Questions raised over Southern rail franchise

[Chrisgr31]

i do agree that branches like caterham and tattenham could and should just have shuttles, which means more trains could then run up the redhill line.

yes, tattenham and caterham people would have to cross over at purley, but...........

In days gone by on most services Uckfield line passengers used to have to change at Oxted. Passenger numbers since the direct service was introduced shows how much passangers like the direct service (and the new trains).

Problem with changing is it gives added chances of something going wrong, and you invariably end up at a station with little to do whilst waiting.

As regards the meeting it appears that in reality nothing happened. The only way the service will improve is for their to be more staff and greater slack built in tot he timetable. The former costs money and the latter means less trains running. So hands up those who are prepared to pay higher fares for less services?

 

[Clip]

So only doctors can criticise doctors and only MPs can criticise MPs?

.

Maybe if you read my post in the context it was made then we could discuss but by singling it out it makes little sense now.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

People rather foolishly think TfL taking over is the answer to all issues. It's far from it. Who ever runs the trains will encounter the same delays and issues. It will still be network rails infrastructure and TfL trains will still be subject to delays as they'll be sharing the congested over-capacity tracks with Thameslink and southern mainline (or whoever the mainline TOC is in that area) services.

I imagine TfL running the services makes sense from the point of view of having one organization running the metro network - which probably means it would be treated more as a single network.

There would also be a significant advantage to people without travelcards because of the thing that you get charged more on Oyster Pay-as-you go if your journey involves both National-Rail-operated and TfL-operated trains, compared to making a comparable journey that only uses one or the other. That causes lots of fare anomalies - I personally quite often use slightly sub-optimal routes to get where I need to go in order to keep my journey to National-Rail-only or TfL-only. If TfL took over all the metro routes, than that problem would basically go away.

And as others have said, the likelihood that TfL would invest in services beyond current franchise obligations is a likely big win.

But I agree with you that TfL running things is not going to solve most reliability and congestion/track-related issues.

I also would be slightly nervous because of the tendency for most things that TfL touches to end up with uncomfortable longitudinal seating everywhere, although that's obviously a minor issue compared to the advantages of TfL running things.

 

[physics34]

In days gone by on most services Uckfield line passengers used to have to change at Oxted. Passenger numbers since the direct service was introduced shows how much passangers like the direct service (and the new trains).

Problem with changing is it gives added chances of something going wrong, and you invariably end up at a station with little to do whilst waiting.

As regards the meeting it appears that in reality nothing happened. The only way the service will improve is for their to be more staff and greater slack built in tot he timetable. The former costs money and the latter means less trains running. So hands up those who are prepared to pay higher fares for less services?

yep it seems nothing much came of the meeting other than... wait til 2018 and we'll see how it goes!

 

[talldave]

yep it seems nothing much came of the meeting other than... wait til 2018 and we'll see how it goes!

Well what did anyone expect? The MPs just like to hear the sound of their own voices in what for them is a natural progression from their school debating society. A few sound bites of "concern" put out to the media and it's job done.

And if there were any quick fixes, GTR would surely have implemented them already.

The biggest problem for GTR's customers is that GTR management have no idea what it's like to be one of their customers. They don't have to use their own useless website to buy tickets, or grapple with one of their useless TVMs either. They don't have to negotiate with their poorly trained staff over the validity of an Off Peak ticket. They don't have to suffer the inconvenience of a ticket barrier that someone couldn't be arsed to program with the correct time for Railcard discounted tickets. And I'm sure they've never experienced the exasperation of emailing their own customer services department and discovering that they're dealing with someone who can't read and knows f*** all about stations, trains and tickets.

 

[hwl]

The biggest problem for GTR's customers is that GTR management have no idea what it's like to be one of their customers. They don't have to use their own useless website to buy tickets, or grapple with one of their useless TVMs either. They don't have to negotiate with their poorly trained staff over the validity of an Off Peak ticket. They don't have to suffer the inconvenience of a ticket barrier that someone couldn't be arsed to program with the correct time for Railcard discounted tickets. And I'm sure they've never experienced the exasperation of emailing their own customer services department and discovering that they're dealing with someone who can't read and knows f*** all about stations, trains and tickets.

I'm over joyed at being able to use oyster to Gatwick on Wednesday instead of having to use a TVM's etc (especially on the return!)

 

[Stew998]

Does it matter what time you arrive at your destination? It matters what time you leave as you need to know when to get to the station by, but for bits like East Croydon to Victoria and London Bridge is a timetable really essential?

If we travel by car or bus we cant be sure to the minute what time we are going to arrive.

The reality of course is that the infamous train that was late every day is one of the last peak hour trains I seem to recall. As a result it does of course have the most likelihood of being affected by anything that has gone wrong earlier. There is so little slack in the peak hour timetable that recovery time is virtually non-existent.

The problem is Southern never make any effort to remind passengers of the good things they have done (I'll say it again the Uckfield line suffers from train failures, overcrowding etc because Southern have improved the service so much it has become popular). You dont hear Southern saying this, you didnt in advance of January last uear say "We are trying to squeeze as many trains in to London Bridge as possible as we dont want to cur services during the works, it may not work though" etc.

A lot of their issues are communication related

As a commuter from Mid-Sussex to London Bridge it does matter what time I arrive! I'm not too fussed whether I arrive on time or five minutes late but after that you begine to wonder if the TOC should not just be a bit more honest about realistic timings.

I regularly defend Southern against the accusations of my fellow travellers where problems are not of their making (eg the signalling problems at Hassocks and Balcombe this Monday). But it's a bit harder to defend when the train is full and standing for 50 minutes because Southern can't put together 12 carriages two days running (Tuesday and yesterday). And this is something that seems to happen about once a week on that particular service.

Communication is another issue:

- No reasons given for delays or other problems.
- Incessant apologies given (the other extreme).
- Indicator boards showing train has 12 cars until the moment before it arrives (presumably someone knew this when it left Eastbourne!)

Okay it's not the end of the world if a train is late or cancelled but if you've got up at the crack of dawn and done a long stressful day's work and are looking forward to getting home to the family the last thing you want to see is a packed concourse and almost every train delayed or cancelled. It's pretty frustrating whoever's fault it is and the TOC is first in the firing line rightly or wrongly. Whether any other TOC could do any better seems frankly doubtful to me.

Looking forward to 2018 and a fully functional London Bridge!

 

[Deepgreen]

It really does come down to how a TOC prioritises its works - Southern seem not to have planned anything properly - stock specification/acquisition (as far as that is in their hands), station maintenance, information provision, staff rostering, train maintenance (the number of train failures recently has been atrocious), etc. Southern are especially inept at responding to complaints with anything but a bland, stock reply which both fails to address the complaint and serves to aggravate the complainant further. Their passenger information provision is also abysmal, as is their response time to station equipment failures.

 

[neilm]

Stuck at three bridges because of a shortage of station staff to dispatch trains, how anyone can defend GTR is beyond me

 

[nottsnurse]

Maybe if you read my post in the context it was made then we could discuss but by singling it out it makes little sense now.

The context being (I believe, please correct me if I'm miles out) in simple terms,

"Ha, look at all these non-industry specialists offering their unqualified opinions, RailUK Forums is rife with them", or words to that effect.

So, are you a doctor or MP? Do you have opinions on the health service and/or political system?

 

[GodAtum]

It really does come down to how a TOC prioritises its works - Southern seem not to have planned anything properly - stock specification/acquisition (as far as that is in their hands), station maintenance, information provision, staff rostering, train maintenance (the number of train failures recently has been atrocious), etc. Southern are especially inept at responding to complaints with anything but a bland, stock reply which both fails to address the complaint and serves to aggravate the complainant further. Their passenger information provision is also abysmal, as is their response time to station equipment failures.

I find the lack of info regarding where 1st class is very bad on both Southern and FCC. With the new Thameslink trains most of the time i am in the wrong place.

 

[Barnabus]

Lots of complaining on here about Southern's 'lack of information' to passengers.

So in a perfect world what would you want the information to be?

Bearing in mind the limits of technology and infrastructure at stations.

 

[sarahj]

Lots of complaining on here about Southern's 'lack of information' to passengers.

So in a perfect world what would you want the information to be?

Bearing in mind the limits of technology and infrastructure at stations.

Perhaps something that removes the headphones of the passenger and tells them information to them personally, one by one.

Sorry if that came out wrong but you tell a group, or the train the latest info that you have, but someone with headphones goes, well I never heard anything.
If I have info I tell it.

True story: working a train, delayed, pain in the bum. Station A, punter comes up, thanks, you kept us informed, we knew what was going on. Station B. punter comes up, not enough info, we had no idea. :roll:

 

[neilm]

Lots of complaining on here about Southern's 'lack of information' to passengers.

So in a perfect world what would you want the information to be?

Bearing in mind the limits of technology and infrastructure at stations.

Well they could bring back journey check to start with, which every other London TOC has.

Southern have added a journey check style page on their website in the last week...., but it is not on the mobile website and you cannot create an account for email alerts like you could with journey check.

 

[jimbo99]

Lots of complaining on here about Southern's 'lack of information' to passengers.

So in a perfect world what would you want the information to be?

Bearing in mind the limits of technology and infrastructure at stations.

Well three examples from East Croydon:

1) On the concourse there are 5 panels that give full departure information and a panel that gives "subsequent departures", showing destination only. The trains with the earliest scheduled departures are shown first on the 5 panels. The other night there were 5 trains running very late - these "blocked" the panels. So trains were coming and going without any (clear) information on the concourse as to their stopping patterns. I'm sure some on the concourse wouldn't have appreciated that "subsequent" departures would be leaving before "next departures". It should be relatively simple to prioritise on the basis of expected times of departure.

2) There are three barrier lines and often 3 staff. How nice it would be if there was one member of staff per barrier to assist people - I'm sure that's the intention. More often than not, they are in a huddle at one end of the main barrier chatting to each other. If people have trouble at one of the side entrance barriers they are left on their own. When I needed help myself, they obviously resented the interruption in their private conversation. The bloke sauntered over with an annoyed look on his face. Surely it's simple management issue to ensure the staff are looking out for passengers on each barrier?

3) There is presently a very stupid poster at East Croydon about Oyster at Gatwick:

"No time to queue?
Use Oyster pay-as-you-go or Contactless between Gatwick and London." It then gives the single fares between Gatwick and London - which of course are considerably more expensive than those between Croydon and London. Totally misleading. Passengers at Croydon are unlikely to be interested in travelling Gatwick to London. They travel to either Gatwick or London. They want to know that they can travel to Gatwick on their Oyster and ideally what the fare is. It's been there days. A bloke with a marker pen could have added the Croydon - Gatwick fares.


Not really expensive to fix the above, is it?

 

[Barnabus]

Well they could bring back journey check to start with, which every other London TOC has.

Southern have added a journey check style page on their website in the last week...., but it is not on the mobile website and you cannot create an account for email alerts like you could with journey check.

I'm told JourneyCheck Alerts are coming.

 

[neilm]

I'm told JourneyCheck Alerts are coming.

You mean coming back , as they use to offer it but killed it off in late 2013. Great idea that was getting rid of it...

 

[talldave]

Lots of complaining on here about Southern's 'lack of information' to passengers.

So in a perfect world what would you want the information to be?

Bearing in mind the limits of technology and infrastructure at stations.

I tried to inform Southern by email that some of their automated announcements at East Croydon are misleading about which coaches to use on 12 coach trains for destinations with short platforms. I got the usual cut & pasted drivel that ignored my email and after one further attempt gave up. Their customer services emails are processed by delinquent morons who cannot even read English. In several years of being a Southern customer I never had a straight answer to a question.

 

[Via Bank]

Lots of complaining on here about Southern's 'lack of information' to passengers.

So in a perfect world what would you want the information to be?

Bearing in mind the limits of technology and infrastructure at stations.

Perhaps, during times of disruption, actually announcing at Victoria when a train is available for boarding? Or using the big screens above the platforms to actually display the departure platform?

I know several people who have recently been travelling late at night after or during disruption, and found the information provision to be wholly inadequate, with trains departing Victoria with no announcements, no CIS, no visible staff - and I am given to understand this is a routine occurrence. There is no excuse for this at all.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Information that Southern could supply and is wanted is potentially relatively simple. Information that is helpful and accurate.

The comment about emails above is so correct. I was paid £50 in vouchers last year because they acknowledged that their email responses were inaccurate and didnt answer the question. I hadnt asked for compensation, didnt want compensation, just raised it on their passenger forum as an example. They went away checked their email history and came back agreeing!

However things have not improved the other week after we were kicked off at Oxted I sent an email asking 4 questions about the incident. In their response they did not acknowledge any of my questions, they certainly didnt answer any of them, not even to say we dont know or we cant tell you, and the response gave the impression it was sent before being ended as there was no proper ending.

Their twitter feed is almost useless these days and its not the fault of the staff who are generally helpful but they are no longer allowed to tweet useful information about cancellations, short forms, late running. Instead of which we have to follow southermalachi who not only tweets this information but also manages to answer specific questions about services faster than the official team.

Now I know the official team have to answer queries etc, but if they tweeted the info in the first place they wouldnt get as many questions and maybe they need one feed to tweet train service info and the other to deal with questions.

A problem which will go away is the one of short platforms on the Uckfield line. Its a particular issue with the 18.05 ex London Bridge as its 8 carriages and several platforms can only take 5 or 6 carriages. However there is absolutely no info about this at London Bridge. Its not announced until the train has left the station which is too late. Almost every day there are people unaware of the fact they cant get off without moving down the train, and several times a week some of them are overcarried.

I accept SarahJs comments about guards announcements, some of them are better about making announcements than others, also if you are in the carriage the guard is in (on the 171 class anyway) the announcement is usually inaudible - I guess to avoid feedback.

The website is horrible to navigate and the bits you do want on the move are not available on the mobile site.

On the other side the tweeter team do get a hell of a lot of abuse for issues from passengers and that just isnt fair. They are doing a job, doing what they have been told to do, supplying the info they are given, they cant supply info they dont have, they cant wave a magic wand and improve the service so they dont deserve the abuse they get.

 

[physics34]

Information that Southern could supply and is wanted is potentially relatively simple. Information that is helpful and accurate.

The comment about emails above is so correct. I was paid £50 in vouchers last year because they acknowledged that their email responses were inaccurate and didnt answer the question. I hadnt asked for compensation, didnt want compensation, just raised it on their passenger forum as an example. They went away checked their email history and came back agreeing!

However things have not improved the other week after we were kicked off at Oxted I sent an email asking 4 questions about the incident. In their response they did not acknowledge any of my questions, they certainly didnt answer any of them, not even to say we dont know or we cant tell you, and the response gave the impression it was sent before being ended as there was no proper ending.

Their twitter feed is almost useless these days and its not the fault of the staff who are generally helpful but they are no longer allowed to tweet useful information about cancellations, short forms, late running. Instead of which we have to follow southermalachi who not only tweets this information but also manages to answer specific questions about services faster than the official team.

Now I know the official team have to answer queries etc, but if they tweeted the info in the first place they wouldnt get as many questions and maybe they need one feed to tweet train service info and the other to deal with questions.

A problem which will go away is the one of short platforms on the Uckfield line. Its a particular issue with the 18.05 ex London Bridge as its 8 carriages and several platforms can only take 5 or 6 carriages. However there is absolutely no info about this at London Bridge. Its not announced until the train has left the station which is too late. Almost every day there are people unaware of the fact they cant get off without moving down the train, and several times a week some of them are overcarried.

I accept SarahJs comments about guards announcements, some of them are better about making announcements than others, also if you are in the carriage the guard is in (on the 171 class anyway) the announcement is usually inaudible - I guess to avoid feedback.

The website is horrible to navigate and the bits you do want on the move are not available on the mobile site.

On the other side the tweeter team do get a hell of a lot of abuse for issues from passengers and that just isnt fair. They are doing a job, doing what they have been told to do, supplying the info they are given, they cant supply info they dont have, they cant wave a magic wand and improve the service so they dont deserve the abuse they get.

fully agree with your london bridge announcement comment. I think they are just lazy up there.

 

[Deepgreen]

I tried to inform Southern by email that some of their automated announcements at East Croydon are misleading about which coaches to use on 12 coach trains for destinations with short platforms. I got the usual cut & pasted drivel that ignored my email and after one further attempt gave up. Their customer services emails are processed by delinquent morons who cannot even read English. In several years of being a Southern customer I never had a straight answer to a question.

I couldn't agree more. I think that some or all TOCs use software that extracts key words from incoming e-mails and triggers responses based on those words. Even if this is apocryphal, it certainly seems believable, based on their output!

Southern have only very rarely provided me with anything helpful - and only then after I have insisted on an answer from the department responsible rather than the 'Customer Relations' area. However, don't forget that they fully understand how important good information is to their customers! Oh, and it is a legal requirement for every single response from them to apologise for the delay in replying even if (as has happened to me a few times) the reply came a day or two after I e-mailed them!

That's it - I've run out of exclamation marks.