Questions raised over Southern rail franchise

[coppercapped]

GTR got the 'job' on cost grounds and through the DfTs hatred of first group.

Citation needed. Assertions are not evidence.

GTR didn't get this contract based on any promises made in their bid.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Give me East Coast over Virgin anyday. There again, in my view, GNER were better than East Coast but they could not make things pay.

As for Southern/Thameslink/Gatwick Express/Govia, even they do not seem to know who they are so I won't even attempt to comment.

GNER made their franchise pay for many years. One could argue that GNER's problems were caused by a combination of an overbid for their second franchise and Sea Containers other financial problems.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

GTR got the 'job' on cost grounds and through the DfTs hatred of first group. GTR didn't get this contract based on any promises made in their bid.

Cost, certainly, but FirstGroup are not hated. They wanted to give them the West Coast.

 

[tony6499]

MPs make cheap soundbites because vociferous commuters pester them and demand they 'do something'.

If they didn't make cheap soundbites, people would criticise them with other cheap soundbites: lazy, overpaid and uninterested in the plight of the rail traveller etc.

Of course, not many MPs understand the full structural complexity of the railway. But later in the day they might be dealing with a health service issue, an education issue and defence policy. It's a big ask to expect a generalist on £70k pa to know everything about everything before venturing an opinion.

Some of their comments make me laugh , Peter Bottomley on his FB is classic, it's his governments policies that have led to the mess.

Nobody wants to say it's my fault and nobody will take the franchise from them either.

 

[HH]

Citation needed. Assertions are not evidence.

The FirstGroup bit is nonsense, but Govia did win on cost, and according to DfT, on quality as well*. I'm afraid that you won't find that information on any publicly available source however.

* Quality as defined by DfT and marked by DfT, which may not be (and probably isn't!) the same as what you (or I) would perceive as quality.

 

[A-driver]

The FirstGroup bit is nonsense, but Govia did win on cost, and according to DfT, on quality as well*. I'm afraid that you won't find that information on any publicly available source however.



* Quality as defined by DfT and marked by DfT, which may not be (and probably isn't!) the same as what you (or I) would perceive as quality.

It's not nonsense, Govia were 'encouraged' to bid as first were by far the front runners and the DfT at the time didn't want them in.

 

[455driver]

I wouldn't care if my train was a few minutes late occasionally, but when almost all Southern services you catch is a few mins late for weeks/months it is irritating.

Is that late on public timetable or late on working timetable?

As people whinge so much about the train being one minute late maybe its about time the railways started using the working timetable on all the timetables that way people could then moan about the train leaving at 20 past one hour, 23 minutes past the next hour, 22 minutes past the next hour etc etc.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The problem SN have is they're spread over such a large area and are meant to be local service and a medium distance operator and its resources have been stretched so thin, that the slightest thing makes it stretch to the point of something has to give.

It's time to cut back some of the extremities such as Southampton/Eastleigh which see regular terminations short at either Chichester, Havant or Fareham because of the delay and as such transferring the passengers onto SWT or GWR services at either Havant or Fratton.

It's better to have a smaller operating area and have the ability to provide a decent and consistent level of service than keep pushing things to breaking point and provide a fairly unreliable service which regularly runs late and causes inconvenience, not only in a local area, but because of the way their network is run, over a much larger sometimes unconnected area.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Is that late on public timetable or late on working timetable?

As people whinge so much about the train being one minute late maybe its about time the railways started using the working timetable on all the timetables that way people could then moan about the train leaving at 20 past one hour, 23 minutes past the next hour, 22 minutes past the next hour etc etc.

Does it matter what time you arrive at your destination? It matters what time you leave as you need to know when to get to the station by, but for bits like East Croydon to Victoria and London Bridge is a timetable really essential?

If we travel by car or bus we cant be sure to the minute what time we are going to arrive.

The reality of course is that the infamous train that was late every day is one of the last peak hour trains I seem to recall. As a result it does of course have the most likelihood of being affected by anything that has gone wrong earlier. There is so little slack in the peak hour timetable that recovery time is virtually non-existent.

The problem is Southern never make any effort to remind passengers of the good things they have done (I'll say it again the Uckfield line suffers from train failures, overcrowding etc because Southern have improved the service so much it has become popular). You dont hear Southern saying this, you didnt in advance of January last uear say "We are trying to squeeze as many trains in to London Bridge as possible as we dont want to cur services during the works, it may not work though" etc.

A lot of their issues are communication related

 

[LBSCR Times]

It's time to cut back some of the extremities such as Southampton/Eastleigh which see regular terminations short at either Chichester, Havant or Fareham because of the delay and as such transferring the passengers onto SWT or GWR services at either Havant or Fratton.

Yes, if either SWT or FGW were to provide a more frequent service.
But it comes to something when Southern provide more trains than either of the other two between Southampton and Fareham, irrespective of the reliability.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Yes, if either SWT or FGW were to provide a more frequent service.
But it comes to something when Southern provide more trains than either of the other two between Southampton and Fareham, irrespective of the reliability.

It's NOT a service if they're always running late and are constantly fouling up both SWT & GWR and/or terminating short. That's simply not acceptable, so to prevent the fouling up of other services, these get the chop, so to provide their core service area, with a better, more resilient service.

They only have Southampton for political dogma reasons, they're not a necessity.

 

[LBSCR Times]

They only have Southampton for political dogma reasons, they're not a necessity.

They are busy most of the time, and a considerable number of passengers are travelling to / from the east of Havant.
It was the same with the SWT Brighton to Basingstoke / Reading services when they ran, though since their withdrawal, traffic has increased considerably.

In any case, it is only the Victoria service that is unreliable, but that should improve now that the services do not run via Redhill.

 

[talldave]

......

A lot of their issues are communication related

Very true. Although a lack of communication is the main problem, when they do communicate it's often utter rubbish.

I'm still waiting for a response to my query about credit card details on their new ticketing website from last year - it'll never come, and in the meantime I've taken my business elsewhere (not that they care, of course).

But much as I loathe Southern, I don't agree with calls for them to be stripped of their franchise - I'm sure the outcome would be more shambolic. They just need a kick up the backside to address their issues of management, training and the "don't give a toss" culture.

 

[coppercapped]

It's not nonsense, Govia were 'encouraged' to bid as first were by far the front runners and the DfT at the time didn't want them in.

I repeat. Assertions are NOT evidence.

 

[physics34]

meeting on monday, so we'll see what comes of it.

 

[cjmillsnun]

meeting on monday, so we'll see what comes of it.

I have a very good idea of what will come of it.

A lot of hot air, and not much changing.

 

[plcd1]

Well, someone doesn't know what they are talking about. "..rebuilding work at London Bridge, engineering over Christmas, a recent signal failure..." are nothing to do with the Train Company.

As for the references to "Southern", there is no franchise nor Train Company of that name any more! While I'm sure some will see use of a now defunct franchise/company name as a moot point, I would expect an MP to get it right, so it makes me wonder what else they get wrong.

The performance of TSGN came up on BBC Sunday Politics London today. The MPs for Southwark (Labour) and Hendon (Tory) were on the show. Between the pair of them they had they no clue which company actually ran the franchise, they thought Thameslink was differently managed from Southern and Mr Coyle (Southwark MP) chucked in a gratuitous cheap shot about the "sunlight" incident at Lewisham which is a safety issue, occurs all over the place regardless of the operator and which is nothing to do with TSGN's performance. The pair of them just appeared completely clueless about the rail services operated in their constituencies. Oh and we had the customary "moan and whinge" from Chuka (I'm too scared to stand for Leader because of my private investment holdings) Umunna. :roll:

I hold little hope for a meaningful debate about TSGN's franchise performance if the above is indicative of the insight and knowledge of MPs whose constituencies are served by TSGN.

 

[LeeLivery]

Is that late on public timetable or late on working timetable?

As people whinge so much about the train being one minute late maybe its about time the railways started using the working timetable on all the timetables that way people could then moan about the train leaving at 20 past one hour, 23 minutes past the next hour, 22 minutes past the next hour etc etc.

Well I haven't checked. However if the Caterham train is publicised to depart Sydenham at xx22 or xx15 as it has been since December, then anything after that time is considered by passengers as late. Whether using the WTT at stations would make a difference is up for debate.

 

[ComUtoR]

Me, I'm a Socialist who wants to see railways renationalised. I would be happy for service levels to stay the same as they are, but without the public money being pushed into the hands of private companies.

How far in debt are Network Rail ?

If the railway was ever to be renationalised it would bleed this country dry.

 

[physics34]

Chaos again today, although it's Network Rails issue

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Chaos again today, although it's Network Rails issue

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14211286.Train_delays_until_at_least_10am_after_signalling_problem

 

[NSEFAN]

It's NOT a service if they're always running late and are constantly fouling up both SWT & GWR and/or terminating short. That's simply not acceptable, so to prevent the fouling up of other services, these get the chop, so to provide their core service area, with a better, more resilient service.

They only have Southampton for political dogma reasons, they're not a necessity.

Perhaps it's time to accept that giving everybody direct trains to London just isn't feasible if they also want service reliability, unless of course they want to pay for the redundancy to make it robust (extra staff, spare stock, etc) ?

 

[sarahj]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14211286.Train_delays_until_at_least_10am_after_signalling_problem

I start work in an hour. I don't want to go in now!!!

 

[physics34]

Perhaps it's time to accept that giving everybody direct trains to London just isn't feasible if they also want service reliability, unless of course they want to pay for the redundancy to make it robust (extra staff, spare stock, etc) ?

i do agree that branches like caterham and tattenham could and should just have shuttles, which means more trains could then run up the redhill line.

yes, tattenham and caterham people would have to cross over at purley, but...........

 

[GodAtum]

An article about people wanting TFL to take over services:

A think tank has called for train operators Southeastern, Southern and South West Trains to be replaced in south London by the Overground run by TfL.

The ‘turning south London orange’ report by the Centre for London states that not putting train services under TfL control will cause the network to “struggle with progressively worse crowding and congestion."

It also claims extending the Overground would bring extra economic benefits and job growth.

The report comes as the South West Trains franchise contact is coming to end and the Department for Transport is seeking commuter views on the current service.

South West Trains, which provides services in and out of central London from stations in Kingston, Richmond, Wandsworth, Elmbridge and Epsom, has often been a point of contention with commuters who complain of late trains, delays and cancellations on a daily basis.

The franchise also has some of the most overcrowded trains in the country with certain morning services being 60 per cent over capacity.

The 7.32am and 7.02am South West services from Woking to Waterloo through Surbiton are consistently in the top 10 most overcrowded trains in the country.

The report estimates any TfL takeover would cost £10bn to £15bn over 25 years if rail franchises are phased out when they came up for renewal.

South West Trains’ franchise expires in 2017, Southeastern's in 2018 and Southern in 2021.

To respond to the DfT consultation email [email protected] or write to South Western Consultation Coordinator, 4/15 Great Minster House, 33 Horseferry Road, SW1P 4DR by February 9.

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/14209709.Should_TfL_run_all_south_London_train_services_/

My main concern is what stations they define. I lcertainly do not want East Croydon trains to be TFL, as I like to keep the 1st class sections.

 

[A-driver]

An article about people wanting TFL to take over services:







My main concern is what stations they define. I lcertainly do not want East Croydon trains to be TFL, as I like to keep the 1st class sections.

People rather foolishly think TfL taking over is the answer to all issues. It's far from it. Who ever runs the trains will encounter the same delays and issues. It will still be network rails infrastructure and TfL trains will still be subject to delays as they'll be sharing the congested over-capacity tracks with Thameslink and southern mainline (or whoever the mainline TOC is in that area) services.

 

[NSEFAN]

People rather foolishly think TfL taking over is the answer to all issues. It's far from it. Who ever runs the trains will encounter the same delays and issues. It will still be network rails infrastructure and TfL trains will still be subject to delays as they'll be sharing the congested over-capacity tracks with Thameslink and southern mainline (or whoever the mainline TOC is in that area) services.

Of course painting the trains orange isn't a magic bullet, but perhaps TfL have access to money that regular franchisees don't? Given enough money, no engineering problem is insurmountable...

Services which are entirely within the travelcard zones may make sense in some cases to transfer to LOROL, but this would depend on how easy it is to segregate these from services which run further afield. I also feel that coinciding the introduction of LOROL with new trains would help with re-mapping services. Again, these are organisational issues which need to be thought through before the crayonistas are let loose!

 

[neilm]

Of course painting the trains orange isn't a magic bullet, but perhaps TfL have access to money that regular franchisees don't? Given enough money, no engineering problem is insurmountable...

Services which are entirely within the travelcard zones may make sense in some cases to transfer to LOROL, but this would depend on how easy it is to segregate these from services which run further afield. I also feel that coinciding the introduction of LOROL with new trains would help with re-mapping services. Again, these are organisational issues which need to be thought through before the crayonistas are let loose!

I agree although tfl would not solve everything I think they would spend more money. At the end of the day GTR are just doing what they are told to do and what has been agreed by dft.

We only have to look at the north London line, silverlink did as the dft told them to but look what happened under tfl...

 

[colchesterken]

I think people in the press and tellie are being a bit unfair on South Eastern I don't know much about their service level not my area

But on l
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
oops pressed the wrong button----

On London news today they were saying delays due to signal failure,That is Network Rail

Bring back Network South East with Chris Green in charge !!

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is RailUK Forums and they have all the answers(most notably those who dont work in the industry and such and such ....)

So only doctors can criticise doctors and only MPs can criticise MPs?

But of course.

As with most of the south east TOCs, the reasons for many of the delays have nothing to do with them. It's purely a case of running too many trains on too few tracks. If you're stretched to capacity then the whole lot falls over with the smallest niggle.

But the main reason why people dislike these TOCs are due to issues within the TOC's control. A lack of station staff. A lack of ticket staff. Filthy trains. Off-peak overcrowding. Obscene Anytime fares. A lack of willingness to accept responsibility. A lack of information (or even just a visible presence) when things go up the spout. Ridiculously tight staff (and unit) diagramming which means if a staff member is delayed at 8am they'll still be delayed when they clock off eight hours later.

London Midland's attitude to customer service is to blame everyone else and, if that doesn't work, resort to outright lies. It seems that the rest of GoVia have the same attitude. People understand, and are generally tolerant, of some delays where they understand why and what is happening, so long as it isn't happening every day. The issue with TSGN, like FCC before them, and like London Midland, is that the staff do a disappearing act when things go up the spout and the TOC does its very best to give the impression they couldn't give a toss.

 

[Antman]

i do agree that branches like caterham and tattenham could and should just have shuttles, which means more trains could then run up the redhill line.

yes, tattenham and caterham people would have to cross over at purley, but...........

No they should not!