Rail firm to add 220 trains a week from December

[AndrewE]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clmy41lz1rdo:

A train operating company in East Sussex and Kent said it plans to add 220 more services to its timetable in December.

Southeastern said the additional services, including 12 extra peak-time trains operating on the Greenwich and Sidcup routes, would improve access to the Elizabeth Line into Central London and out to Heathrow, Maidenhead and Reading.

It said some evening services from London Charing Cross to Maidstone East would also be extended to Ashford International, calling at Bearsted, Hollingbourne, Harrietsham, Lenham and Charing.
etc..

Bully for them... How come there is money to employ staff and lease rolling stock for a better service in the SE, when rail is almost unuseable in the North of England because of shockingly bad reliability resulting from staff and rolling stock shortages?
Especially when peak-time services are notoriously financially inefficent (for a provider) due to poor stock and staff utilisation.

 

[godfreycomplex]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clmy41lz1rdo:

Bully for them... How come there is money to employ staff and lease rolling stock for a better service in the SE, when rail is almost unuseable in the North of England because of shockingly bad reliability resulting from staff and rolling stock shortages?
Especially when peak-time services are notoriously financially inefficent (for a provider) due to poor stock and staff utilisation.

Broken Rails by Christian Wolmar would be a good place to start reading around this. Not a perfect book, but it’s a good warm up

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn't this one of the results of the cascade kicked off earlier in the year by the 30 class 379s being picked up by GN?
That's because there is a surplus of cascaded EMUs in the south east.
The northern equivalent is the fleet of redundant ex-TfW 27 class 175s parked up near Crewe.
Northern is also getting WMT's cascaded 323 EMUs, but at a very slow rate.

 

[Class 466]

Isn't this one of the results of the cascade kicked off earlier in the year by the 30 class 379s being picked up by GN?
That's because there is a surplus of cascaded EMUs in the south east.
The northern equivalent is the fleet of redundant ex-TfW 27 class 175s parked up near Crewe.
Northern is also getting WMT's cascaded 323 EMUs, but at a very slow rate.

Nope this plan doesn't involve any additional stock on Southeastern.

 

[Minstral25]

Isn't this one of the results of the cascade kicked off earlier in the year by the 30 class 379s being picked up by GN?
That's because there is a surplus of cascaded EMUs in the south east.
The northern equivalent is the fleet of redundant ex-TfW 27 class 175s parked up near Crewe.
Northern is also getting WMT's cascaded 323 EMUs, but at a very slow rate.

Only a few 379's needed for December - most will appear from May 25.

My view is that these changes are the result of positive management attitude leading the franchise.

 

[The exile]

Only a few 379's needed for December - most will appear from May 25.

My view is that these changes are the result of positive management attitude leading the franchise.

I was certainly impressed last weekend on a rare visit to their "non London" area. Staff (in SouthEastern uniform - that's important) travelling out by train to litter-pick etc at stations - immediately gives a "we care" impression. Sure there are still lots of things to niggle regular passengers, but those "little things" count.

 

[ScotGG]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clmy41lz1rdo:

Bully for them... How come there is money to employ staff and lease rolling stock for a better service in the SE, when rail is almost unuseable in the North of England because of shockingly bad reliability resulting from staff and rolling stock shortages?
Especially when peak-time services are notoriously financially inefficent (for a provider) due to poor stock and staff utilisation.

Well SE saw heavy cuts in 2022 and many lines are still someway behind service levels in 2020 even after this modest increase. There's also no additional leasing of trains. It's using existing stock.

For example the Slade Green rounders mentioned used to run all day every day every 30 mins. Now it's about two in total in the rush hour. It's going up to about four in the rush hour. Still none throughout the majority of the day. The Vic services were every 15 mins as Metro routes serving densely populated areas. Now every 30 mins and will go back to pre-cut levels. Those aren't incredible frequencies.

Also the argument that it's well staffed is simply wrong. Staff shortages on the SouthEastern network have been huge in recent years. No staff often see on busy stations and mass ticket office closures have been the norm. Don't forget that's often in addition to DOO.

The Networkers are clapped out and internally worse than much of Northerns stock.

I was certainly impressed last weekend on a rare visit to their "non London" area. Staff (in SouthEastern uniform - that's important) travelling out by train to litter-pick etc at stations - immediately gives a "we care" impression. Sure there are still lots of things to niggle regular passengers, but those "little things" count.

The long distance lines and areas of Kent get a lot better service and TLC than suburban routes in London and into Dartford.

 

[The exile]

The long distance lines and areas of Kent get a lot better service and TLC than suburban routes in London and into Dartford.

Let’s hope it spreads - not only inwards to the suburban network, but also to out to other TOCs. Clearly things like cleaning get done elsewhere - it was the visibility of staff in company uniform (not anonymous contractors) and travelling by train to do it (including on a Sunday!)

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Will this mean the restoration of 2tph between Ashford and Victoria (via Maidstone East) all day and at weekends? Oh dear maybe not....

 

[dk1]

This is very good news in my opinion. Well done SouthEastern.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This is very good news in my opinion. Well done SouthEastern.

I agree - I just love positive news like this.

 

[bramling]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clmy41lz1rdo:

Bully for them... How come there is money to employ staff and lease rolling stock for a better service in the SE, when rail is almost unuseable in the North of England because of shockingly bad reliability resulting from staff and rolling stock shortages?
Especially when peak-time services are notoriously financially inefficent (for a provider) due to poor stock and staff utilisation.

Why does everything have to be turned into a north versus south rant?

Things aren’t great in the south either. SWR’s rolling stock has been trimmed to the bone especially for their metro operations. Southeastern’s metro routes are a lot more sparsely served than they once were. GTR has lost three complete fleets with only a handful of replacements and is having to squeeze their fleets, as well as suffering constant cancellations especially on Thameslink. Chiltern is a shadow of its former self. And that’s before one considers the shambles that is LU at the moment, complete with its 50-year-old fleets on two lines, one of which has no replacement plan in place, and issues like the Central, Jubilee and Northern line fleets having run into problems, the Central Line in particular having been going on for decades.

 

[AndrewE]

Why does everything have to be turned into a north versus south rant?

Things aren’t great in the south either. SWR’s rolling stock has been trimmed to the bone especially for their metro operations. Southeastern’s metro routes are a lot more sparsely served than they once were. GTR has lost three complete fleets with only a handful of replacements and is having to squeeze their fleets, as well as suffering constant cancellations especially on Thameslink. Chiltern is a shadow of its former self. And that’s before one considers the shambles that is LU at the moment, complete with its 50-year-old fleets on two lines, one of which has no replacement plan in place, and issues like the Central, Jubilee and Northern line fleets having run into problems, the Central Line in particular having been going on for decades.

at least the railway is useable in the SE - and bloody good if you look at the area which includes the Overground. Try relying on it in Northern land. Most of my days out trying to use it have been spoilt by cancellations, embarrassing me by usually affecting the people I have been going out to meet. At least they have been getting some of their fare back.

 

[bramling]

at least the railway is useable in the SE - and bloody good if you look at the area which includes the Overground. Try relying on it in Northern land. Most of my days out trying to use it have been spoilt by cancellations, embarrassing me by usually affecting the people I have been going out to meet. At least they have been getting some of their fare back.

Depends how you define useable. I used the train to get to/from London last week, and pretty much every journey was either delayed, or affected by some kind of problem or cancellation. So definitely not all milk and honey by a very long stretch.

And, whilst seems to be okay at the moment, there have been plenty of weekends where the local GTR service has been essentially unfit for purpose, especially on Sundays.

Most of the rail network has issues in one form or another.

 

[Goldfish62]

The outline details were given in Modern Railways a couple of months ago. The primary aim is to restore at least 4tph off peak at all metro stations. A far cry from SWR.

 

[paul1609]

at least the railway is useable in the SE - and bloody good if you look at the area which includes the Overground. Try relying on it in Northern land. Most of my days out trying to use it have been spoilt by cancellations, embarrassing me by usually affecting the people I have been going out to meet. At least they have been getting some of their fare back.

The problem is that most Northerners seem to think of "the SE"= London Suburbs wheras from my local station down to Southampton by rail is 115mile, Margate is 45 miles. The total Journey is just short of that from Liverpool Lime Street to Durham and thats only the bit of the SE in the south, theres the bit in the North (of the river) Essex and all that

 

[Watershed]

Funny how timetable increases tend to get 'bigged up' by referring to trains per week, whilst timetable cutbacks are minimised by talking about the number of daily trains removed in each direction!

220 trains a week is virtually nothing in the scheme of things - it's probably no more than 1 or 2% of the total number of trains SE run. There is still a long way to go before pre-Covid timetable is reinstated.

 

[JonathanH]

There is still a long way to go before pre-Covid timetable is reinstated.

Why is the 'pre-Covid timetable' always seen as the aim? Passenger flows have changed for good, revenue has diminished, and a recast which actually reflects the new patterns of demand may give a better timetable than operated 'pre-Covid' .

 

[43066]

I was certainly impressed last weekend on a rare visit to their "non London" area. Staff (in SouthEastern uniform - that's important) travelling out by train to litter-pick etc at stations - immediately gives a "we care" impression. Sure there are still lots of things to niggle regular passengers, but those "little things" count.

Speaking as a daily user, SE is a very solid operation. The Networkers are in a poor state due to the dft not sanctioning a refurb - partly due to uncertainly over how long they have left.

Well SE saw heavy cuts in 2022 and many lines are still someway behind service levels in 2020 even after this modest increase. There's also no additional leasing of trains. It's using existing stock.

For example the Slade Green rounders mentioned used to run all day every day every 30 mins. Now it's about two in total in the rush hour. It's going up to about four in the rush hour. Still none throughout the majority of the day. The Vic services were every 15 mins as Metro routes serving densely populated areas. Now every 30 mins and will go back to pre-cut levels. Those aren't incredible frequencies.

Also the argument that it's well staffed is simply wrong. Staff shortages on the SouthEastern network have been huge in recent years. No staff often see on busy stations and mass ticket office closures have been the norm. Don't forget that's often in addition to DOO.

The Networkers are clapped out and internally worse than much of Northerns stock.


The long distance lines and areas of Kent get a lot better service and TLC than suburban routes in London and into Dartford.

Fully agreed.

Why does everything have to be turned into a north versus south rant?

Things aren’t great in the south either. SWR’s rolling stock has been trimmed to the bone especially for their metro operations. Southeastern’s metro routes are a lot more sparsely served than they once were. GTR has lost three complete fleets with only a handful of replacements and is having to squeeze their fleets, as well as suffering constant cancellations especially on Thameslink. Chiltern is a shadow of its former self. And that’s before one considers the shambles that is LU at the moment, complete with its 50-year-old fleets on two lines, one of which has no replacement plan in place, and issues like the Central, Jubilee and Northern line fleets having run into problems, the Central Line in particular having been going on for decades.

Agreed. People should lobby for improvements in the north rather than resenting good service provision in the south. And, exactly as you say, it isn’t all perfect down here by any means!

Why is the 'pre-Covid timetable' always seen as the aim? Passenger flows have changed for good, revenue has diminished, and a recast which actually reflects the new patterns of demand may give a better timetable than operated 'pre-Covid' .

Because passenger numbers are now approaching pre covid levels, so it makes sense that timetables move in that direction. Covid has been a blip, rather than a permanent change - much as the last government liked to pretend otherwise to justify cost cutting.

 

[JonathanH]

Because passenger numbers are now approaching pre covid levels, so it makes sense that timetables move in that direction. Covid has been a blip, rather than a permanent change - much as the last government liked to pretend otherwise to justify cost cutting.

Passenger numbers across the network may be approaching the numbers before 2020, but that doesn't mean the patterns of travel are the same as they were then. The move to working from home is very much here to stay, particularly for people who travel further to work. Incremental improvements in timetables are welcome but that should not be without a review that the right services are running.

 

[NSEWonderer]

This is very good news in my opinion. Well done SouthEastern.

Explains the need for 170 drivers in the recent campaign which before this news I couldn't believe it was down to just retirements and general staff turnover.

 

[PGAT]

Why is the 'pre-Covid timetable' always seen as the aim? Passenger flows have changed for good, revenue has diminished, and a recast which actually reflects the new patterns of demand may give a better timetable than operated 'pre-Covid' .

Because that allows actual growth in passengers. If we keep services cut we get stuck in a negative feedback loop of woeful service leading to woeful usage and so on. Is it a coincidence that TfL services have more or less recovered their pre-covid passenger numbers while TOCs like SWR and Southern struggle far behind?

 

[yorksrob]

Alas, still no Network Express from the Kent coast to Charing Cross via Tonbridge.

 

[Class 466]

Why is the 'pre-Covid timetable' always seen as the aim? Passenger flows have changed for good, revenue has diminished, and a recast which actually reflects the new patterns of demand may give a better timetable than operated 'pre-Covid' .

The pre Covid “22-Minute Peak” timetable will never return to Southeastern.

(The 22 minute peak was a timetable where each service group out of Cannon Street & Charing Cross operated at a frequency of 22 minutes to maximise use of the capacity available) - so for example Departures from Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells were at 1703,1725,1747 etc.

It was good for capacity but very poor for performance and the tiniest issue would snowball into the close of service because of it.

 

[43066]

Passenger numbers across the network may be approaching the numbers before 2020, but that doesn't mean the patterns of travel are the same as they were then. The move to working from home is very much here to stay, particularly for people who travel further to work. Incremental improvements in timetables are welcome but that should not be without a review that the right services are running.

Well yes, but AIUI the traditional “peak” has been making something of a come back recently. Hence something similar to the pre Covid timetable is inevitable. Even off peak Orpington to Victoria services have been lagging well behind demand for many months now.

Alas, still no Network Express from the Kent coast to Charing Cross via Tonbridge.

Well we know they got rid of that to try and encourage people into HS1.

The pre Covid “22-Minute Peak” timetable will never return to Southeastern.

Never say never!

 

[paul1609]

Alas, still no Network Express from the Kent coast to Charing Cross via Tonbridge.

Thats never going to happen I think the through roads at paddock Wood have been out of use for about a year now and Ashford will be the next to go.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it a coincidence that TfL services have more or less recovered their pre-covid passenger numbers while TOCs like SWR and Southern struggle far behind?

It is broadly consistent with the distances people travel for those journeys and the places that TfL serve compared with SWR and Southern.

I am not arguing that it is incorrect to operate more services on SWR, Southern and Southeastern. I am arguing that the 2020 timetable may not be the appropriate target now.

 

[Class 466]

Thats never going to happen I think the through roads at paddock Wood have been out of use for about a year now and Ashford will be the next to go

Both are still in use - freight along there isn’t all routed via the platforms. Delayed services running fast still use the through lines at Paddock Wood & Headcorn.

 

[43066]

Both are still in use - freight along there isn’t all routed via the platforms. Delayed services running fast still use the through lines at Paddock Wood & Headcorn.

There used to be ECS workings that used them too. One of my more memorable drives as a trainee was sitting with the speedometer pegged at 100mph between Tonbridge and Ashford to go through the wash road, then onwards to Ramsgate.

 

[PGAT]

I am not arguing that it is incorrect to operate more services on SWR and Southern. I am arguing that the 2020 timetable may not be the appropriate target now.

Perhaps rush hour should be treated differently to pre-covid but I am of the opinion that for off-peak and weekend services at least, it would be a sensible target. Using the Penge East line as an example, aiming for 2tph to Blackfriars all the way through the peak probably isn’t reasonable, but aiming to restore the pre-covid turn-up-and-go service certainly is. As you said yourself travel
patterns have changed and we should be focusing on catering for leisure travellers