Rail fares to go up by 3.1%

[Ken H]

This ↓ .


Pay people on low wages more, not bring everyone else down to a low wage. Just because one group of people is given a crap deal doesn't mean everyone else should get the same crap deal. The people on the crap deal should get a better deal.

so where does all this money come from?

 

[Esker-pades]

so where does all this money come from?

The same pot that gave the DUP £1.5bn. the same pot that reduced the tax rate for top earners. The same pot that allowed Google to get away with billions of pounds of tax avoidance by only paying ~£130m.

 

[Ken H]

The same pot that gave the DUP £1.5bn. the same pot that reduced the tax rate for top earners. The same pot that allowed Google to get away with billions of pounds of tax avoidance by only paying ~£130m.

the reduction in top rate tax caused a rise in tax take. This is a well known phenomenon documented by economist Arthur Laffer.
they didnt give the DUP any money. it was spending promise for NI. Same as governments have done for years to get the Welsh, Scots and N irish to support a government. Which is why the barnett formula is so skewed against England.
The tax laws have been passed by parliament. If they chose to pass laws that allow avoidance then thats their fault. Suggest you ask your MP why these laws havent been changed. I would suggest they have existed for many,many years so this isnt a paty political issue. Remember, avoidance is legal, and company officers have a duty to maximise profit for shareholders.

 

[FGW_DID]

Was there not an article in RAIL recently (the last 18 months or so anyway?) that detailed the breakdown in how fare money was split. I seem to recall they used a £100 ticket as an easy example. TOCs only got around 3% of that. The two biggest chunks were 1) Network maintenance / renewals etc and 2) Staff costs (note it's costs and not just wages!)

 

[Ken H]

Was there not an article in RAIL recently (the last 18 months or so anyway?) that detailed the breakdown in how fare money was split. I seem to recall they used a £100 ticket as an easy example. TOCs only got around 3% of that. The two biggest chunks were 1) Network maintenance / renewals etc and 2) Staff costs (note it's costs and not just wages!)

surely train leasing must be a big chunk?

 

[FGW_DID]

I’m not saying cut their money but I’m sure they can cope with a couple of years of 0 or 1% pay rises.

Would YOU be willing to take a pay freeze for a 'couple' of years? Especially if it was just to save other people money!

 

[Ken H]

Would YOU be willing to take a pay freeze for a 'couple' of years? Especially if it was just to save other people money!

I am still on the same money as I was in Jan 2015.
Quite a bad hit from the changes in managed services companies tax laws too

 

[Bletchleyite]

we don't as GTR make it impossible to claim

How? I have claimed and been paid Delay Repay from GTR (Southern) on a good many occasions.

 

[dk1]

If it were 'pointless' then we would not need Signalmen lol

Plain line it. Just think of the wages that would save

 

[Failed Unit]

How? I have claimed and been paid Delay Repay from GTR (Southern) on a good many occasions.

The process from my experience

1. Make claim. Lots of hurdles making it as slow as possible including rCapture
2. Reject claim with some nonsense reason forcing you to go through same process as 1 giving exactly the same information again.
3. Tell you the 2nd claim is outside the period you are allowed to make a valid claim despite the reason for this being how long it took them to process the first attempt.

They hope you will give up at anyone one of the above.

4. Go to travel watch and then they pay.

You tell them at meet the manager sessions the process is not acceptable, they agree but say it is to stop people claiming. (Fraudulently) - but the fact it is effective at stopping real claims is an added bonus.

 

[winks]

Would YOU be willing to take a pay freeze for a 'couple' of years? Especially if it was just to save other people money!

Yes my pay rises were capped 1% every single year between 2011 and 217

 

[Dave1987]

I find it rather amazing about how British people think. The whole “I haven’t had a pay rise in 5 years so no one else should get one” is a pretty common trail of thought in this country. Maybe it’s systemic of why UK workers are still statistically poorer than we were in 2008. Austerity has become a mindset. People now seem to believe wage rises level with inflation are a luxury and that wage rises above inflation are excessive. How the hell does anyone expect the UK to grow and living standards to rise if people are critical of wage increases that are just inline with inflation. It’s clear that austerity is embedded in the UK mindset.

 

[al78]

Why should rail fares not rise, everything else does, everyone expects an annual pay or benefit rise, why should rail workers and rail shareholders be cut short ? A move to a CPI basis would be a reasonable change given that many personnel now find they are rewarded by cheaper CPI rather than previous RPI.

My pay is decreasing 50% next month.

 

[al78]

I find it rather amazing about how British people think. The whole “I haven’t had a pay rise in 5 years so no one else should get one” is a pretty common trail of thought in this country. Maybe it’s systemic of why UK workers are still statistically poorer than we were in 2008. Austerity has become a mindset. People now seem to believe wage rises level with inflation are a luxury and that wage rises above inflation are excessive. How the hell does anyone expect the UK to grow and living standards to rise if people are critical of wage increases that are just inline with inflation. It’s clear that austerity is embedded in the UK mindset.

How do you expect to have infinite growth on a finite planet with finite resources?

 

[yorkie]

Can we not stray too far off topic please!

 

[Gooner18]

My pay is decreasing 50% next month.

Staring as a trainee driver ?

 

[Ken H]

I find it rather amazing about how British people think. The whole “I haven’t had a pay rise in 5 years so no one else should get one” is a pretty common trail of thought in this country. Maybe it’s systemic of why UK workers are still statistically poorer than we were in 2008. Austerity has become a mindset. People now seem to believe wage rises level with inflation are a luxury and that wage rises above inflation are excessive. How the hell does anyone expect the UK to grow and living standards to rise if people are critical of wage increases that are just inline with inflation. It’s clear that austerity is embedded in the UK mindset.

Employers don't need to increase wages as there is a surplus of workers. Only when they have a problem retaining staff will wages increase. Or they may decide its cheaper to mechanise/computerise rather than increase wages. Of course, if costs become too high in the UK they can off-shore. If you want to get wage increases then you have to restrict the size of the workforce.
Also with flat wages and increasing personal tax allowances, income tax receipts to the treasure have fallen.

 

[Dave1987]

Employers don't need to increase wages as there is a surplus of workers. Only when they have a problem retaining staff will wages increase. Or they may decide its cheaper to mechanise/computerise rather than increase wages. Of course, if costs become too high in the UK they can off-shore. If you want to get wage increases then you have to restrict the size of the workforce.
Also with flat wages and increasing personal tax allowances, income tax receipts to the treasure have fallen.

I’m very well aware how the routes to higher wages work. But I’m also well aware that Grayling made a vain attempt at linking the rise in ticket prices to staff wage increases. Even though there are huge inefficiencies in his departments franchising model he would rather go after the wage rises of those at the bottom. What I kind extremely sad is how people instantly see wage rises inline with inflation as a luxury. It’s sad that people expect to get statistically poorer each year.

 

[kristiang85]

I find it rather amazing about how British people think. The whole “I haven’t had a pay rise in 5 years so no one else should get one” is a pretty common trail of thought in this country. Maybe it’s systemic of why UK workers are still statistically poorer than we were in 2008. Austerity has become a mindset. People now seem to believe wage rises level with inflation are a luxury and that wage rises above inflation are excessive. How the hell does anyone expect the UK to grow and living standards to rise if people are critical of wage increases that are just inline with inflation. It’s clear that austerity is embedded in the UK mindset.

But why should non-performance related pay rises go beyond inflation? If all organisations did that (in your perfect world), it would only increase costs for consumers, thereby driving up inflation, thereby meaning higher pay above this new inflation, thereby driving up inflation..... and so on.

The best way to do it would be to make non-performance related pay rises up to the inflation rate and not above, but obviously this is impossible to police (and also impossible to determine the perfect inflation rate), but my point is that wanting a society where everyone is handed out huge pay rises willy nilly is one sure way to cause a big economic bust.

As I see it, the transport unions can keep with their demands on pay (i.e. if its true that they are blocking ideas to stop using RPI to set fare inflation as it has a direct effect on wages), but if rail services keep going up at the current rate in costs in fares, its only going to stop people using them (either by relocating, using their car, or using tech to work from home), then the unions will end up having more problems in that rail companies will be making cuts on staff to save money. And, during all this, the leaders of said unions still get paid a handsome sum from their members' fees to protect them from these problems that are being caused by said merry go round.

TL;DR Its the long term sustainability that needs to be thought about.

 

[Dave1987]

But why should non-performance related pay rises go beyond inflation? If all organisations did that (in your perfect world), it would only increase costs for consumers, thereby driving up inflation, thereby meaning higher pay above this new inflation, thereby driving up inflation..... and so on.

The best way to do it would be to make non-performance related pay rises up to the inflation rate and not above, but obviously this is impossible to police (and also impossible to determine the perfect inflation rate), but my point is that wanting a society where everyone is handed out huge pay rises willy nilly is one sure way to cause a big economic bust.

As I see it, the transport unions can keep with their demands on pay (i.e. if its true that they are blocking ideas to stop using RPI to set fare inflation as it has a direct effect on wages), but if rail services keep going up at the current rate in costs in fares, its only going to stop people using them (either by relocating, using their car, or using tech to work from home), then the unions will end up having more problems in that rail companies will be making cuts on staff to save money. And, during all this, the leaders of said unions still get paid a handsome sum from their members' fees to protect them from these problems that are being caused by said merry go round.

TL;DR Its the long term sustainability that needs to be thought about.

Taking what I said completely out of context with a good bit of union bashing chucked in for effect. Yup standard response.

 

[kristiang85]

Taking what I said completely out of context with a good bit of union bashing chucked in for effect. Yup standard response.

So discuss with me then my two main points rather than just shut it down.

- How do you propose to keep inflation in control if you expect companies to shell out higher than inflation salaries, and not expect costs to go up in line with this when many organisations' staff costs are typically 50%+ of their turnover? This is a larger issue than just with the railway though, so maybe its a little off topic.
- The second, more pertinent, point is: if the current wage rises for rail staff continue, then that is a big driver in keeping the current rises in fares for passengers, which in the long term is not sustainable. Especially now we have technology that enables people to not need to commute to their office, it is a big future threat to the viability of the railway (and, by extension, the careers of its staff). Already my train is dead on a Friday due to people making that day their WAH day, and this is only going to increase if costs keep going up but service stagnates (or, as on many lines, it is getting worse). Thus the railway needs to keep its fares roughly in line with other major cost of living increases, otherwise it will become a 'disposable' expense.

(all in my humble opinion, anyway)

 

[Hadders]

We can maybe apply. But knowing GTR and how they administer delay repay I seriously doubt we will get anything. A fare freeze would be much better considering how poor the service is.

The problem with a fares freeze is that it reduces railway income for ever. That said I do think something needs to be done for GTR and Northern passengers.

I would freeze fares set by GTR and Northern for a year. However I'd allow a double increase to be applied next year, assuming agreed performance targets were met. This would hopefully have 3 effects:

- Recognition of the shambles that Northern and GTR passengers have had to put up with
- A degree of 'punishment' for Northern and GTR in that their income will be lower next year
- The incentive of a double increase next year to hopefully focusing minds to get the problems resolved.

The process from my experience

1. Make claim. Lots of hurdles making it as slow as possible including rCapture
2. Reject claim with some nonsense reason forcing you to go through same process as 1 giving exactly the same information again.
3. Tell you the 2nd claim is outside the period you are allowed to make a valid claim despite the reason for this being how long it took them to process the first attempt.

They hope you will give up at anyone one of the above.

4. Go to travel watch and then they pay.

You tell them at meet the manager sessions the process is not acceptable, they agree but say it is to stop people claiming. (Fraudulently) - but the fact it is effective at stopping real claims is an added bonus.

In fairness to GTR this is one area they've done pretty well with, in my experience. I've had over 50 claims against GTR this year, all of them paid within a couple of weeks. I haven't had any claims rejected. I've even had my industry enhanced compensation approved as a regular traveller approved in under 24 hours.

Northern on the other hand....

 

[MDB1images]

Guards pay of £38,000 is totally overpaid in my opinion . (By about 8k) A nurse starting out will be on c£23k and does far more training and requires qualifications

I'm sure Guards in the North of England don't get a basic pay anywhere near the £38,000 you mention!

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm sure Guards in the North of England don't get a basic pay anywhere near the £38,000 you mention!

When ScotRail advertised for guards in October, the starting salary was given as ~£31,500.

 

[J-Rod]

Ignoring all of the finer points and microscopic detail for a second...

The railways have had a p*ss poor year as far as their image with the travelling public is concerned and this has only rubbed salt into the wound.

Being a former commuter from that there Letchworth, I am very glad that I don't have to take the trains to work any more, having moved somewhere else and now work from home (for which I consider myself immensely fortunate in many ways). A fares increase would have only caused me to have less ££ in my pocket as believe me, the guy I worked for didn't like giving his staff extra money because 'we should be grateful to have a job for him, full stop' (so no pay freezes, just working for an asre).

I can't imagine I'm alone in this and I wouldn't be surprised if more people realised that they could actually cut down their travel and work from home more, simply popping in maybe a couple of times a week, out of peak hours, for really important stuff? Desperate times = 'desperate' measures?

Anyway, back to debating the merits of 0.1% on the RPI of the hang-seng index vs the CBI and how it relates to tea quality in the drivers' lounge and how that'll be affected by Brother Mick Cash while he spits in NHS nurses' faces and waves his BUPA card.

 

[scrapy]

Guards pay of £38,000 is totally overpaid in my opinion . (By about 8k) A nurse starting out will be on c£23k and does far more training and requires qualifications

According to a recent job advert Northern pay guards 27,952pa basic when fully trained. So if you're suggesting they should be paid 30,000 they are actually underpaid.

 

[Meole]

A guard works alone with individual responsibility, a nurse does longer in training but at that stage would rarely have sole responsibility.

 

[kristiang85]

A guard works alone with individual responsibility, a nurse does longer in training but at that stage would rarely have sole responsibility.

Whilst its not best to get into this comparison, I should say that a nurse deals with life or death situations every day, whereas a train guard will hopefully not have to deal with any in their career.

 

[Starmill]

Whilst its not best to get into this comparison, I should say that a nurse deals with life or death situations every day, whereas a train guard will hopefully not have to deal with any in their career.

There was a recent advertisement for an on board supervisor role in Eastbourne, with an annual salary after qualification of £32,600.

With none of the safety critical responsibilities of a conductor, no requirement to operate the train and duties which consist mainly of customer service, passenger assistance and some revenue and retail, it seems to me that this is one of the best 'value for money' positions one can get these days.

 

[jamesthegill]

the guy I worked for didn't like giving his staff extra money because 'we should be grateful to have a job for him, full stop' (so no pay freezes, just working for an asre).

Don't worry, I'm sure he'll get visited by four ghosts in a couple of weeks and see the error of his ways!