Rail nationalisation: ideas, suggestions, predictions etc

[yorkie]

It’s very likely to mean that, yes.

Of course the travelling public lack the knowledge to play the system, don’t benefit from the savings, so won’t view simplification in the negative way many on here do.

People who purchase good value fares would absolutely view it as a negative if their fares are withdrawn or increased in price.

Anyone can get good value fares (where available) without any knowledge these days, and it isn't "playing the system" at all; indeed it is the costly TOCs (e.g. TPE, XC) - who price fares at a premium - who are the ones gaming the system.

A lot of people seem to think fares will be going down. They won’t be, and Labour have been careful to avoid expressly suggesting they will, but if people believe that it shows their message has been delivered exactly as intended!

Indeed; I agree that Labour have not signalled any intention of reducing fares, and we should not expect this will happen.

Labour’s shadow transport secretary said that they would be simplifying fares and that they wouldn’t necessarily get any cheaper.

The answer is right now is that we don’t know which one they’d pick to continue, but I doubt they’ll pick the cheapest!

Indeed; simplification very rarely results in the lowest prices fares being retained.

 

[infobleep]

There are so many today including those split-ticketing sites, will split-ticketing even be necessary? Will just having the one company remove these irregularities?

No, unless they really radicalise train travel and/or change rules on starting and/or finishing short and/or disallow a break of journey on route.

The problem with, for example, TFL gaining control of Thameslink is the number of people who would be impacted yet would be unable to vote on the Mayor who is responsible for TFL.

On the north side the London boundary ends around Elstree & Borehamwood, yet the Thameslink provides the majority of passenger services for the next 40 miles on the Midland Mainline, over on the GN side Hadley Wood is the boundary yet Peterborough is 65 miles away. On the south side you've got about 50 miles from Brighton to the London boundary - that's an awful lot of people who would find their train services being set by a politician who they would have no way of changing if they don't agree with them.

I work in Greater London but can't vote for the mayor and I'm sure I'm far from alone.

Possibly not, but you might well do so in a supermarket.

Indeed you do when they have promos.

I think with the London metro services, it wouldn't too hard to transfer some services to TfL. Southern has a few services that could transfer to London Overground and some of the services that serve parts of Surrey could fall under TfL purview.

South Western Railway has a few routes that could easily be transferred to TfL like the Kingston loop and the Shepperton and Hampton Court branches plus perhaps the lines that go to Dorking could be contender. If it served by London buses like Epsom for example then it should be part of a wider London Overground.

Do you think any hus from outside London into London should also be TfL run?

For example 715 and 515, which both statt in Surrey and terminate in Kingston? After all if metro trains into London should be TfL why not buses?

 

[HST43257]

This may be idiotic, but I really think there could be merit in getting rid of the revenue abstraction and the ORCATS raid concept altogether. Let’s say we move into a GBR model (nationalised or not). What if we could simplify tickets to fixed, off peak/semi flex (as appropriate) and full flex, all ”GBR Only”. But then let open access do what they want, within reason. Perhaps pathing restrictions around GBR operator as current but no revenue abstraction etc, so effectively freedom of movement around the GBR operator. Note that I’m not saying GBR operators can’t have competition themselves, and can have low advance fares as appropriate.

My real point is that we aren’t going to optimise rail usage if open access don’t get a good chance. Take Italo in Italy. They have pretty much equal access to high speed infrastructure in Italy, and it’s notably the case that the majority of Freccia and Italo fares have kept fairly low (in my experience at least).

Use open access to drive prices down and passenger numbers up. (Disclaimer: I know Labour have avoided saying prices will drop but competition naturally does one or both of improving quality and dropping prices).

 

[yorksrob]

Labour’s shadow transport secretary said that they would be simplifying fares and that they wouldn’t necessarily get any cheaper.

The answer is right now is that we don’t know which one they’d pick to continue, but I doubt they’ll pick the cheapest!

In that case, they might as well drop simplification altogether and stick with the current system.

Passengers and prospective passengers who use trains have three top priorities. Fares, fares and fares. Any government that doesn't acknowledge this in some way will find that their cherished railway policy is a very damp squib.

 

[GardenRail]

Nationalisation = Lack of Investment and Closures

 

[yorksrob]

Nationalisation = Lack of Investment and Closures

Not from the mid 1980's it didn't.

 

[irish_rail]

Although you have just pointed out in another thread how much more efficient GWR is by not having intercity and local trains separated.

You obviously don't need to separate the traincrew though! You can enjoy an intercity brand, with intercity liveried rolling stock. Yes the driver would be in a generic GBR uniform and may work other services that day, but the bit the public see would be branded and operated as Intercity. Would just add a little prestige to the service and in my view be popular with travellers.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

You obviously don't need to separate the traincrew though! You can enjoy an intercity brand, with intercity liveried rolling stock. Yes the driver would be in a generic GBR uniform and may work other services that day, but the bit the public see would be branded and operated as Intercity. Would just add a little prestige to the service and in my view be popular with travellers.

However we have intercity stock on arrival at Penzance then form a regional service back to Plymouth etc, it’s not just the crews which interwork.

Likewise an Intercity service from Taunton to Paddington is formed off a local stopping service from Bristol etc.

 

[irish_rail]

However we have intercity stock on arrival at Penzance then form a regional service back to Plymouth etc, it’s not just the crews which interwork.

Likewise an Intercity service from Taunton to Paddington is formed off a local stopping service from Bristol etc.

Not all that different from the way Intercity sets where utilised in the 1990s then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In a European sense IC is a service package (though one that's been heavily diluted) including features like a certain level of quality of seating (ha!) and catering. No reason IC stock couldn't be used for regional services, it just won't have the other features.

 

[Meerkat]

What does seem to be pie in the sky is the best price guarantee. Given that even these forums require experts to wade through the tangled mess of ticket pricing to help build ticketing search engines, what chance will a new government have?

Presumably the best price guarantee will drop revenue, leading to a general rise in fares. Which will annoy those who know how to do split ticketing etc.
Is there any reason the government would want to merge TOCs? Doesn't that lead to a mess of different wages and T&Cs, and enable the unions to bring the whole country's railway to a stand?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably the best price guarantee will drop revenue, leading to a general rise in fares. Which will annoy those who know how to do split ticketing etc.

This is about the worst ever reason not to do something. Everyone should easily be able to get the best prices, it should not require background knowledge.

To be fair by Trainline offering splits (rather than just more niche but better retailers like Trainsplit) this is mostly the case now.

 

[Meerkat]

This is about the worst ever reason not to do something. Everyone should easily be able to get the best prices, it should not require background knowledge.

To be fair by Trainline offering splits (rather than just more niche but better retailers like Trainsplit) this is mostly the case now.

Sure, but it will be unintended consequences for some of those proposing this.
How would they do it, just give split tickets....with all the confusion that will cause the recipients (do I have to get off? But I don't want to go there? Where on earth is that?!)

 

[irish_rail]

Presumably the best price guarantee will drop revenue, leading to a general rise in fares. Which will annoy those who know how to do split ticketing etc.
Is there any reason the government would want to merge TOCs? Doesn't that lead to a mess of different wages and T&Cs, and enable the unions to bring the whole country's railway to a stand?

The unions can already bring the vast majority of the country to a stand. It's not a good reason for not doing it. The potential gains of standardisation and streamlining of staff outweighs the union thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sure, but it will be unintended consequences for some of those proposing this.
How would they do it, just give split tickets....with all the confusion that will cause the recipients (do I have to get off? But I don't want to go there? Where on earth is that?!)

LNER probably give you an idea how it could be done - they issue a through ticket at the split price by applying a discount. Only for Advances though, which is the main place the issue comes up. The reason you get so many split Advances is that for a through ticket you need the same quota level available throughout.

For walk-ups you just need to run some batch jobs to identify the anomalies and keep tweaking them until they mostly go away. It's a hard thing to fix by hand but much easier when you can run a job to identify them. Must admit I was surprised to see anomalies in the new Project Oval fares - but there are some!

 

[Tramfan]

Presumably the best price guarantee will drop revenue, leading to a general rise in fares. Which will annoy those who know how to do split ticketing etc.
Is there any reason the government would want to merge TOCs? Doesn't that lead to a mess of different wages and T&Cs, and enable the unions to bring the whole country's railway to a stand?

Indeed, aren't there different T&Cs within some TOCs even (thinking Northern in particular?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, aren't there different T&Cs within some TOCs even (thinking Northern in particular?)

Northern never fully unified T&Cs between east and west, but this isn't unusual where companies have taken over other companies - I'm personally on a very old set of T&C that predates my current employer by a takeover, a spinout and another takeover! It's not something to get hung up on.

 

[Andyh82]

In that case, they might as well drop simplification altogether and stick with the current system.

Passengers and prospective passengers who use trains have three top priorities. Fares, fares and fares. Any government that doesn't acknowledge this in some way will find that their cherished railway policy is a very damp squib.

I think they will rely on the fact that a lot of people don’t know how to get the cheapest tickets

How often do you see a tweet from a celeb or some sort of influencer going viral because they’ve allegedly paid more to travel from London to Manchester than what Ryanair charges to fly to Benidorm

The responses are all #gettoriesout etc, but when you actually look at it, they’ve bought a first class open flexible anytime return on the day

So in their eyes if Labour reduce these fares it’s a win, but if they scrap the ‘complicated’ restricted fares to simplify the fares it will be a lose to others

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they will rely on the fact that a lot of people don’t know how to get the cheapest tickets

How often do you see a tweet from a celeb or some sort of influencer going viral because they’ve allegedly paid more to travel from London to Manchester than what Ryanair charges to fly to Benidorm

The responses are all #gettoriesout etc, but when you actually look at it, they’ve bought a first class open flexible anytime return on the day

So in their eyes if Labour reduce these fares it’s a win, but if they scrap the ‘complicated’ restricted fares to simplify the fares it will be a lose to others

Restricted fares need not be complex. For instance, "NOT INTERCITY" is a pretty clear replacement for LNR Only and the likes. And Advances are pretty simple - use your booked trains! (Though I would certainly remove the break of journey restrictions from them - yes the odd person might be able to get a "workaround" bargain, but overall the reputational damage of being petty like Northern are is worse).

 

[infobleep]

If they turn every company nationalised into one company, then they will need to change many tickets because tickets cannot be restricted by brand.

 

[JamesT]

If they turn every company nationalised into one company, then they will need to change many tickets because tickets cannot be restricted by brand.

If they're making such large changes as consolidating down to one company, they can easily change the rules to allow restriction by brand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they turn every company nationalised into one company, then they will need to change many tickets because tickets cannot be restricted by brand.

You'd still have brands like INTERCITY. That's the only basis on which restricting makes sense.

The law is not immutable.

 

[Thirteen]

I think with Sadiq Khan promising to bring some London metro routes under TfL, I suspect we could see that happen under a Labour Government especially with Southeastern which is DfT OLR so could envision an arrangement happening within the next two years.

 

[infobleep]

You'd still have brands like INTERCITY. That's the only basis on which restricting makes sense.

The law is not immutable.

Indeed it isn't but they would need to change it and it would need to take up parliamentary time. Would they be willing to give this time over?

Using an exa.ple im aware off, where laws need updating but have not been. The street naming and numbering laws on this country are antiquated and required parliamentary time to be updated but I don't see that time forthcoming. The closest to this in recent times was Mr Gove's initiated consultation on renaming of streets. The consultation document relating to it contained inaccuracies within it l, with regards to the laws as they hadn't sort any expert legal advice in advance it seems.

Going back to the our of date laws for a moment, it is perfectly legal to number a property in London 9⅖ if it is an infill as opposed to 9B. Places licensed to sell intoxicating liquor, cinematograph theatre, theatres and music halls all in operation prior to 1939 can in London change their building name without by or leave. After 1939 they cannot.

May be Labour would make an effort with the railway legislation. They would need to.

 

[Topological]

LNER probably give you an idea how it could be done - they issue a through ticket at the split price by applying a discount. Only for Advances though, which is the main place the issue comes up. The reason you get so many split Advances is that for a through ticket you need the same quota level available throughout.

For walk-ups you just need to run some batch jobs to identify the anomalies and keep tweaking them until they mostly go away. It's a hard thing to fix by hand but much easier when you can run a job to identify them. Must admit I was surprised to see anomalies in the new Project Oval fares - but there are some!

This would seem very sensible.

There is no reason why a split journey could not be printed as a single ticket.

If someone really wanted to do any of the splits then they can still buy the individual parts.

 

[Gigabit]

I do think there are opportunities for efficiencies. Surely some rolling stock could be shared.

Electrification could be done in larger projects/areas.

Mobile connectivity could be done over the entire network.

I can totally buy that a unified network would save money.

 

[Energy]

This may be idiotic, but I really think there could be merit in getting rid of the revenue abstraction and the ORCATS raid concept altogether. Let’s say we move into a GBR model (nationalised or not). What if we could simplify tickets to fixed, off peak/semi flex (as appropriate) and full flex, all ”GBR Only”.

Agreed, the railway is most efficient if people are on it for the shortest possible time so people should not be restricted to slower services.

Brits seem generally fairly willing to pay the extra for faster trains already, so I don't think the world would explode though rolling stock allocation might need to change a little.

 

[physics34]

I do think there are opportunities for efficiencies. Surely some rolling stock could be shared.

Electrification could be done in larger projects/areas.

Mobile connectivity could be done over the entire network.

I can totally buy that a unified network would save money.

And please.. one online ticket outlet.....GBR website.... none of the faux 'competition', trainline, uber etc

 

[800Travel]

And please.. one online ticket outlet.....GBR website.... none of the faux 'competition', trainline, uber etc

The only thing is this GBR site may not offer things like the avios and 10% uber do. If this results in costs lower than the price less the offers, fine. If not, that's a step back in my opinion. I know LNER is also currently offering 10% on certain tickets - very much doubt this is a coincidence, and seems likely it is to tempt customers away from using UBER.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And please.. one online ticket outlet.....GBR website.... none of the faux 'competition', trainline, uber etc

Not if it is as clumsy and outdated as the NRE web site.
Third party sites can show the railway a thing or two.

While DB, ÖBB and SBB sites are remarkably good, I can't say I recommend some of the other single national sites (eg SNCF Connect, Trenitalia or Renfe).