Rail north of Perth 'Unfit for Purpose'

[PFX]

Not sure if this should be here or in Infrastructure. Spans both in a way but as it's 'news' fresh up today... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17108039

It's been discussed here recently and this backs up a lot of what has been said.

 

[ObservationCar]

I have been away for abit, other than the Aberdeen to Inverness thread, what other threads have discussed this?

The BBC article is absolutly correct. I had this conversation with some ScotRail Reps in Inverness station last week, saying we need a train to get to Edinburgh by 0900, (you can even get to London by 9 in you fly from Inverness, a distance of 160 miles to Edinburgh SHOULD be possible in this day and age. Even if it leaves at stupid oclock people Will use it, but even then it should be possible for a train in this day and age to avg 60 mph throughout making a journey time of 2 hours 40 mins. I also said that we need a beter quality train as I will always try and travel East Coast to Edinburgh from Inverness, because of the facilities available on a 125, which they looked very concerned about, and gave the usual excuse, "the rolling stock comes with the franchise". -Well think outside the box and look at Chiltern etc..

A 0900-0930 arrival from Glasgow/Edinburgh would also be useful, which will allow us to plan meetings before 11am in Inverness. Its common sense for any operator to look after business and commuter traffic and let everything else fall into place after that. Business does exist north of the Central Belt but we need a fighting chance, commuter services have improved, but could still be improved more, Inverness-Dingwall, Inverness-Elgin should be Hourly, and half hourly at peak times, forget about the infrastructure dificulties, upgrade it to fit in with requirements, Rail would have a captive market like in the Welsh Valleys due to the state of the roads A9, A96, A87 etc..

Heres a self indulgent wish aswell, Extend central belt services to Dingwall after the Clunes dynamic loop and colour light signalling is installed to Dingwall Canal Junction. This is what happened once signalling to Inverurie was improved and bi directional working was introduced there, and its patronage has increased from 100,000 to 292,000.

 

[exile]

How many people would use such a service? Experience of crack-of-dawn services on other routes doesn't suggest it would be many.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Find it interesting they are suggesting increasing cross border services not reducing them like the consultation may have suggested.

 

[Aictos]

To have to agree on some of the points, the line does need investment north of Perth be it track upgrades, line speed upgrades or rolling stock upgrades.

 

[PFX]

You could consider the 04.51 ex Inverness, a crack of dawn service but given it takes a mind boggling 4h 38m to reach Edinburgh, it's still not much use for business travellers.

 

[kylemore]

Even from an amateur's view it is obvious that the potential for rail in this area is not being exploited.
It's always depressing when a lot of the rail people on here spend so much time and energy explaining what can't be done, traffics that rail can't now possibly carry and lack of demand for this or for that.
As far as demand is concerned you only have to stand at the side of the A9 and watch the Citylink and Megabuses go by with people who in a rationally organised European country would be on trains.
All our interests would be served - a busier more economical railway needing less taxpayer support, the enviroment would gain and more passengers would enjoy the higher quality that rail can offer.
The only interests being served by these people being on buses is the grubby pockets of Mr Souter and his shareholders.

 

[ObservationCar]

How many people would use such a service? Experience of crack-of-dawn services on other routes doesn't suggest it would be many.

In Scottish Terms it would be the equivilent of having a train depart Newcastle to Arrive in London before 0900(Regional City to Country's Capital), are these journeys busy? At 280 miles from NCL to KGX and they have a service which arrives around 0900 a distance of 160 miles shouldnt be as hard. even the current 0655 INV-EDB is reasonably busy, heaving by Kirkcaldy but to arrive after 1000 on this train is a joke. A 0655 departure could be in Edinburgh by around 0915 easily!

 

[ainsworth74]

At 280 miles from NCL to KGX and they have a service which arrives around 0900 a distance of 160 miles shouldnt be as hard.

But think about the difference in terrain that the two lines have to run through. The ECML between Newcastle and Darlington is a bit twisty but relatively flat whilst south of Darlington all the way to Kings Cross apart from a few places it's straight and flat (or there is room for high speed curves) which enables plenty of 125mph running. Compare this with the line from Inverness to Edinburgh/Glasgow which has to negotiate mountains it's not surprising to me that the speeds and therefore journey times are going to be much worse.

 

[exile]

Newcastle has a population of 800,000 (urban area) and London 7 million. You might expect a better level of service between cities of this size.... than between cities of 50,000 and 500,000......

 

[ObservationCar]

Newcastle has a population of 800,000 (urban area) and London 7 million. You might expect a better level of service between cities of this size.... than between cities of 50,000 and 500,000......

The 10 to 1 Formula that works out a lot of Comparrisons between England and Scotland applies here, we don't nearly have 10% of the seats between INV-EDB as NCL does to KGX.

3x9-car trains arrive before 0915

We are only asking for 1x3-car train to arrive for same time

edit to add: Inverness Population 60,000+45,000 within 15 mile catchment
Edinburgh: 400,000 but most national HQ's based here for public and private sector

 

[Ascot]

Didn't Loganair offer a flight from Inverness to Edinburgh early morning? That was only a 30ish seater and couldn't break even so surely not many people need to be in Edinburgh from Inverness by 9.

Note: Before the smart arse comments kick in, if people need to be in by 9 (aka the money people) then they will get in for 9 regardless of how.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Requeststop]

Although I come from a part of the UK that is as far away from Perth and northwards as possible without getting my toes wet in the briney I do follow what happens way up there in the North and far north with interest. (I hope some of you up there look down to us in Cornwall too).

2 years ago I had planned to do the West Highland line but BA messed up that proposal at Heathrow by delaying my flight to Glasgow and I missed the train at Queen Street. So, ever flexible, I took the train to Inverness, paying the extra for first class. I did my tour of the far north instead. Engineering works made a mess of going all the way to Kyle by rail and I only made it as far as Strathcarron. (well it's an excuse to go up there again sometime). After the tour also including the Wick/Thurso and Inverness-Aberdeen, I travelled down to Cornwall via Edinburgh - change for London King's X and Padd-Penzance on the sleeper.

Some thoughts - No idea what class of train Glasgow-Inverness-Edinburgh but 1st class - bloody awful - small and cramped. Not worth the extra money. For long distance travel, people actually like to be loco hauled and sit in coaches. Extension to Dingwall - excellent idea - the increase of numbers on the Inverurie - Edi - Glasgow run is proof that small increases in journey length works, especially as passengers do not like changing trains and crossing platforms with baggage etc. May I suggest that if possible extend to Invergordon.

Regular train services on short runs. Realising that the North/Far North does not have the branches that we have down in Cornwall, there is room for hourly runs between say - Invergordon-Inverness - Elgin-Inverness - Aviemore-Inverness. Maybe even a few extra runs between Wick and Thurso with a single car unit based up there? The experience of the Falmouth Branch line and the St.Ives Branch with the extra services now on offer has shown that if a service is provided then it will be used. (Please Please stop request stops up there - as we have found in my home village - turning a station to a request stop deters passengers)

Getting up and down to/from Inverness-Edinburgh/Glasgow is more trickier I'd say. Other than special late night sleeper between the centres dep 00:00 each way with a good breakfast either on board in the big cities and one of the excellent breakfasts at the Royal Highland on offer for the morning and a decent meal there for the return south - come on guys, it's only a 50 meter stagger to the train from the hotel after a good meal and some excellent malt - I don't know what to suggest!

Through services to/from south of the Central Belt avoiding the cities and down the West Coast is a must.

 

[tbtc]

But think about the difference in terrain that the two lines have to run through. The ECML between Newcastle and Darlington is a bit twisty but relatively flat whilst south of Darlington all the way to Kings Cross apart from a few places it's straight and flat (or there is room for high speed curves) which enables plenty of 125mph running. Compare this with the line from Inverness to Edinburgh/Glasgow which has to negotiate mountains it's not surprising to me that the speeds and therefore journey times are going to be much worse.

Good points.

Exen Alex Salmond would think that turning the mountainous single track (in places) line between Inverness and Perth into something equivalent to the 125mph double track (at least) ECML from Newcastle to Edinburgh.

The 06:47 gets into Edinburgh at 10.00. If people want to arrive in Edinburgh in enough time to attend a 09.00 meeting then you are probably talking a 05.00/ 05.15 departure. Everyone will say that they want such a service, sure, but are there enough to justify a three coach 170? Every day of the week (not just to suit Parliamentary business etc)?

 

[HSTEd]

Tilt could probably solve that, but I imagine that would end up ludicrously expensive for not much gain.

 

[Schnellzug]

Even if there's only a limited amount they could do in view of the terrain and so on, I really think they really, really need some Inter-City type trains once again. Is it just pure dogma that insists than DMUs of no more than 3 coaches is good enough? Does Alex Salmon not have any say in this, is everything dictated by Westminster?

 

[Ascot]

IIRC ScotRail ran the old Hull Trains 170s to Inverness with limited catering services? Never went on one if anyone can finish this off.

 

[ainsworth74]

Does Alex Salmon not have any say in this, is everything dictated by Westminster?

Transport is a devolved issue so if they want to spend the money on procuring a new inter-city train fleet for Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness/Aberdeen then it would be their decision and nothing to do with Westminster.

 

[PFX]

Exen Alex Salmond would think that turning the mountainous single track (in places) line between Inverness and Perth into something equivalent to the 125mph double track (at least) ECML from Newcastle to Edinburgh.

That makes no sense but what I guess you've tried to say is that even Alex Salmond would think twice about upgrading the line? Apologies if that's not the case.

...but are there enough to justify a three coach 170? Every day of the week?

Are there indeed? Therein is the question that should be answered before everyone says the demand doesn't exist. Without solid proof, it's not possible to say if there are or aren't enough customers for such a service.

Is it a case of 'build it and they will come?' A similar situation exists on the Dublin/Belfast Enterprise. While it is possible to get a train to Dublin that arrives at 09.00, the reverse is not true, the first train from Dublin arriving at 09.45. The TOCs say there is no demand for such a service but without first offering it, how can they know?

I think one aspect of the article that hasn't been mentioned is the introduction of airline-style fares. While there is always a demand to keep ticketing as simple as possible, we all seem to cope with easyJet, Ryanair and the like. Perhaps an alternative is a two tier structure, a limited range of walk up fares available on-board/at the station, and variable web fares. Granted, these do exist in a limited form already but why not extend it in the same way such as long distance fares are offered?

Just some more food for thought.

***EDIT***

Thinking further about the airline style fares, that's exactly how I used to make my journeys from Edinburgh to London. Using GNER, booking an advance 1st, I could get fantastic deals if I was prepared to be a bit flexible on times. As first class was at the time worth it, I was happy to pay extra.

Furthermore, my end to end journey was only marginally slower compared to flying once I counted the additional time to get to and from the airports, check in, luggage reclaim (this is before everything was extra!!!) etc.

If there was an early service available with some good fares, it could change some peoples travel habits.

 

[Schnellzug]

Transport is a devolved issue so if they want to spend the money on procuring a new inter-city train fleet for Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness/Aberdeen then it would be their decision and nothing to do with Westminster.

So it should be Alex they should be complaining to, then?

 

[ainsworth74]

The TOCs say there is no demand for such a service but without first offering it, how can they know?

By surveying their passengers or by conducting surveys of local people in the locations that a prospective service may operate between. There are options other than just running a service and seeing what happens.

So it should be Alex they should be complaining to, then?

Yep, Scotrail and its operations are nothing to do with the DfT and Westminster.

 

[mralexn]

I would like to see something like a 0530 service from Inverness To Edinburgh Via Aviemore, getting into Edinburgh around 08:45, and also offering a connecting service from Perth to connect with Glasgow at the same kind of time.

The only issue that i see with the HML north of Perth, is there is not much capacity. Due it most of it being single line,
Speed however is not much of an issue,

I mean, between Kinussie and Avimore you reach 100mph,
a little bit faster than the Cornish Mainline :P

 

[route:oxford]

Even if there's only a limited amount they could do in view of the terrain and so on, I really think they really, really need some Inter-City type trains once again. Is it just pure dogma that insists than DMUs of no more than 3 coaches is good enough? Does Alex Salmon not have any say in this, is everything dictated by Westminster?

Personally, I'd go for 7-car EMUs operating as far as Perth (in due course) then taken forward by a Diesel Loco that is capable of supplying traction current to the EMU.

Ideally, of course, the route should be wired all the way to Inverness.

 

[ObservationCar]

I would like to see something like a 0530 service from Inverness To Edinburgh Via Aviemore

Highland Mainline opening times are funny between Inverness and Perth due to Signal Box rosters etc...

A major selling point of the Citylink Gold or Megabus, is that some run non stop, or only call at Aviemore. So faster running could be achieved by less stops. The Aberdeen Trains get a fast path after Leuchars so again their is scope to increase speeds. The whole HML could be upgraded to allow faster running and the only point which would never be upgraded would be Killiecrankie, which I believe trains will still slow to 30mph to pass through the tunnel 100 years from now.

I think it would be a positive move to increase the services, infrastructure and quality of service. Its sad to see so many negative views on what would be progress and its hard to imagine why you are train enthusiasts if you don't think progress is a good thing in the rail industry. I'm all for weighing up the economics of any rail project and this would pay itself back within 3 years.

 

[tbtc]

Its sad to see so many negative views on what would be progress and its hard to imagine why you are train enthusiasts if you don't think progress is a good thing in the rail industry

Progress is a good thing. Tipping large sums of money down the drain isn't.

Now, maybe there's enough demand to sustain an 05.00 departure from Inverness service five days a week, but at the moment we are basing this on "wouldn't it be nice to have".

Given all the "fantasy service" requests on here, I'm just trying to suggest that there may not be enough demand to sustain a three coach train every week day (yet alone a seven coach one)

I'm all for weighing up the economics of any rail project and this would pay itself back within 3 years.

Okay.

From a quick google, the first coach of the day arrives in Edinburgh at 10.40

http://www.citylink.co.uk/timetables/WINTER11/EDIN2INVER.pdf (I've checked the Megabus site too)

Now, Citylink don't have to worry about signal box shifts/ there's not the same number of people required to work at Inverness Coach station as to open up Inverness Train Station, Citylink don't need to worry about engineering work, the running costs for a fifty seat coach must be lower than those of a two hundred seat 170 etc etc, yet they still don't run a service that arrives in Edinburgh (from Inverness) in time for an early meeting.

That makes no sense but what I guess you've tried to say is that even Alex Salmond would think twice about upgrading the line? Apologies if that's not the case.

Yeah, apologies if I got my words muddled - I was trying to say despite Eck's delusions of grandeur in some areas, he'd think twice before funding something like this

Are there indeed? Therein is the question that should be answered before everyone says the demand doesn't exist. Without solid proof, it's not possible to say if there are or aren't enough customers for such a service

If you ask people in the Highlands "would you like a train departing Inverness early enough to get to Edinburgh for a nine o'clock meeting then of course people will generally say "yes". But enough to actually pay for such a service?

I've quoted above that CityLink don't provide such a route, which suggests that there's only limited demand.

Is it a case of 'build it and they will come?' A similar situation exists on the Dublin/Belfast Enterprise. While it is possible to get a train to Dublin that arrives at 09.00, the reverse is not true, the first train from Dublin arriving at 09.45. The TOCs say there is no demand for such a service but without first offering it, how can they know?

Field Of Dreams is responsible for a lot of other optimistic ideas.

Belfast to Dublin is a good bit shorter (roughly two thirds of the distance), and Belfast is a good bit bigger.

I appreciate that there will be *some* demand, of course, I just doubt it'd be enough. This thread certainly isn't as far fetched as the "lets increase the Denton - Stockport service from one train a week to five trains an hour" thread we had recently.

 

[kylemore]

If you ask people in the Highlands "would you like a train departing Inverness early enough to get to Edinburgh for a nine o'clock meeting then of course people will generally say "yes". But enough to actually pay for such a service?

I've quoted above that CityLink don't provide such a route, which suggests that there's only limited demand.



QUOTE]

Generally speaking people who are being paid to travel from Inverness to Edinburgh to attend meetings etc do not travel by bus so absence of a bus offering a pre 9am arrival in Edinburgh is more or less irrelevent.
However if you can prove there are few or no cars driving between Inverness and Edinburgh at these times then yes you have won the argument! The competition/alternative for premium fare peak trains carrying people going to 'meetings' is the car not the bus.
To get people out of the buses you need to run 5 or 7 car trains off-peak with a range of discounted fare products, I would suggest that the £50m that the Scottish Govt is going to spend on new or upgraded sleepers would be better spent buying as many off the peg 5 or 7 car DEMUs as possible to increase capacity, no expensive infrastructure needed just double or more the capacity of existing workings.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm all for weighing up the economics of any rail project and this would pay itself back within 3 years.

Do you have any evidence for that?

 

[route:oxford]

Given all the "fantasy service" requests on here, I'm just trying to suggest that there may not be enough demand to sustain a three coach train every week day (yet alone a seven coach one).

Ok, so. Say the following service ran to Glasgow...

Inverness [AVM] 06:00
Aviemore [AVM] 06:34
Kingussie [KIN] 06:46
Pitlochry [PIT] 07:28
Perth [PTH] 07:59
Stirling [STG] 08:27
Glasgow [GLQ] 08:58

Is it likely that this service will be busy or pretty empty when it reaches Weegieland?

 

[Ascot]

Like I said earlier, if they cannot fill a 30 seater flight then what chance has a 3 coach train got?

Note: As proven people who need to be in at 9 will be in for 9 regardless of rail or air.

 

[route:oxford]

Like I said earlier, if they cannot fill a 30 seater flight then what chance has a 3 coach train got?

Note: As proven people who need to be in at 9 will be in for 9 regardless of rail or air.

Depends on how much the flight costs...

When I checked yesterday, a flexible economy BMI ticket from Edinburgh to London now costs £550.

Three weeks salary at minimum wage.