questions about DB ECx

[Stephen Lee]

I wondered if the coaches can really be used with Class 101 and 218s as mentioned in the following quote from Wikipedia:

Instead of the supplied Talgo locomotive, a diesel locomotive or another electric locomotive can be used. The wagons will be connected via the single-axle running gear customary for Talgo trains and consequently have a Talgo-typical short car body length in order to comply with the maximum axle load.

Also another question, will it be end of the line of DB IC coaches running to Dagebüll Mole after the arrival of ECx Talgo....... and as 25kV option is reserved so I wondered if it can be fitted to serve Denmark

 

[hexagon789]

I wondered if the coaches can really be used with Class 101 and 218s as mentioned in the following quote from Wikipedia:

Also another question, will it be end of the line of DB IC coaches running to Dagebüll Mole after the arrival of ECx Talgo....... and as 25kV option is reserved so I wondered if it can be fitted to serve Denmark

The outer ends of Talgo coach sets have conventional drawgear so can be hauled by any locomotive.

 

[Stephen Lee]

The outer ends of Talgo coach sets have conventional drawgear so can be hauled by any locomotive.

but if it is possible to do it in push-pull operation?

 

[hexagon789]

but if it is possible to do it in push-pull operation?

With a loco either end?

 

[Stephen Lee]

With a loco either end?

I mean using a single locomotive, a control car with duplicate controls is used when pushing.

 

[hexagon789]

I mean using a single locomotive, a control car with duplicate controls is used when pushing.

They (Talgo) have manufactured sets with integral control car/driving trailers as part of the set. The second series Talgos used on the Amtrak Cascades has an integrated control car.

The older series uses converted former locomotives as a control car, so I would assume that with the correct wiring there is no reason such an arrangement wouldn't be possible in Europe if it was required.

 

[Stephen Lee]

They (Talgo) have manufactured sets with integral control car/driving trailers as part of the set. The second series Talgos used on the Amtrak Cascades has an integrated control car.

The older series uses converted former locomotives as a control car, so I would assume that with the correct wiring there is no reason such an arrangement wouldn't be possible in Europe if it was required.

OK, i wondered what classification will the Talgo Travca locos of ECx be used and if the Talgo coaches can be used with 101s/218s or even 245s

 

[XAM2175]

i wondered what classification will the Talgo Travca locos of ECx be used

The classification will be assigned by the Eisenbahn-Bundesamt when they are submitted for approval. I seem to remember that a prototype for a previous model of Travca locomotive was placed in series 130, but the new ones may well received a different number.

if the Talgo coaches can be used with 101s/218s or even 245s

Because the Talgo sets have conventional couplers at each end it will be possible for them to be hauled by almost any locomotive. Push-pull operation using the Talgo cab-car will probably be possible with newer digitally-controlled locomotives like the series 101, 146, 182, and 245. Series 218 locomotives will be able to haul the Talgo sets, but the Talgo cab-car will probably not be able to control them.

 

[DanNCL]

The cab cars on the existing IC sets can't control a 218, when a 218 is used to haul those sets between Itzehoe and Westerland (Sylt) the loco has to be leading at all times, meaning the loco is attached to the driving trailer in one direction. I would assume this is how it'll work with the ECx sets on the Sylt route too. It's less clear what'll happen with the electric Talgo locos on the Sylt services, whether they'll be left behind in Itzehoe as the 101s on the current stock are, or if they'll be dragged to Sylt with the carriages in the same way as Class 91+Mark 4 drags worked in the UK.

Apart from between Itzehoe and Westerland (Sylt), the Talgo locos will be able to power the ECx sets everywhere that they're planned to operate, so there'll be limited opportunity other than for rescue purposes for any other electric locos to work with an ECx set, even though in theory a 101/102/146/147/182 would be compatible with the driving trailers.

 

[Stephen Lee]

The classification will be assigned by the Eisenbahn-Bundesamt when they are submitted for approval. I seem to remember that a prototype for a previous model of Travca locomotive was placed in series 130, but the new ones may well received a different number.


Because the Talgo sets have conventional couplers at each end it will be possible for them to be hauled by almost any locomotive. Push-pull operation using the Talgo cab-car will probably be possible with newer digitally-controlled locomotives like the series 101, 146, 182, and 245. Series 218 locomotives will be able to haul the Talgo sets, but the Talgo cab-car will probably not be able to control them.

is it possible for modification?

 

[317666]

The cab cars on the existing IC sets can't control a 218, when a 218 is used to haul those sets between Itzehoe and Westerland (Sylt) the loco has to be leading at all times, meaning the loco is attached to the driving trailer in one direction. I would assume this is how it'll work with the ECx sets on the Sylt route too. It's less clear what'll happen with the electric Talgo locos on the Sylt services, whether they'll be left behind in Itzehoe as the 101s on the current stock are, or if they'll be dragged to Sylt with the carriages in the same way as Class 91+Mark 4 drags worked in the UK.

They can, the IC to Fehmarn-Burg runs push-pull with a 218. From my understanding, what they can't do is control two locos propelling at once, so as the Westerland IC requires two locos it needs to be hauled in both directions.

 

[duesselmartin]

A Talgo question. In the past Talgo sets had seperate generator van for aircon/lights ect. Why was that and am I right in assuming this won't be the case here?
Martin

 

[AlexNL]

but if it is possible to do it in push-pull operation?

The Germans have standardised protocols for push-pull operation, what they call Wendezugsteurung, which allows almost anything to work with each other. I would imagine that DB have explicitly required the Talgo stuff to also communicate using these protocols.

 

[Stephen Lee]

The Germans have standardised protocols for push-pull operation, what they call Wendezugsteurung, which allows almost anything to work with each other. I would imagine that DB have explicitly required the Talgo stuff to also communicate using these protocols.

The question is if the ECx will install it

 

[Richard Scott]

They can, the IC to Fehmarn-Burg runs push-pull with a 218. From my understanding, what they can't do is control two locos propelling at once, so as the Westerland IC requires two locos it needs to be hauled in both directions.

These need to be ZWS fitted, I thought, which only a few Niebuell based 218s are (think they are ex Stendal allocated locos such as 218307/321/322)?

 

[pcrail]

For the Talgo train, the 245 diesels are foreseen. The train can operate in push-pull mode.

 

[Stephen Lee]

For the Talgo train, the 245 diesels are foreseen. The train can operate in push-pull mode.

Do you mean operating under push-pull mode with the Talgo Coaches? Anyway I remembered some BBD-IC2 are tested with 245s for operating in non-electrified routes

 

[pcrail]

Yes, AFAIK push-pull mode is foreseen. BBD-IC2 can definitely be used together with IC2, but I don't know if this was done commercially done. The issue is, that there are still ATP issues with the later series of IC2s. See the post about the Talent 3 in Austria.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Yes, AFAIK push-pull mode is foreseen. BBD-IC2 can definitely be used together with IC2, but I don't know if this was done commercially done. The issue is, that there are still ATP issues with the later series of IC2s. See the post about the Talent 3 in Austria.

what is AFAIK?

 

[XAM2175]

what is AFAIK?

"As far as I know"

 

[btrs]

I think the ECx sets will be operated the same way as Railjets: consisting of semi-permanent formations, only locos will be changed out as with conventional loco-hauled sets. But cars will remain in fixed formation unless operating conditions dictate otherwise (i.e. lengthening or shortening sets for some type of services, accidents, ..).

Look at the IC2: they are also operated in this way. They have a "Tz" (Triebzug) number like ICE-sets. NS have also tried this formula using so-called "stamnummer" back in the day when they operated ICK and ICL coaches, but once they started IC Direct operations it was quietly dropped.

Also, since it is planned to operate the "sets" only with the designated locos in push-pull I guess they will be equipped with WTB only and not with ZWS. Sets to Denmark operated in pool with the DSB ones will not have cab-cars and not be affected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the ECx sets will be operated the same way as Railjets: consisting of semi-permanent formations, only locos will be changed out as with conventional loco-hauled sets. But cars will remain in fixed formation unless operating conditions dictate otherwise (i.e. lengthening or shortening sets for some type of services, accidents, ..)..

Yes, they absolutely will - because Talgo sets are basically unpowered multiple units, there are only buffers and drawgear at the outer ends. The actual coaches are articulated over a single axle.

 

[AlexNL]

Look at the IC2: they are also operated in this way. They have a "Tz" (Triebzug) number like ICE-sets. NS have also tried this formula using so-called "stamnummer" back in the day when they operated ICK and ICL coaches, but once they started IC Direct operations it was quietly dropped.

Not quite. The rakes of ICR coaches which NS use for services on the high speed line are operated in a fixed formation. They have their own unit number, if one coach is broken the entire consist gets pulled from service.

The same now goes for coaches on the IC Amsterdam - Hannover - Berlin, these too have been assigned formation numbers which apply to the entire consist.

 

[DanielB]

Not quite. The rakes of ICR coaches which NS use for services on the high speed line are operated in a fixed formation. They have their own unit number, if one coach is broken the entire consist gets pulled from service.

And to add to that: operations of IC-direct became even more similar to IC2 and Railjet that way. The former "stamnummer" which was used with ICK and ICL (and also ICR before the high speed operations) actually didn't apply to the whole formation, but applied to short formations of 1 to 3 coaches which then combined to a complete train. Though in principle it had the same function: making sure all required coach-types were present when a broken one needed to be exchanged.
(By the way: Even the DDZ and VIRM stock of NS has a "stamnummer", even though its not loco-hauled)

 

[MisterT]

While this press release (in German only) isn't about the ECx in itself, it has a tidbit of information about the ECx: it will be renamed to "ICE L":

Durch den weiteren Zulauf von ICE 4-Triebzügen, dem ICE 3neo sowie dem ICE L (bisher ECx) kommen so viele neue Fahrzeuge in die Flotte, dass wir die Ex-Metropolitan-Züge zusätzlich nicht mehr benötigen, zumal ihre Kapazität für die wachsende Nachfrage nicht mehr ausreicht.

With this message, it's implied that the connection Amsterdam - Berlin will be 'upgraded' to an ICE connection I guess, which is... well, not really what I would call it. The trains have even run as interregio trains in the past, so unless they change the stopping pattern to a few big cities only and upgrade the whole line to a high speed line, I don't really think that this one deserves the name 'ICE' - but I guess it's better marketing than 'just' an InterCity.

 

[duesselmartin]

so just as the IC was downgraded with the Bombardier Twindexx sets, the ICE will be watered down.
Multiple voltage ICE4 would have been better than an additional small Talgo fleet.

 

[Austriantrain]

Multiple voltage ICE4 would have been better than an additional small Talgo fleet.

Wouldn’t they be quite a bit more expensive?

 

[DanielB]

Wouldn’t they be quite a bit more expensive?

ICE-L is specifically meant for services with lower maximum speed (<250 km/h) to get less requirements to comply with. So additional ICE-4 would be a bit overengineered indeed.

Afaik the ICE3neo would come in multiple voltage capability, replacing the ICE3M on international services. Then the ICE-4 fleet is only needed within Germany and on international services which don't need to change voltage.

 

[duesselmartin]

ICE4 could use its 250kph in the Hannover to Berlin stretch. I just think calling a loco set ICE is fooling people. Then they should use the EC brand.

 

[MisterT]

Both the ICE 1 and 2 series are loco hauled, so I don't see any difference in that regard.

Apologies for double posting, but it seems like there is a new look for the ICE L as well, so not just a new name.





The images above are being shared on social media, but unfortunately I can't find an exact source. This person gives a comparison between the old and the new renders: https://twitter.com/Cas_Plz/status/1428735588295925769