Question about Liverpool South Parkway to Hove SN&LM Advance ticket 01/05/15

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by gray1404, 26 Apr 2015.

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  1. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Booked this ticket at £7.25 yesterday:
    http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?...ert=on&flow=1&multi=1&fare=0&rte=7779&tkt=SCV

    I do have 2 questions about the tickets I’ve been issued with: -

    My 01/05/15 itinerary is as follows:
    11.44 Liverpool South Parkway to Stafford 12.39 LM
    12.56 Stafford to Milton Keynes Central 14.14 LM
    15.13 Milton Keynes Central to East Croydon 17.00 SN
    17.11 East Croydon to Hove 18.00 SN

    I have however only been issued with Mandatory Reservation Coupons for the first to trains as far as MKC. The route on this Advance ticket is “SOUTHERN &LONMID” So between MKC and Hove am I wondering about taking alternative trains so as to potentially cut down my overall journey time given I have no more Mandatory Reservations.

    (1) Would I be free to remain on the LM train that I’m on already to MKC (arriving at 14.14 and departing at 14.15) as far as London Euston then travel, at my own expense, to Victoria (as the ticket does not have a Maltase + on it) to catch a SO service to Hove? If I MUST get off at MKC, I notice there is a frequent LM service to EUS so could I simply get the next train then do, again, as above?

    I do want to get this one right because I do not want any problems doing this either at the barriers in London and I also notice on LM services that run non-stop between MKC and EUS they often do another full ticket check on departure from MKC (often following a crew change).

    (2) Does anyone know if the LM services from Stafford to Euston often arrive at MKC a bit early, perhaps though recovery time in the schedule? I notice my service is booked to arrive at 14.14 but there is actually the previous SN service at 14.13 which I could get to say Clapham Junction for a Hove service. (an hour before my above itinerary). I’m wondering if it might be perhaps possible to rush across the station and make this. If it is likely that the LM service from Stafford may arrive early has anyone any ideas of the platforms they normally use for my arriving and departing trains?

    Thanks so much for your help guys!
     
    Last edited: 27 Apr 2015
  2. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    You could do the second thing (were it possible) but not the first thing
     
  3. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    The fare shows as a Southern + connections, 'booked trains only'. That seems to tie you to the Southern services south of Milton Keynes. The fact SN don't do seat reservations (and LM do) doesn't change that AFAICS.

    Isn't the whole point of this fare that you avoid London Terminals by using the WLL via Kensington Olympia? If you can optionally travel on LM via Euston that would seem to defeat the whole point of the fare surely?
     
  4. Techniquest

    Techniquest Veteran Member

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    It is very unusual for the LM Crewe to Euston services to arrive early, you'll be lucky to arrive on time to be fair!

    Normally you'll arrive on platform 4 and Southern trains depart from platform 2 or platform 2A. Even if you arrived at say 1412 by some miracle, you'd never make it to the 1413, unless you're Usain Bolt and even he may struggle!

    There's several places to eat and drink just outside the station in Milton Keynes, included are Costa and Subway, as well as a Marks and Spencer. The hour will fly by, and you can always just hang around on the platform and people watch or watch trains flying by on one of the busiest sectors of the WCML.
     
  5. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Looking at the last week on realtimetrains, it arrived at 1413 once, ontime twice and 2-3 minutes late twice. It has only come from Rugby as the previous stop so I wouldn't expect much padding at that stage of the journey.
     
  6. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    I've always found it strange that the advances are not offered via London. The walk-up tickets for Southern and LM Only are, and both operators offer London advances otherwise. The long wait at MK is probably a good reason to go via Birmingham or change at Watford Jn next time!

    Also by the way, the TOC code for Southern is SN, not SO :)
     
  7. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Looking at the last couple of weeks, there have been a couple of occasions when the LM service was pulling in slightly early at 1413, which is the same time the Southern service was departing. The Southern service is more often a few seconds early than a few seconds late. Even if it was cross-platform, you'd have almost no chance. As it's not cross-platform, your only chance is if there is severe disruption to Southern services causing the train to depart late.
     
  8. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Does anyone know how I would formally look up the Permitted Routes in the Rail Routing Guide on this one. If I could have that information (and following a chat with Yorkie last night), I'd feel confidant going via EUS and VIC (using my Oyster on LU) if its a permitted route. Can someone look this up for me and give me the info?

    I've tried looking it up myself between the Hunts Cross Group (LPY) and Liverpool Group (LIV) to the Brighton Group (HOV) but think I'm only getting the details on the Any Permitted Route tickets rather then the Permitted Routes on the SN&LM Advance.
     
  9. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    Advance tickets do not use the routeing guide as most ticket types do - you go the route of the ticket you've got.
     
  10. CyrusWuff

    CyrusWuff Established Member

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    To expand on that a bit: For the ticket held to be valid via London, the OP would need to have "reservations" all the way through to Euston and from Victoria to Hove...which they don't.
     
  11. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    I disagree. Where travel is on "appropriate connecting trains", rather than a specific booked train, travel must be constrained to permitted routes only.
     
  12. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    But there are occasions where an Advance ticket will reserve you onto a train on which you must travel up to a point that is not on a permitted route. It's all very well saying you must continue your journey using the ubiquitous 'appropriate connecting trains' along permitted routes - but you might need to get back to one first! This is particularly the case with double-backs.
     
  13. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    I'm aware of the particular cases you're thinking of - the issue there is that the booking engine thinks the route it's reserved you onto is permitted. It's still checking the routing guide, just getting the wrong results.
     
  14. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I think this is an industry wide issue now, that for certain trains without real seat reservations, they are showing the reservations symbol in the timetable and issuing reservation tickets with the coach and seat both marked as ** - and doing this just for advance tickets as a way of putting a limit on the quota for a said service.

    I've checked the the trains out of MKC and all except one LM per hour have "reservations for advance tickets." As do the SN serices out of London Victoria - excpet for the handful of SN services out of London Bridge they run to Hove each evening (the first of which is actually the 18:00 arrival I'm on anyway, joining at East Croydon). So even if I was to either stay on the train to Euston or wait for the next "non reservations" LM service from MKC to EUS, I'd still be faced with the issue with not having a reservation ticket for the SN service.

    I think, to conlude on this, it is a quesiton of mind set. I need to tell myself here: I have paid just a mere £7.25 (£14.50 round trip) for a round trip ticket from Merseyside to the South Coast and back (£13.35 of that was paid for with a RTV) - so to avoid any conflict and problems just 1. tell myself I'm getting in effect, a free ride on a line I've never traveled on before and 2. just stick to the print out of connections and times the system came up with (as per my first post) 3. I like trains and traveling on them so enjoy the day and see the whole thing as a relaxing day out :)
     
    Last edited: 27 Apr 2015
  15. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    Great attitude - though if there's any hope of catching the 14:13 then you'd better sprint for it! :P
     
  16. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Am I right in saying that MKC is a gated station and when you are using an Advance ticket you are not allowed to exit the station, just change trains, otherwise it could be seen as a break of journey, which is not allowed on this ticket type?

    If so, it looks like my option is to people watch and enjoy the WCML. A little spot of lunch would have been nice during that hour though :(

    PermitToTravel: yes, I think there's little hope of that train arriving with enough time to catch the earlier train - due to the fact it is booked to stop at Rugby.
     
    Last edited: 27 Apr 2015
  17. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    If you ask the staff I'm sure no one would say anything about letting you out to get food or await your next train outside.
     
  18. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    Use of station facilities does not constitute break of journey. The retail outlets at MKC are outside the gate line and I wouldn't anticipate you'll have a problem being through.

    I doubt very much if there'll be anyone checking whether or not you leave the station building to pop to M&S next door...
     
  19. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    The 16.57 ex London Bridge, forming the 17.11 ex East Croydon to Hove arr. 18.00 SN
    is this likely to be a jam packed service this Friday 1/5/15 and am I likely to have trouble boarding this service at East Croydon? How many coaches is this service normally booked for?
     
    Last edited: 28 Apr 2015
  20. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    That is going to be one busy train! If it isn't spotted here by sarahj or anyone else who either works for Southern or has recently ridden that service, it might be tricky to find out. If that is the case you could try the Allocations, Diagrams and Timetables forum.
     
  21. James Wake

    James Wake Member

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    That train (1711) is normally 8 coaches I believe and is quite busy. The normal splitting train (the 1653) in the peak only is an 8 car Hastings service. The next Littlehampton after that is the 1722 from Clapham Junction (1733 from East Croydon). There is a 1642 Clapham Junction to Brighton which you may be able to make off the train from Milton Keynes at Clapham Junction, changing there for either the 1745 or 1753 to Hove.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    PS I commute by Southern daily from Clapham Junction to Three Bridges, so know the busy trains quite well.
     
  22. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Hi James, It sounds like that 1642 from Clapham Junction to Brighton will work well. Is that service not as busy as the 1711 ex East Croydon? I notice the 1642 is not reservable for the pruposes of advance tickets either so I should not have any problems there. However the 17.45 and 17.53 Brighton to Hove are reservable for advance tickets so that could cause a problem.
     
  23. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Why has this cropped up so many times lately? Yes, theoretically it might do, if your guard is literally Hariyhandedfool (which isn't possible, that I know of). But on the very slim chance that there is a ticket check, especially unlikely if it is very busy, but its very unlikely to matter as the reservation status of the train doesn't form part of the contract for using an Advance ticket (other than that you must travel on trains for which you have a reservation coupon).
     
  24. James Wake

    James Wake Member

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    Perhaps sarahj may be able to advise us here? The 1642 Brighton is a 12 car, still busy, but I reckon you should be able to find a seat somewhere
     
  25. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Yes, hopefully I'll find a seat! :) However the 17.45 and 17.53 Brighton to Hove are reservable for advance tickets so that could cause a problem?
     
  26. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    No, it won't.
     
  27. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I caught the 10.43 ME FBY to SPY today. It arrived 1 down, which is just as well because I was 30 seconds late onto the platform. I connected onto LM at LPY no problem at 11.44 to Stafford. No problem catching the 12.56 to MKC. I spoke to the guard on that service. He said I'd be totally fine to stay on his train to EUS and go to VIC as long as I 1. paid my own fare on the Underground and 2. made sure I did catch SN services. So thats exactly what I did. Arrived I EUS and walked off the platform, no barriers. Decided to catch the Bus to VIC as wanted to try one of the new route masters. Used my advance ticket as per post 1, all the way (expect for the bus bit and split ticket at LPY from FBY).

    The guard on the LM service from Stafford was really nice and helpful!

    Caught a SN semi-fast to Brighton and a few minutes connection to Hove. Arrived 1 hour early. No ticket checks on the SN services and no problems at the gatelines at either VIC or Hove. I was really happy with that.

    Just wanted to thank you guys for all your help and advise! It was really enjoyable journey.

    Was I lucky today or would I be able to do the same again in the future as I shall be booking onto exactly the same trains again later this month?
     
    Last edited: 1 May 2015
  28. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    I think you were fortunate today and you cannot guarantee that travelling via London will be without incident in future.
     
  29. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    I think you can if you ask permission and it is granted. The thing is... LM Crewe guards don't sign south of MK - do MK crews sign as far north as Stafford? If there is a crew change you may then encounter problems with the whole having asked before boarding thing (although in my opinion, that doesn't actually make a difference).
     
  30. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Depending on the precise ownership of bits of the building/pavement, you may well be on Railway property anyway!

    But I have never been refused access through a gateline for the purpose of using facilities in the station, nor to "pop out to the shops", nor for any other reason whatsoever. If I was obviously terminating short to save money there may be an objection, but that is clearly not the case here.
     
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