Qualified Vs Apprentice positions

[Driver068]

Firstly apologies if this has been discussed else where or in the past.

For a number of years now majority of TOCs and FOCs are going down the apprenticeship route for hiring drivers - from where I live there are about 6 TOCs Inc OAO who have hired apprenticeships trainees over Qualified drivers over the last 2-3 years. Which may i add is a fantastic opportunity for those wanting to break into the industry straight to a Driver. However I do wonder where does this leave Qualified Train Drivers who let's say may want to move to another company for what ever there reasons may be. From my experience getting your key and finally making it to a Driver is a hard process and now moving TOCs may now provide a harder aspiration. I wonder what others thoughts are on will there ever be opportunities opening up for Qualified Train drivers to be hired in from other TOCs in the future or will apprenticeship positions be the way forward and many will find it extremely difficult moving TOCs and as far as I am aware Qualified Drivers are NOT eligibleto apply for trainee positions if they so wish - Never say never I suppose, but how hard would a move actually be.

Cheers in advance.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Qualified driver vacancies are still advertised all over the place. You can still move if there's a vacancy and you interview well.

 

[diego1234]

Firstly apologies if this has been discussed else where or in the past.

For a number of years now majority of TOCs and FOCs are going down the apprenticeship route for hiring drivers - from where I live there are about 6 TOCs Inc OAO who have hired apprenticeships trainees over Qualified drivers over the last 2-3 years. Which may i add is a fantastic opportunity for those wanting to break into the industry straight to a Driver. However I do wonder where does this leave Qualified Train Drivers who let's say may want to move to another company for what ever there reasons may be. From my experience getting your key and finally making it to a Driver is a hard process and now moving TOCs may now provide a harder aspiration. I wonder what others thoughts are on will there ever be opportunities opening up for Qualified Train drivers to be hired in from other TOCs in the future or will apprenticeship positions be the way forward and many will find it extremely difficult moving TOCs and as far as I am aware Qualified Drivers are NOT eligibleto apply for trainee positions if they so wish - Never say never I suppose, but how hard would a move actually be.

Cheers in advance.

Exactly my thoughts! I would like to try move TOC's yet its proving impossible as one (GTR) apparently hardly ever recruits qualified drivers and think it's fairly rare for the other (SWR) to go down this route too (hopefully I'm wrong!) Would love to know generally speaking why this is the case?
I've approached both HR departments but had no luck whatsoever!

 

[tiptoptaff]

I think its important to remember that just because we're qualified, doesn't make us entitled to move jobs

 

[choochoochoo]

I may be completely wrong (and cynical too) but apprenticeships mean the government chip in and reduce the training costs.

Also right now recruiting trainees right now makes sense in that should GBR come in and decide to decimate routes and frequency, then it's probably easier to reassign a trainee who is going through training than make a qualified redundant.

 

[387star]

Exactly my thoughts! I would like to try move TOC's yet its proving impossible as one (GTR) apparently hardly ever recruits qualified drivers and think it's fairly rare for the other (SWR) to go down this route too (hopefully I'm wrong!) Would love to know generally speaking why this is the case?
I've approached both HR departments but had no luck whatsoever!

Both are rare but both advertised around 2019
Email HR
GTR used to recruit Qualifieds via Gx

 

[Driver068]

Qualified driver vacancies are still advertised all over the place. You can still move if there's a vacancy and you interview well.

I am aware some still advertise nationwide and that being successful is down to the individual. Its a question of do TOCs/FOCs find it more beneficial to recruit trainees and if the case then less likely to advertise for Qualified roles.

I think its important to remember that just because we're qualified, doesn't make us entitled to move jobs

I dont believe that's been suggested in any of the above posts - it's no difference to anyone in the Rail industry applying for other roles/companies or moving to driver position - again this question centres from a company prospective NOT the drivers. No one is entitled to these opportunities.

I may be completely wrong (and cynical too) but apprenticeships mean the government chip in and reduce the training costs.

Also right now recruiting trainees right now makes sense in that should GBR come in and decide to decimate routes and frequency, then it's probably easier to reassign a trainee who is going through training than make a qualified redundant.

Yes - I do believe there is a financial benefit to the company in question.

I very much doubt they could do that. From day one the Trainee is entitled to sign up to one of the unions and I'm sure it would be unacceptable from their point of view. I am also under the impression the vacancies that have risen over the last few months since the GBR announcement would be more or less factored in to forth coming changes - to a degree anyway. I however may be mistaken on this.

 

[43066]

Exactly my thoughts! I would like to try move TOC's yet its proving impossible as one (GTR) apparently hardly ever recruits qualified drivers and think it's fairly rare for the other (SWR) to go down this route too (hopefully I'm wrong!) Would love to know generally speaking why this is the case?
I've approached both HR departments but had no luck whatsoever!

I’ve been aware of qualified people who’ve approached HR and been taken on at less popular metro depots for both GTR and Southeastern. However if you’re looking at the more popular “dead man’s shoes” depots it will be harder.

The outer/coastal depots of most London commuter TOCs have a ready supply of metro drivers moving out, who are then usually replaced with trainees due to little interest from qualified drivers in metro work.

 

[diego1234]

I’ve been aware of qualified people who’ve approached HR and been taken on at less popular metro depots for both GTR and Southeastern. However if you’re looking at the more popular “dead man’s shoes” depots it will be harder.

The outer/coastal depots of most London commuter TOCs have a ready supply of metro drivers moving out, who are then usually replaced with trainees due to little interest from qualified drivers in metro work.

Thanks for the insight. Whenever I've approached HR they always just say keep checking their recruitment website even after sending a CV and highlighting my experience. I'd be looking at a London depot (preferably outer London towards the south) as recently moved so craving an easier commute even though my current company, GWR aren't bad at all..

Guess I'll just have to keep plugging away!

 

[Economist]

Historically, it seemed that a lot of the qualified vacancies available at certain TOCs, typically the best paid with the long-distance work, were effectively a reward for keeping a good or clean safety record for a few years. Now there are far fewer qualified vacancies at those TOCs.

Personally, I think all TOCs should recruit a mixture of trainees and qualified drivers.

 

[michael74]

The Govt does not pay into the Levy, they administer it, the companies pay into it, its about the only decent thing to come out of this hateful Govt an explanation on how it works is HERE

An apprentice has the same employment rights as a "traditional" trainee.... (usually).

 

[43066]

The Govt does not pay into the Levy, they administer it, the companies pay into it, its about the only decent thing to come out of this hateful Govt an explanation on how it works is HERE

An apprentice has the same employment rights as a "traditional" trainee.... (usually).

I would disagree with this being used by TOCs for trainee driver roles, though. The average recruit will be someone in their 30s or 40s going into second careers, with a good level of experience and transferable skills, not your 18yo school leaver with no experience who “apprenticeships” are traditionally aimed at.

It’s just a shameless cash grab.

Now there are far fewer qualified vacancies at those TOCs.

Not sure about that. London “intercity” depots have recruited for qualified drivers quite a few times recently, and even for trainees in the case of LNER, which was unheard of previously.

It’s doubtful that will stop anytime soon with many established drivers reaching retirement age in the next few years.

 

[michael74]

I would disagree with this being used by TOCs for trainee driver roles, though. The average recruit will be someone in their 30s or 40s going into second careers, with a good level of experience and transferable skills, not your 18yo school leaver with no experience who “apprenticeships” are traditionally aimed at.

It’s just a shameless cash grab.

I have to disagree there. You can be an apprentice at any age, in the NHS for instance, we now have Student Nursing Associates and Student Registered Nurses who are apprentices and this attracts mature students as it pays a decent wage and their is no student loans or tuition fees. We also have staff who are already qualified Nurses who are completing advance practitioner courses and Masters in Nursing as apprentices, these nurses do not get paid less, its actively preventing a "brain drain" from the NHS..... Companies choose how much they pay apprentices, its not set by Govt.

 

[wobman]

I have to disagree there. You can be an apprentice at any age, in the NHS for instance, we now have Student Nursing Associates and Student Registered Nurses who are apprentices and this attracts mature students as it pays a decent wage and their is no student loans or tuition fees. We also have staff who are already qualified Nurses who are completing advance practitioner courses and Masters in Nursing as apprentices, these nurses do not get paid less, its actively preventing a "brain drain" from the NHS..... Companies choose how much they pay apprentices, its not set by Govt.

I agree with you 1000% there's no age limit to being an apprentice, an nvq level 3 is a great achievement.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm on an apprenticeship as a fully qualified Driver. However...

I fully agree with this :

It’s just a shameless cash grab.

 

[michael74]

I'm on an apprenticeship as a fully qualified Driver. However...

I fully agree with this :

How is it a shameless cash grab? Large companies pay into it and can draw down on those funds to fund Apprenticeships, smaller companies who can't afford to pay into it can still use funds from it, the Govt do not directly benefit.

 

[tiptoptaff]

How is it a shameless cash grab? Large companies pay into it and can draw down on those funds to fund Apprenticeships, smaller companies who can't afford to pay into it can still use funds from it, the Govt do not directly benefit.

Because it's not really an apprenticeship and not really what the fund is meant to be used for. It's simply a way for the TOCs to offset the costs of driver training, vacancies they'd have to fill anyway. Not like it is intended, which is to encourage businesses to creat proper apprenticeships for young people.

 

[michael74]

Because it's not really an apprenticeship and not really what the fund is meant to be used for. It's simply a way for the TOCs to offset the costs of driver training, vacancies they'd have to fill anyway. Not like it is intended, which is to encourage businesses to creat proper apprenticeships for young people.

You will find that pretty much every company that pays into the levy uses the levy in that way, NHS TOCs NR Openreach, Councils etc.... Correct me if I am wrong but people are getting the opportunity to learn a skill and gain employment and get a wage for it and vacancies are being filled..... Young people are benefiting from these apprenticeships and all the companies I have just listed above are currently recruiting school leavers (its Apprenticeship week)

And if your talking the about old fashioned indentured 5 year apprenticeships, they went a long time ago.

 

[43066]

How is it a shameless cash grab? Large companies pay into it and can draw down on those funds to fund Apprenticeships, smaller companies who can't afford to pay into it can still use funds from it, the Govt do not directly benefit.

I can’t speak for the NHS, perhaps it’s more relevant there. But what’s the point of TOCs using this scheme for trainee drivers? It’s an incredibly niche job, which they’d be training people up for anyway, even if they weren’t given access to this cash.

It’s enabling them to tick a box and take up cash that could be better used for genuine “apprentices” who are just starting out. Basically an abuse of the system, in my view.

I have just listed above are currently recruiting school leavers (its Apprenticeship week)

You can’t be a train driver if you’re under 21, and the *vast* majority of new joiners are considerably older.

 

[ComUtoR]

They have only appeared recently. It's naieve to believe that companies aren't making a profit out of it.

From a TOC perspective, nothing has changed. My TOC is offering the same training as before, under the same terms and conditions and it has zero impact on your role.

Sure I'm a little cynical but it doesn't do anything other than gain a few quid to offset training costs. It's just a new loophole to generate cash.

There is almost zero benefit to the employee. They are employed and will become a Driver irrespective of passing the apprenticeship. I know at least one Driver at my depot who still hasn't passed it, two years after passing out.

It is almost meaningless in terms of any real tangible benefits.

Correct me if I am wrong but people are getting the opportunity to learn a skill and gain employment and get a wage for it and vacancies are being filled.....

If the apprenticeship didn't exist tomorrow. It would change nothing.

Young people are benefiting from these apprenticeships and all the companies I have just listed above are currently recruiting school leavers (its Apprenticeship week)

In terms of Train Drivers you need to be 21. They are not exactly school leavers and they are not benefitting from an apprenticeship. The job exists and there is a queue a mile long of applicants. On the job training has always been provided.

The apprenticeship isn't being offered to incentivise employment or to provide additional skills for development. It's there to help the employer offset costs.

I'd be interested to see what benefits are gained from being an apprentice train driver.

I have a city and guild in train driving. It literally took me a few hours to fill in a small booklet and gain the qualification. I'm on an apprentiship now for other reasons and I can see a benefit but for new Trainees it really is an abuse of the system to get SE government cash.

Oh and it also means TOCs can add English and Maths as pre employment qualifications.

 

[michael74]

I can’t speak for the NHS, perhaps it’s more relevant there. But what’s the point of TOCs using this scheme for trainee drivers? It’s an incredibly niche job, which they’d be training people up for anyway, even if they weren’t given access to this cash.

It’s enabling them to tick a box and take up cash that could be better used for genuine “apprentices” who are just starting out. Basically an abuse of the system, in my view.



You can’t be a train driver if you’re under 21, and the *vast* majority of new joiners are considerably older.

We are both looking at this from different ends of the telescope..... I am currently employed by a University to guide apprentices though their training programmes and have previously worked in an NHS Education Dept recruiting and supporting Apprentices (young and old, those already in jobs who are furthering their carers and getting a qualification and and those starting out on a new career path either straight from school or mature) NHS or TOC the principles are exactly the same, they have to be, its called the Apprenticeship Standards

By using the levy to train, drivers is perfectly acceptable, their is plenty of cash in the levy, yes it does save the TOC some money, but its also money that they have to put in, its not free money if they don't claim it back its lost to them...... no young people are being deprived an apprenticeship due to this..... One of my Apprentices is 56.....

 

[AverageJoe]

Unless existing old school train drivers find the fountain of youth and can live forever then new drivers will be needed and these apprenticeships are an excellent way to go about it.

I’ve been looking on TOC’s recruitment pages and there is tons of qualified driver roles available.

They just don’t appear on here because most of us are looking to get into the industry so we share trainee roles that are newly posted.

 

[michael74]

They have only appeared recently. It's naieve to believe that companies aren't making a profit out of it.

From a TOC perspective, nothing has changed. My TOC is offering the same training as before, under the same terms and conditions and it has zero impact on your role.

Sure I'm a little cynical but it doesn't do anything other than gain a few quid to offset training costs. It's just a new loophole to generate cash.

There is almost zero benefit to the employee. They are employed and will become a Driver irrespective of passing the apprenticeship. I know at least one Driver at my depot who still hasn't passed it, two years after passing out.

It is almost meaningless in terms of any real tangible benefits.


If the apprenticeship didn't exist tomorrow. It would change nothing.


In terms of Train Drivers you need to be 21. They are not exactly school leavers and they are not benefitting from an apprenticeship. The job exists and there is a queue a mile long of applicants. On the job training has always been provided.

The apprenticeship isn't being offered to incentivise employment or to provide additional skills for development. It's there to help the employer offset costs.

I'd be interested to see what benefits are gained from being an apprentice train driver.

I have a city and guild in train driving. It literally took me a few hours to fill in a small booklet and gain the qualification. I'm on an apprentiship now for other reasons and I can see a benefit but for new Trainees it really is an abuse of the system to get SE government cash.

Oh and it also means TOCs can add English and Maths as pre employment qualifications.

I am going to step off this conversation now, as you can tell I have a passion for this and and as I say, its currently my job so I have a declared interest lol.... Come this May, I will be a Trainee Guard with GWR..... and the learning continues... and I can't fricking wait.... night all

 

[ComUtoR]

Come this May, I will be a Trainee Guard with GWR..... and the learning continues... and I can't fricking wait.... night all

Good night and good luck.

Welcome to this weird and wonderful place we call home.

 

[43066]

We are both looking at this from different ends of the telescope..... I am currently employed by a University to guide apprentices though their training programmes and have previously worked in an NHS Education Dept recruiting and supporting Apprentices (young and old, those already in jobs who are furthering their carers and getting a qualification and and those starting out on a new career path either straight from school or mature) NHS or TOC the principles are exactly the same, they have to be, its called the Apprenticeship Standards

Training offered under the “apprenticeship” scheme is exactly the same as was previously offered, bar apparently having to evidence some English and IT skills (IIRC) which many applicants already far exceed, and are basically irrelevant to the job anyway if they don’t.

By using the levy to train, drivers is perfectly acceptable, their is plenty of cash in the levy, yes it does save the TOC some money, but its also money that they have to put in, its not free money if they don't claim it back its lost to them...... no young people are being deprived an apprenticeship due to this..... One of my Apprentices is 56.....

But the money taken by the TOCs (which are ultimately government backed) could be better used by small businesses, who can’t pay into the scheme, to train up 18yos.

I am currently employed by a University to guide apprentices though their training programmes

Come this May, I will be a Trainee Guard with GWR..... and the learning continues... and I can't fricking wait.... night all

Welcome to the fold!

It’ll be funny if they insist on putting you through an apprenticeship .

 

[wobman]

I know of a group at the toc that I work for that are qualified drivers, it's far cheaper and quicker to recruit qualified drivers. They don't have the rules etc to learn its just traction and routes for them.

Plus once with a DI trainees have 240hrs to reach but qualified drivers don't they just learn core routes. Qualified drivers are then pqa drivers once productive aswell.

I think tocs have targets to hit regarding apprentices and trainees but they tend to prefer qualified drivers but it depends on the depots having vacancies.

 

[alex888]

You will find that pretty much every company that pays into the levy uses the levy in that way, NHS TOCs NR Openreach, Councils etc.... Correct me if I am wrong but people are getting the opportunity to learn a skill and gain employment and get a wage for it and vacancies are being filled..... Young people are benefiting from these apprenticeships and all the companies I have just listed above are currently recruiting school leavers (its Apprenticeship week)

And if your talking the about old fashioned indentured 5 year apprenticeships, they went a long time ago.

hi do you know what age limit you have to be to apply for these/what companies are actually hiring for them?

Firstly apologies if this has been discussed else where or in the past.

For a number of years now majority of TOCs and FOCs are going down the apprenticeship route for hiring drivers - from where I live there are about 6 TOCs Inc OAO who have hired apprenticeships trainees over Qualified drivers over the last 2-3 years. Which may i add is a fantastic opportunity for those wanting to break into the industry straight to a Driver. However I do wonder where does this leave Qualified Train Drivers who let's say may want to move to another company for what ever there reasons may be. From my experience getting your key and finally making it to a Driver is a hard process and now moving TOCs may now provide a harder aspiration. I wonder what others thoughts are on will there ever be opportunities opening up for Qualified Train drivers to be hired in from other TOCs in the future or will apprenticeship positions be the way forward and many will find it extremely difficult moving TOCs and as far as I am aware Qualified Drivers are NOT eligibleto apply for trainee positions if they so wish - Never say never I suppose, but how hard would a move actually be.

Cheers in advance.

hi do you have a list of what tocs have been using the apprenticeship scheme?

 

[michael74]

hi do you know what age limit you have to be to apply for these/what companies are actually hiring for them?

Hi, I don't. I currently (starting with GWR as a conductor in May...) work for a University supporting Healthcare Apprentices. Their is no upper age limit for apprenticeships, one of mine if in his late 50s