Rail lines that could be converted in to busways?

[adc82140]

Reading this thread over in the buses forum https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what’s-the-point-of-a-guided-busway.253465/ got me thinking.

Are there any branch lines that would provide a better and cheaper service if converted to bus routes (guided or unguided)? I know we're all rail enthusiasts here, and I'm not trying to be a poundstore Dr Beeching, but some lines just don't make sense to me.

For example Maidenhead to Marlow. A roughly hourly service using a 2 car DMU in an otherwise electrified area, with an awkward reversal at Bourne End which restricts the stock that can be used. Surely it would be more cost effective to turn the route into a bus way and run a double decker every 15 minutes or so? Perhaps some of them could continue to High Wycombe on existing roads as well.

Any other ideas?

 

[randyrippley]

Settle-Carlisle
Settle-Carnforth

 

[AlastairFraser]

Reading this thread over in the buses forum https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what’s-the-point-of-a-guided-busway.253465/ got me thinking.

Are there any branch lines that would provide a better and cheaper service if converted to bus routes (guided or unguided)? I know we're all rail enthusiasts here, and I'm not trying to be a poundstore Dr Beeching, but some lines just don't make sense to me.

For example Maidenhead to Marlow. A roughly hourly service using a 2 car DMU in an otherwise electrified area, with an awkward reversal at Bourne End which restricts the stock that can be used. Surely it would be more cost effective to turn the route into a bus way and run a double decker every 15 minutes or so? Perhaps some of them could continue to High Wycombe on existing roads as well.

Any other ideas?

Absolutely not with Maidenhead and Marlow, with the numerous low bridges in the area - there's no way you're getting a double decker through there, and any sizeable single decker is generally difficult in Marlow, due to some very narrow roads.

 

[PGAT]

I always felt something better could be done with the Caterham Line as it is so close to the Oxted line and there’s always a back and forth “chicken and the egg” problem which just keeps services and passengers on both lines reduced. Maybe closing the whole line to Caterham (other than a short junction to Caterham itself) would allow a bus lane or something useful to be put in its place

 

[AlastairFraser]

Most of the lines that could be converted to busways would be better as trams.
Maidenhead to Marlow a great example, with a tram continuing from Bourne end on the old alignment to High Wycombe,and a tram branch, as current, to Marlow.
Some like e.g. Slough to Windsor would be better as extensions of other railway lines (in that case Waterloo to Windsor and Eton Riverside).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Settle-Carlisle
Settle-Carnforth

Both very poor examples due to the uncongested roads. If you're going to do rural ones it might as well just be a road bus.

For it to be beneficial you need a congested road system and another benefit to bus over rail eg fanning out at one end or getting closer to a town centre.

Here's one: Stourbridge Town. Could be used for all buses going out that way, not just the one to the junction.

 

[bramling]

Reading this thread over in the buses forum https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what’s-the-point-of-a-guided-busway.253465/ got me thinking.

Are there any branch lines that would provide a better and cheaper service if converted to bus routes (guided or unguided)? I know we're all rail enthusiasts here, and I'm not trying to be a poundstore Dr Beeching, but some lines just don't make sense to me.

For example Maidenhead to Marlow. A roughly hourly service using a 2 car DMU in an otherwise electrified area, with an awkward reversal at Bourne End which restricts the stock that can be used. Surely it would be more cost effective to turn the route into a bus way and run a double decker every 15 minutes or so? Perhaps some of them could continue to High Wycombe on existing roads as well.

Any other ideas?

IMO definitely not Marlow. The current rail service is actually quite well used, which is a fair achievement considering the setup is rather awkward. The best thing to happen here would be to restore the railway to High Wycombe, however due to the amount of building on the former trackbed I don't expect to see this happen. Changing the current layout to support a proper 2tph Maidenhead to Marlow service would be useful, but again not easy to achieve in practice.

 

[AlastairFraser]

IMO definitely not Marlow. The current rail service is actually quite well used, which is a fair achievement considering the setup is rather awkward. The best thing to happen here would be to restore the railway to High Wycombe, however due to the amount of building on the former trackbed I don't expect to see this happen. Changing the current layout to support a proper 2tph Maidenhead to Marlow service would be useful, but again not easy to achieve in practice.

Bucks Council have been considering a tram on the alignment for a while IIRC

Here's one: Stourbridge Town. Could be used for all buses going out that way, not just the one to the junction.

Should be part of the Midland Metro if it ever gets extended beyond Brierley Hill.

 

[Hundorp]

deleted

 

[The Planner]

Could a two track formation actually conform to the standard width for a two lane road? The DMRB (design manual for roads and bridges) states that a two lane all purpose rural road needs 1m hard strips on both sides with 3.65m wide lanes. That is a total of 9.3 metres wide with no allowance for a verge. If you consider an old fashioned railway width of a cess, 4 foot, 6 foot, 4 foot, cess you are at 14 feet/4,3m plus whatever cess width.

 

[Mikey C]

Bucks Council have been considering a tram on the alignment for a while IIRC

I assume a tram would be able to go directly from Cookham to Marlow via a new curve, bypassing the current Bourne End station?

 

[furnessvale]

Once the full costs of a dedicated bus road are loaded onto that bus service, it becomes every bit as uneconomic as the rail service it replaced. Add on the cost of conversion and the case is hopeless.

 

[PTR 444]

Tattenham Corner/Caterham Branches
Greenford Branch
Bromley North Branch
Island Line
Barton on Humber Branch
Gunnislake Branch
Maesteg Branch
Conway Valley Line
Morecambe/Heysham Branch

 

[JonathanH]

Could a two track formation actually conform to the standard width for a two lane road?

It seems to have worked in Gosport that a two lane road has been built on the former railway line through a built up area. I guess it depends on how generous the track bed was.

 

[bluenoxid]

Isn’t it Transport Watch or something similar that proposes wholesale conversion of the rail network.

Watford-St Albans is frequently raised but I am more inclined to suggest a station skipping pattern or station closure as per a proposal that I think Bald Rick put forward before tarmacing it

I did some digging and found a file that suggested that Gosport might have got dispensation to reduce the width of the road (not including verges) to 6.2m.

 

[swt_passenger]

It seems to have worked in Gosport that a two lane road has been built on the former railway line through a built up area. I guess it depends on how generous the track bed was.

It included a lot of widening of the original embankments and shallow cuttings, all recovered with new vegetation now of course, so hard to tell.

Except at the bus stops there’s no footway, and no side hardstrips. But they also left a fair number of pinch points at arched road overbridges, where there’s only a single lane marked under the middle of the bridge, I think it’s first come first served, there are no priority arrows or give way signs for the buses, IIRC.

 

[12C]

Once the full costs of a dedicated bus road are loaded onto that bus service, it becomes every bit as uneconomic as the rail service it replaced. Add on the cost of conversion and the case is hopeless.

After the initial one off conversion cost, a guided busway would no doubt be much cheaper to run.

For most rural rail services to run they depend on a driver, guard, several signallers/crossing keepers (if still manually signalled which many rural lines are), plus various staff in the background such as MOM’s, control, and station staff in some cases. Then add in the leasing cost of the unit, fuel and the cost of maintaining the often ancient permanent way and signalling found on rural routes.

This compares with a busway which would need far less inspection/maintenance than a railway, virtually no signalling apart from maybe a few traffic lights, a bus which would likely be more fuel efficient than most DMUs (or even electric) and would be far cheaper to lease than a rail vehicle. It would also need far fewer staff to operate it (likely just the bus driver plus background staff in control).

 

[Mikey C]

After the initial one off conversion cost, a guided busway would no doubt be much cheaper to run.

For most rural rail services to run they depend on a driver, guard, several signallers/crossing keepers (if still manually signalled which many rural lines are), plus various staff in the background such as MOM’s, control, and station staff in some cases. Then add in the leasing cost of the unit, fuel and the cost of maintaining the often ancient permanent way and signalling found on rural routes.

This compares with a busway which would need far less inspection/maintenance than a railway, virtually no signalling apart from maybe a few traffic lights, a bus which would likely be more fuel efficient than most DMUs (or even electric) and would be far cheaper to lease than a rail vehicle. It would also need far fewer staff to operate it (likely just the bus driver plus background staff in control).

The BIG advantage of a guided busway, is that the buses can continue onwards at either end to somewhere more useful than the rail terminus, many of which are poorly located. Even being able to continue another mile or so to the town centre, retail park or football ground, suddenly makes public transport more appealing than taking a train and having to walk a mile at the end.

 

[randyrippley]

Could a two track formation actually conform to the standard width for a two lane road? The DMRB (design manual for roads and bridges) states that a two lane all purpose rural road needs 1m hard strips on both sides with 3.65m wide lanes. That is a total of 9.3 metres wide with no allowance for a verge. If you consider an old fashioned railway width of a cess, 4 foot, 6 foot, 4 foot, cess you are at 14 feet/4,3m plus whatever cess width.

There was no difficulty in converting part of the Yeovil-Taunton line into the A3088 back in the 1970s. That was originally built as a single track broad gauge line. Only possible issue was a couple of road overbridges which had to be underpinned and the road dropped to get overhead width clearance

 

[Mikey C]

There was no difficulty in converting part of the Yeovil-Taunton line into the A3088 back in the 1970s. That was originally built as a single track broad gauge line. Only possible issue was a couple of road overbridges which had to be underpinned and the road dropped to get overhead width clearance

Yeadon Way in Blackpool follows the direct line into Blackpool Central

 

[Hardcastle]

Settle-Carlisle
Settle-Carnforth

Really considering the distance i don't think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tattenham Corner/Caterham Branches
Greenford Branch
Bromley North Branch
Island Line
Barton on Humber Branch
Gunnislake Branch
Maesteg Branch
Conway Valley Line
Morecambe/Heysham Branch

Not sure any of these are good examples due to existing uncongested road infrastructure.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I assume a tram would be able to go directly from Cookham to Marlow via a new curve, bypassing the current Bourne End station?

Perhaps, although Marlow would want an easy interchange to HW at Bourne End, so you might want to stick platforms the other side of the current junction at Bourne End, linked by a footpath.

After the initial one off conversion cost, a guided busway would no doubt be much cheaper to run.

For most rural rail services to run they depend on a driver, guard, several signallers/crossing keepers (if still manually signalled which many rural lines are), plus various staff in the background such as MOM’s, control, and station staff in some cases. Then add in the leasing cost of the unit, fuel and the cost of maintaining the often ancient permanent way and signalling found on rural routes.

This compares with a busway which would need far less inspection/maintenance than a railway, virtually no signalling apart from maybe a few traffic lights, a bus which would likely be more fuel efficient than most DMUs (or even electric) and would be far cheaper to lease than a rail vehicle. It would also need far fewer staff to operate it (likely just the bus driver plus background staff in control).

The problem is buses need modifications to use guided busways (most of the busways that have been built on ex railway infrastructure are guided busways), resulting in extra cost and cancellations if the bus company can't get the right one out the depot.
We also get into stupid situations, such as one lane of the guided busway near Hills Road in Cambridge being closed, due to insufficient width of the busway: see here - https://busandtrainuser.com/2022/01/25/cambridgeshire-guided-busway-in-trouble-again/.

A tram needs less space, so shouldn't have the same issue.

 

[adc82140]

Not sure any of these are good examples due to existing uncongested road infrastructure.

The Isle of Wight most certainly is. A bus from Shanklin to Ryde on existing roads is a very frustrating experience. I was surprised though when the Class 483s reached end of life that another heavy rail solution was found. The island line was ripe for trams or light rail.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The Isle of Wight most certainly is. A bus from Shanklin to Ryde on existing roads is a very frustrating experience. I was surprised though when the Class 483s reached end of life that another heavy rail solution was found. The island line was ripe for trams or light rail.

Trams, maybe (you'd need a lot more money for a couple more lines to make a worthwhile investment though).

A busway, certainly not - the whole reason tube trains are used is Ryde Tunnel's roof is very low I think. It would cost an absolute bomb to rebore it and fit a bus in there.
Don't ever think you could send buses off-alignment before the tunnel too - Ryde would turn into a car park with all the passengers heading for the Eastern IoW resorts from the hovercraft and fastcat.
The only significant place that would receive a slightly better service is Ventnor - firstly, that's much smaller than the others, and, secondly, the railway plus bus combo (the train takes you direct from the ferry or hovercraft to Shanklin station, where the bus calls at.)

 

[MPW]

Could a two track formation actually conform to the standard width for a two lane road? The DMRB (design manual for roads and bridges) states that a two lane all purpose rural road needs 1m hard strips on both sides with 3.65m wide lanes. That is a total of 9.3 metres wide with no allowance for a verge. If you consider an old fashioned railway width of a cess, 4 foot, 6 foot, 4 foot, cess you are at 14 feet/4,3m plus whatever cess width.

Cambridgeshire busway is 6m wide. Looking at bromley North branch on Google maps the track bed looks about 7m but only 5m between platforms at Sundridge Park station. But not a big deal considering you would have to resurface anyway.

A busway there would allow the route to easily continue to bromley south on dual carriageway and at North end to....[resists the urge]

 

[The Planner]

There was no difficulty in converting part of the Yeovil-Taunton line into the A3088 back in the 1970s. That was originally built as a single track broad gauge line. Only possible issue was a couple of road overbridges which had to be underpinned and the road dropped to get overhead width clearance

Interesting, looks like the over bridge of Lower Town is over 10m wide, possibly as it was broad gauge? Marsh Lane is new and easily 10m. Though if you look at the bridge with Montacute Road, it certainly would fall foul of standards now as it looks 7m wide, there certainly isn't a verge.

Cambridgeshire busway is 6m wide. Looking at bromley North branch on Google maps the track bed looks about 7m but only 5m between platforms at Sundridge Park station. But not a big deal considering you would have to resurface anyway.

That is different though as the bus isn't going to move about.

Yeadon Way in Blackpool follows the direct line into Blackpool Central

And that is sub standard to current measuring it as well. Clearly if derogations are signed off its moot, but clearly like the railway a lot of bodges are made to make it work.

 

[yorksrob]

It's intriguing that even though this dreadful idea was discredited in Sir Peter Parker's day, elements of the railway fraternity still seem to feel the need to return to it as a dog returns to its vomit.

 

[ac6000cw]

We also get into stupid situations, such as one lane of the guided busway near Hills Road in Cambridge being closed, due to insufficient width of the busway: see here - https://busandtrainuser.com/2022/01/25/cambridgeshire-guided-busway-in-trouble-again/.

A tram needs less space, so shouldn't have the same issue.

The problem isn't the width of the busway as such, it's because they squeezed both the busway and a shared use pedestrian/cycle path alongside it into too little width, resulting in in very little clearance between the two. You'd have the same safety issue with a tramway plus a busy pedestrian/cycle path right alongside it with trams going past at speed (a quick search suggests modern trams are typically a bit wider than a bus).

 

[stuu]

A busway, certainly not - the whole reason tube trains are used is Ryde Tunnel's roof is very low I think. It would cost an absolute bomb to rebore it and fit a bus in there.
Don't ever think you could send buses off-alignment before the tunnel too - Ryde would turn into a car park with all the passengers heading for the Eastern IoW resorts from the hovercraft and fastcat.

Single decker buses are usually less than 3m tall, they would comfortably fit - the 484s are 3.6m.

The problem isn't the width of the busway as such, it's because they squeezed both the busway and a shared use pedestrian/cycle path alongside it into too little width, resulting in in very little clearance between the two. You'd have the same safety issue with a tramway plus a busy pedestrian/cycle path right alongside it with trams going past at speed (a quick search suggests modern trams are typically a bit wider than a bus).

Isn't a fence the obvious solution? Although having looked at the photos, I'm not sure how that is any different from any other road on the entire planet