You most likely wont see trainees or qualified vacancies for the above depots for the rest of the franchise, plenty of people to fill gaps, and companys reluctant to stick new recruits on more favorable terms.

In relation to this ad NX ARL is the worst but would still be a step down to SE for many of the reasons above, even if the SE depot was across the road from their house. Many ex SE drivers at companies Ive worked for would rather contest the worst of londons traffic, try to squeeze through Rotherhithe/Blackwall Tunnel for work north of the river than go back to an SE depot which blows my mind. However they speak highly of the staff, not so much the company.

 

[Evolution]

There’s a couple of ex SE drivers at my TOC and neither speak highly of the place.

Something to note though both said they found the transition to mainline challenging, especially when you have to drive into some very complex stations up north such as Leeds, Manchester and Sheffield. The latter being particularly awkward in places with GPL’s everywhere. Quite a few spads happened in these areas.

 

[SlimJim1694]

There’s a couple of ex SE drivers at my TOC and neither speak highly of the place.

Something to note though both said they found the transition to mainline challenging, especially when you have to drive into some very complex stations up north such as Leeds, Manchester and Sheffield. The latter being particularly awkward in places with GPL’s everywhere. Quite a few spads happened in these areas.

I find that really interesting. Are these areas any more challenging than the 4 central London terminals (Victoria, Charing Cross, Cannon St, Blackfriars) that SE sign, or the approaches into London Bridge? Just looked on Traksy and can't see anything overly challenging about those locations. I would have thought the complexity of routes SE serve would leave ex-SE drivers in good stead to work into pretty much any other major station in the country. Also the fact that SE drivers are experts in running for miles on single and double yellows.

I would have thought would be the long stretches of nothing that metro men wouldn't be used to... but maybe that's why they have incidents? Less pressure perhaps for miles and miles, and then suddenly hit these complex areas and struggle to adapt to the situation.

Its definitely food for thought, everyone I've spoken to who has left says it's better... but it just goes to show- the risks of incident are lurking everywhere.

 

[Evolution]

I would say Sheffield is more difficult than those stations, it’s a nightmare of a station to drive into and shunt. GPL’s are everywhere and there are many danger points that lure you in. Most drivers hate shunting there and often ask a local driver to accompany them. It’s an ancient station that has had to adapt to the traffic and the layout isn’t well thought out as a result.

Leeds can be bad for wrong routing with so many platforms with various rules. The layout is good though.

As you say I think the issue could be adapting to 125mph and then entering tricky stations. If you’re used to running on single and double yellows at probably low speeds you have to constantly be on your game. With the intercity you can run on greens for hundreds of miles and then suddenly get checked down. It’s a different kind of driving but I’m sure most drivers could adapt with time.

 

[Horizon22]

Watford Junction has a slightly different working pattern and no nights. Many ARL drivers are down for a lateral move and have been on there for many many many years waiting for retirements.
Chingford has become a second Watford. The T&Cs are very favorable, not the same as the rest of ARL, and the work is considered some of the shortest of any Metro work in the country. The list for there is massive now aswell as a result.

If anyone leaves either of the two depots a lateral move from Wilesden/New Cross will take it and then Trainee/Qualified positions will always be advertised for NX/Wilesden. You most likely wont see trainees or qualified vacancies for the above depots for the rest of the franchise, plenty of people to fill gaps, and companys reluctant to stick new recruits on more favorable terms.

In relation to this ad NX ARL is the worst but would still be a step down to SE for many of the reasons above, even if the SE depot was across the road from their house. Many ex SE drivers at companies Ive worked for would rather contest the worst of londons traffic, try to squeeze through Rotherhithe/Blackwall Tunnel for work north of the river than go back to an SE depot which blows my mind. However they speak highly of the staff, not so much the company.

New Cross is a very popular option for SE metro drivers. Not a huge upgrade, but it's still something, very easily commutable and better pay. Am aware of several London terminal depots that have gone to NWX.