Rail accounts for only 2% of all trips made

[Killingworth]

Going back to the 1920s, my grandfather was a commercial traveller based in Newcastle. As far as I can tell his patch was Northumberland and Durham. He had a bike and he used trains a lot. Until he was one of the first to get a company car. He could do so much more. And so the world changed.

The railways were built in a world where walking a mile or two to the station was normal. Most people lived within walking distance of their place of work, so rail commuting was at first limited. The peak years of rail didn't last long.

Today we're trying to superimpose a modern transport system onto heritage Victoria remnants of a network designed for a different market. It's almost a miracle it can work as well as it does.

How can we get more trains into shortened platforms in stations now hemmed in by buildings on sold off railway land? And add more tracks without expensive tunnelling?

There's potential to double rail use if the infrastructure existed, but it currently doesn't. If rail use did double that might increase the headline figure of 2% of journeys to less than 4%, because as the convenience of travel improves we make more journeys.

 

[yorksrob]

Platform lengthening isn't restricted by lack of space in a lot of places. It's the cost of moving signalling and having enough trains in the first place that seem to be the limiting factors.

In terms of geography, the country hasn't changed that much. The towns and cities are more or less in the same place, which is why the Victorian railway works comparatively well. The main difference is that people move further and more often than they did.

People still move from town to town, town to city, city to seaside etc justcas they did in Victorian times.

 

[MarkyT]

Platform lengthening isn't restricted by lack of space in a lot of places. It's the cost of moving signalling and having enough trains in the first place that seem to be the limiting factors.

And positions of junctions including terminal throats, bridges, embankments, cuttings and tunnels are often constraints.

 

[yorksrob]

And positions of junctions including terminal throats, bridges, embankments, cuttings and tunnels are often constraints.

Indeed. Although up here in the North, a lot of starions were built for much longer trains and subsequently shortened.

 

[edwin_m]

when I was a kid n 60's or early 70's in Leeds, days out into the dales were by bus. we lived on N leeds so we could get buses to many places without going into town.

But the big family holiday often was further afield, so that was the train. It was something special. to Devon, or to Folkestone where my grandparents had retired to. (Yes, my parents dragged 2 kids and luggage across London between termini)

for many, rail still has that 'special' role, used rarely but important.

There can't be many family holidays by train today though - most people wouldn't contemplate taking 2 kids and luggage any other way than by car even if there was no cross-London transfer involved. Family holidays to UK resorts have declined dramatically, and one of the consequences of Beeching was the elimination of the summer Saturday specials for which rolling stock was allegedly kept idle for the rest of the year.

From the age of about 10 (mid-70s, wouldn't happen today!) I was often put on a train alone or later with my younger brother, between home in Manchester and relatives near Watford or even South Devon. But when we travelled as a family it was always by car.

 

[Killingworth]

There can't be many family holidays by train today though - most people wouldn't contemplate taking 2 kids and luggage any other way than by car even if there was no cross-London transfer involved. From the age of about 10 (mid-70s, wouldn't happen today!) I was often put on a train alone or later with my younger brother, between home in Manchester and relatives near Watford or even South Devon. But when we travelled as a family it was always by car.

Back then there was luggage in advance. An articulated truck, Scammell Arab, would call to collect steel trunks and heavy leather luggage to be delivered to your destination, be it Gleneagles, your hotel in Haverfordwest or Aunt Flora in Wick. We found some in mother-in-law's attic when clearing the house, still bearing evidence of travels on both land and sea.

 

[squizzler]

Back then there was luggage in advance. An articulated truck, Scammell Arab, would call to collect steel trunks and heavy leather luggage to be delivered to your destination, be it Gleneagles, your hotel in Haverfordwest or Aunt Flora in Wick. We found some in mother-in-law's attic when clearing the house, still bearing evidence of travels on both land and sea.

That sounds like the sort of wheeze that is just waiting for a silicon valley 'app' to reinvent it for us. Those who follow the IT biz know that their 'innovations' are invariably old stuff repacked via slick marketing and so many buzzwords to look like a brand new innovation. Maybe a train operator (sorry, I mean Consumer / Infrastructure Interfacing Solutions Platform) can make it happen and reap the benefit?

 

[edwin_m]

That sounds like the sort of wheeze that is just waiting for a silicon valley 'app' to reinvent it for us. Those who follow the IT biz know that their 'innovations' are invariably old stuff repacked via slick marketing and so many buzzwords to look like a brand new innovation. Maybe a train operator (sorry, I mean Consumer / Infrastructure Interfacing Solutions Platform) can make it happen and reap the benefit?

Anyone wanting this could book it already via one of numerous courier firms. It wouldn't go by train of course...

I seem to remember at least one TOC had an arrangement with a courier at one time. Might have been one of the incarnations of East Coast.

 

[MarkyT]

That sounds like the sort of wheeze that is just waiting for a silicon valley 'app' to reinvent it for us. Those who follow the IT biz know that their 'innovations' are invariably old stuff repacked via slick marketing and so many buzzwords to look like a brand new innovation. Maybe a train operator (sorry, I mean Consumer / Infrastructure Interfacing Solutions Platform) can make it happen and reap the benefit?

Like this one? https://www.sendmybag.com/
For UK Mainland to UK Mainland.
Standard, 1-2 working days, up to 30kg: £19.00, over 30kg: £19.00 + £2.20 per additional kg
Express, 1-2 working days, up to 30kg: £22.00, over 30kg: £22.00 + £2.20 per additional kg

 

[yorksrob]

There can't be many family holidays by train today though - most people wouldn't contemplate taking 2 kids and luggage any other way than by car even if there was no cross-London transfer involved. Family holidays to UK resorts have declined dramatically, and one of the consequences of Beeching was the elimination of the summer Saturday specials for which rolling stock was allegedly kept idle for the rest of the year.

From the age of about 10 (mid-70s, wouldn't happen today!) I was often put on a train alone or later with my younger brother, between home in Manchester and relatives near Watford or even South Devon. But when we travelled as a family it was always by car.

My family always used to go by car and meet me at the destination. Since my father has given up driving, we all go by train.

 

[Killingworth]

Like this one? https://www.sendmybag.com/
For UK Mainland to UK Mainland.
Standard, 1-2 working days, up to 30kg: £19.00, over 30kg: £19.00 + £2.20 per additional kg
Express, 1-2 working days, up to 30kg: £22.00, over 30kg: £22.00 + £2.20 per additional kg

Looks good to me. Pity it's not marketed by those selling tickets to Manchester Airport on overcrowded trains with inadequate luggage space. Mind you telling customers they should pay extra for space they think should be provided free might not go down well.

Just seen a heavily overloaded 3 car 185 stuck at Dore & Totley unable to get doors closed again! Apparently high spirited Owls supporters, just over heated due to crush then malfunction on one door. Several opted to leave there and make there way by other means.

 

[yorksrob]

Looks good to me. Pity it's not marketed by those selling tickets to Manchester Airport on overcrowded trains with inadequate luggage space. Mind you telling customers they should pay extra for space they think should be provided free might not go down well.

Just seen a heavily overloaded 3 car 185 stuck at Dore & Totley unable to get doors closed again! Apparently high spirited Owls supporters, just over heated due to crush then malfunction on one door. Several opted to leave there and make there way by other means.

Do they know when they'll clear the blockage ?

 

[Killingworth]

Do they know when they'll clear the blockage ?

Blockage? The TPE was delayed 12 minutes. 3 police aboard. Crowd good humoured but knock on delays to several other trains.

 

[yorksrob]

Blockage? The TPE was delayed 12 minutes. 3 police aboard. Crowd good humoured but knock on delays to several other trains.

Good. Hopefully it should have sorted itself out by the time I get there !

 

[Killingworth]

The central issue here is that rail carries a much lower percentage of travellers than it potentially could. There are so many factors, but one is whether demand can be predicted or is random. Memory of trains in the 50s and 60s are of almost empty carriages and plenty of space. Peaks of demand could be catered for quite easily, and more coaches were in reserve. About 8,000 of them were used only a few times a year which Beeching rightly concluded was unreasonable, especially in a declining market.

As a Sheffield resident it's inevitable that my perspective today is clouded by standing regularly on TPE services serving Manchester and the airport. I'm told that was really bad on Saturday and that passengers unable to get aboard a 3 coach 185 then packed the Northern Pacer stopping service, platform 2C crammed as full as regulars have ever seen it. Some were unable to get aboard that too. It left passengers on the platform at Edale to wait an hour for the next stopping service.

Rail is enjoying a resurgence. It might only take it to 2.1% of the travel market as a whole but the increase in some areas and at fairly predictable times, is in the region of 100% since the current levels of rolling stock being provided were planned.

I use Edale as an example quite often. There is no bus to Edale, little different from many other small stations on rural lines. However, largely thanks to rail access Edale at the southern end of the Pennine Way is a mecca for backpackers, and some of those packs are very big! Edale is the proven most popular place in Britain for serious walkers to start a walk, as shown from Ordnance Survey records of downloaded walks.

A 2 car Pacer is totally inadequate at weekends, especially over Bank Holidays and in summer. (On Sunday the service was reduced from hourly to 2 hourly.)

When overloaded or delayed fast TPE services effectively dump that overload onto the stopping service it maybe very cosy, but it's a deterrent to making further rail journeys. That applies to the long distance passengers crammed in as well as the back packers.

Is this a problem in my area alone? Of course not. Almost everyone can tell similar. My grandsons in Essex now commute to school by rail. In theory the bus should be better for both. Thanks to traffic and crew issues the supposedly good bus services aren't. They use Greater Anglia with trains that are frequent and long. However, they too can be short formed and too full to board. They too sometimes have to wait 15 minutes to get on the next train. (Currently there's no weekend service, a situation that seems to have gone on for many months.)

Capacity in my book is currently more important than speed. Withdrawing old carriages before we have enough to replace them may well meet legislative deadlines, but are we ordering enough when they're all delivered? Are we modelling demand adequately? And are we utilising the stock we already have effectively?

For that last question I'd say we are not, certainly between Sheffield and Manchester, fast or slow and certainly not together.

 

[The Ham]

The central issue here is that rail carries a much lower percentage of travellers than it potentially could. There are so many factors, but one is whether demand can be predicted or is random. Memory of trains in the 50s and 60s are of almost empty carriages and plenty of space. Peaks of demand could be catered for quite easily, and more coaches were in reserve. About 8,000 of them were used only a few times a year which Beeching rightly concluded was unreasonable, especially in a declining market.

As a Sheffield resident it's inevitable that my perspective today is clouded by standing regularly on TPE services serving Manchester and the airport. I'm told that was really bad on Saturday and that passengers unable to get aboard a 3 coach 185 then packed the Northern Pacer stopping service, platform 2C crammed as full as regulars have ever seen it. Some were unable to get aboard that too. It left passengers on the platform at Edale to wait an hour for the next stopping service.

Rail is enjoying a resurgence. It might only take it to 2.1% of the travel market as a whole but the increase in some areas and at fairly predictable times, is in the region of 100% since the current levels of rolling stock being provided were planned.

I use Edale as an example quite often. There is no bus to Edale, little different from many other small stations on rural lines. However, largely thanks to rail access Edale at the southern end of the Pennine Way is a mecca for backpackers, and some of those packs are very big! Edale is the proven most popular place in Britain for serious walkers to start a walk, as shown from Ordnance Survey records of downloaded walks.

A 2 car Pacer is totally inadequate at weekends, especially over Bank Holidays and in summer. (On Sunday the service was reduced from hourly to 2 hourly.)

When overloaded or delayed fast TPE services effectively dump that overload onto the stopping service it maybe very cosy, but it's a deterrent to making further rail journeys. That applies to the long distance passengers crammed in as well as the back packers.

Is this a problem in my area alone? Of course not. Almost everyone can tell similar. My grandsons in Essex now commute to school by rail. In theory the bus should be better for both. Thanks to traffic and crew issues the supposedly good bus services aren't. They use Greater Anglia with trains that are frequent and long. However, they too can be short formed and too full to board. They too sometimes have to wait 15 minutes to get on the next train. (Currently there's no weekend service, a situation that seems to have gone on for many months.)

Capacity in my book is currently more important than speed. Withdrawing old carriages before we have enough to replace them may well meet legislative deadlines, but are we ordering enough when they're all delivered? Are we modelling demand adequately? And are we utilising the stock we already have effectively?

For that last question I'd say we are not, certainly between Sheffield and Manchester, fast or slow and certainly not together.

There was something like 3,000 coaches of new trains delivered during CP5, with a further 2,000 (excluding new trains for TfW & MML) scheduled for delivery during CP6.

Now there's a big demand for extra coaches, as well as replacement for trains which have to be withdrawn. However with a total fleet size of ~14,000 an extra 5,000 would imply that rolling stock her a life span of 30 years, which is generally lower than is the case, so overall probably about the right sort of numbers to increase capacity.

The problem is that the more capacity that's provided the more people who tend to want to use the railways. As an example in the last 9 years since the upgrade of the WCML rail growth had gone up by about 70% between London and the West Midlands/North West/Scotland.

Which means for every 100 people using the trains in 2009 there's now 170 people. Which is a big increase to cater for. Chances are TPE, Northern, etc. who have recently received/about to receive new capacity are likely to see more growth.

Look at what GWR are doing with their HST GTI's where they're replacing 2 coach trains with 4 coaches, 3 coaches with 5 coaches in the Portsmouth/Cardiff services. Even then chances are they'll need to be improved further when the next franchise is let.

 

[underbank]

In places like the North West, where relatively few people use the trains outside commuting to the city centres, there's massive potential for passenger number increases. At the moment, people don't use the trains because they're old, crowded, infrequent and have poor weekend and non peak timetables. A shake up of the timetables and better/longer trains has the potential for massive increases in passenger numbers. From, say, North Lancashire/Cumbria, you simply can't get to Manchester Airport for early/mid morning flights which is crazy. A better overall train system would encourage people out of their cars as at the moment, car usage is the default and people don't even think about using the train.

Compare that with, say, London, where there is already such a good service, people who could use trains are already using them, so any increase in passengers will be down solely to population increase, rather than changing to trains from another mode of transport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In places like the North West, where relatively few people use the trains outside commuting to the city centres, there's massive potential for passenger number increases. At the moment, people don't use the trains because they're old, crowded, infrequent and have poor weekend and non peak timetables. A shake up of the timetables and better/longer trains has the potential for massive increases in passenger numbers. From, say, North Lancashire/Cumbria, you simply can't get to Manchester Airport for early/mid morning flights which is crazy. A better overall train system would encourage people out of their cars as at the moment, car usage is the default and people don't even think about using the train.

Compare that with, say, London, where there is already such a good service, people who could use trains are already using them, so any increase in passengers will be down solely to population increase, rather than changing to trains from another mode of transport.

I agree. This is why I think capacity and quality increases plus a "North West Takt" - a simple, understandable, consistent clockface timetable across the network - plus a big promotional hit - would grow numbers substantially.

Presently, Northern is just utter garbage. Using it is a distress purchase, and some fancy DMUs won't change that on their own.

I similarly feel that TPE are going to need their new sets to be 7 or 8-car in very short order, or things won't change other than more people travelling!

 

[Killingworth]

Quote from local social media today after reports of the weekend overcrowding on trains to and from Edale "we used to use the trains a lot to go walking in edale and Hope loads of times but got fed up of standing up on the train home most times as the train was rammed so sod public transport and we go in the car plus we save a tenner as it was a tenner plus each on the train and now its just fuel and carpark"

The Peak District National Park, CPRE, National Trust, and countless other bodies are wanting to reduce the numbers of cars coming into the region. The lines to Matlock, Buxton and the Hope Valley can all help with that with more carriages and possibly more frequent services at peak periods. They're barely scratching the surface today compared with the numbers carried in the 1950s - see Ramblers Special from 1954. Incidentally, there are two trains, not one in the film. Note the position of shadows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quote from local social media today after reports of the weekend overcrowding on trains to and from Edale "we used to use the trains a lot to go walking in edale and Hope loads of times but got fed up of standing up on the train home most times as the train was rammed so sod public transport and we go in the car plus we save a tenner as it was a tenner plus each on the train and now its just fuel and carpark"

Well, quite. Stick a 4-car Class 170 with a trolley[1][2] on it and they'd be happy and coming back for more. A single overcrowded 142 (or worse 150, at least you can see out of a 142) and you can see why the "trains are rubbish" view perpetuates.

It just seems that there is no will to make the marketing effort for this sort of line. Where's the likes of the Trentbarton/Blazefield (Alex Hornby) marketing approach that could be pulling in the masses? Similarly, where's the marketing for Windermere? Stagecoach are marketing the absolute hell out of their Lakeland bus network these days, it all looks really good, yet Northern seem to like to pretend the Lakes Line doesn't even exist at times.

[1] If it was there reliably on a Saturday and Sunday on the morning and evening trains it'd flog a load of tea in the morning and a load of beer in the evening and probably make a profit...now imagine adding initiatives like the "folk trains" to really make a day out?

[2] And yet they perpetuate with using Class 170s on an urban-ish (though admittedly scenic) very-local very-stopping service around Leeds rather than on this kind of regional express (I know it stops everywhere in the Hope Valley but stations are spaced out and it's fast in the Manchester area - in Germany it'd be a RE and not a RB) to which they are ideally suited.

 

[Taunton]

Quote from local social media today after reports of the weekend overcrowding on trains to and from Edale "we used to use the trains a lot to go walking in Edale and Hope loads of times but got fed up of standing up on the train home most times as the train was rammed so sod public transport.

That's how it is nowadays with rail. The tracks and stations are there, but the operator does not provide any useful service. Meanwhile trains are sat in the sidings all weekend. Same happens around London; operator knows there is always a big inward demand on Marathon Sunday mornings, puts up draconian notices about penalties/court action if you don't have a ticket, everyone buys one, then in rolls just a 2-car dmu already full to busting, people can't even get in the doors.

 

[LowLevel]

Well, quite. Stick a 4-car Class 170 with a trolley[1][2] on it and they'd be happy and coming back for more. A single overcrowded 142 (or worse 150, at least you can see out of a 142) and you can see why the "trains are rubbish" view perpetuates.

It just seems that there is no will to make the marketing effort for this sort of line. Where's the likes of the Trentbarton/Blazefield (Alex Hornby) marketing approach that could be pulling in the masses? Similarly, where's the marketing for Windermere? Stagecoach are marketing the absolute hell out of their Lakeland bus network these days, it all looks really good, yet Northern seem to like to pretend the Lakes Line doesn't even exist at times.

[1] If it was there reliably on a Saturday and Sunday on the morning and evening trains it'd flog a load of tea in the morning and a load of beer in the evening and probably make a profit...now imagine adding initiatives like the "folk trains" to really make a day out?

[2] And yet they perpetuate with using Class 170s on an urban-ish (though admittedly scenic) very-local very-stopping service around Leeds rather than on this kind of regional express (I know it stops everywhere in the Hope Valley but stations are spaced out and it's fast in the Manchester area - in Germany it'd be a RE and not a RB) to which they are ideally suited.

The Hope Valley stopper is a slightly longer distance local service for 42 miles and it runs non stop for a grand total of 4 (!) miles from Reddish North to Manchester Piccadilly. It could do with more open carriages with extra room for bikes and luggage more than anything else - the current 142s or suburban spec 150s mostly used aren't much cop. 156s are rather better and depending on how they're fitted out can take as much luggage as you can throw at a 2 car train with plenty of bikes.

My involvement with the route seems doomed to end within the next few years which I have mixed feelings about but it's a lovely railway line which struggles greatly to meet it's mixed demand for local, intercity and freight traffic.

 

[yorksrob]

All sorts of very good points raised here today. As mentioned, there's s lot of potential demand for urban rail travel in the North. They were on the right lines - electrification and much longer trains with Bolton (four carriage units with the potential to double up).

Unfortunately we're still at the stage of playing around with 2 and 3 carriage DMU's which would be better deployed providing capacity for the deeper rural areas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Hope Valley stopper is a slightly longer distance local service for 42 miles and it runs non stop for a grand total of 4 (!) miles from Reddish North to Manchester Piccadilly.

It does, but in terms of station spacing it's more like a Tring stopper on the WCML (long station spacings, higher speed running) than it is like a Manchester area suburban stopper or a country branch line.

Yes, I'm cool with 156s - fresh air on scenic lines is nice

 

[Killingworth]

Well, quite. Stick a 4-car Class 170 with a trolley[1][2] on it and they'd be happy and coming back for more. A single overcrowded 142 (or worse 150, at least you can see out of a 142) and you can see why the "trains are rubbish" view perpetuates.

It just seems that there is no will to make the marketing effort for this sort of line. Where's the likes of the Trentbarton/Blazefield (Alex Hornby) marketing approach that could be pulling in the masses? Similarly, where's the marketing for Windermere? Stagecoach are marketing the absolute hell out of their Lakeland bus network these days, it all looks really good, yet Northern seem to like to pretend the Lakes Line doesn't even exist at times.

[1] If it was there reliably on a Saturday and Sunday on the morning and evening trains it'd flog a load of tea in the morning and a load of beer in the evening and probably make a profit...now imagine adding initiatives like the "folk trains" to really make a day out?

[2] And yet they perpetuate with using Class 170s on an urban-ish (though admittedly scenic) very-local very-stopping service around Leeds rather than on this kind of regional express (I know it stops everywhere in the Hope Valley but stations are spaced out and it's fast in the Manchester area - in Germany it'd be a RE and not a RB) to which they are ideally suited.

This particular line now has it's own thread at; https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-should-service-provision-at-dore-hope-valley-stations-be-improved.181150/#post-3962504

However, Part of the problem here is the franchising arrangements to overlap 3 quite separate services over the Piccadilly - Sheffield section.

Liverpool-Norwich uses Platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly and as a result has been notoriously lacking in punctuality on eastbound services. That East Midlands 158 service provides the first westbound and last eastbound stopping services mostly with 4 carriages. When it's 2 x 158 it's usually a satisfactory ride. When it's only one in peak periods it's certainly not. Passengers may wait for the next service.

That can be a mistake. Ideally the TPE 185 should be running about 30 minutes later, but at present it's nearer 40 minutes and most are still only 3 carriages. 6 are promised but it's well over a year since that was originally being said and only a few currently are. As has been said above these trains can be severely overloaded, so people may go for the stopping service only 20 minutes later than the EM and should arrive in Sheffield before the TPE.

From the Sheffield end a 3 car TPE service is likely to be overloaded very easily, so the excess heads for the Northern stopper that will arrive at Piccadilly a few minutes before the next EM.

When/if Northern can operate 2 x 150 trains they'll be able to soak up more of that load - but first platform extensions are needed at Hope, Grindleford and especially westbound at Hathersage - supposedly later this year. Northern are trying to promote the leisure use of the line and now have Friends groups at all the stations. They have a leaflet produced just before the Saturday shutdown last year.

The High Peak, and Hope Valley CRP is also doing what it can to suggest walks from stations and sponsors Folk trains. See also Transpeak Walks

Ridership is growing fast, but lack of revenue protection may be under recording that fact.

 

[yorksrob]

I doubt anyone could get through to check tickets on a lot of the stoppers I've been on.

 

[kevin_roche]

In other news the BBC news website has this today:

The UK should lead the global fight against climate change by cutting greenhouse gases to nearly zero by 2050, a report says.

It estimates that about 38% of the change can be achieved through low-carbon technologies, 9% would depend mainly on societal or behavioural changes alone, and 53% would depend on a combination of both.

he report also says people can take the following steps to reduce their emissions:

• Choosing to walk, cycle or take public transport instead of a car

It seems that rail could offer a solution to many journeys but will require much better planning rather than the finger in the air jobs that are being done now.

 

[Adlington]

It seems that rail could offer a solution to many journeys

Or a bus. Or a shared car. Or a taxi (Uber included....). Rail isn't the only solution, particularly for short journeys.

 

[Captain Bigwig]

Or a bus. Or a shared car. Or a taxi (Uber included....). Rail isn't the only solution, particularly for short journeys.

Quite. The same article talks about all (or virtually all) cars being electric by 2050 and rail will not have lower CO2 emissions once this happens.

 

[Esker-pades]

Or a bus. Or a shared car. Or a taxi (Uber included....). Rail isn't the only solution, particularly for short journeys.

How does a taxi reduce carbon emissions compared to a car?