Rail replacement buses and lack of seat belts

[infobleep]

Something just occurred to me today in relation to rail replacement buses.

On buses one doesn't have to wear a seat belt and one isn't even provided. You can stand.

On coaches one has to wear a seat belt I believe and it is provided.

So now on a 40 minute non stop rail replacement bus from Three Bridges to Brighton. Is my travel less safe than if they provided a coach?

I assume it must be. It's not as if the bus is constantly stopping as it's running non stop.

The passengers to Lewes were put on a coach, so I assume by law had to wear a seat belt. Would their travel be less safe than mine, if they didn't wear their seat belts, like I can't?

I doesn't bother me as such that I don't need to wear a seat belt. It was just something that occurred to me.

Of they couldn't use buses on trips such as this, they would struggle to run replacement bus services.

 

[willas00]

As someone who works as a Rail Replacement Coordinator for Arriva and is also training as I coach driver from what I understand if it’s a service bus without seat belts it’s no major issue.

If seat bealts are their they must be warn it’s the law and you can be personally fined as well as the driver (I was told once by a driver it’s £2,500 though not 100% sure I’ve only started training as a driver very recently!)

A service bus with passengers standing is fine though a motorway journey with standees is a huge no.

No standees on a coach what so ever.

I understand your concerns and while the driver is a professional it’s still other drivers you need to be careful of.

In my view on Rail Replacement busses should be coaches with seatbelt. Local journeys or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have certainly been on a service bus on a motorway with standees permitted. I think it was one of the short lived Trafford Centre direct services on the M60.

It's not like the bus can go any faster than on a dual carriageway, and safety generally is far better on motorways than dual carriageways.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

I have certainly been on a service bus on a motorway with standees permitted. I think it was one of the short lived Trafford Centre direct services on the M60.

It's not like the bus can go any faster than on a dual carriageway, and safety generally is far better on motorways than dual carriageways.

Agree. It’s a few years since I checked but my understanding is that it’s the type of vehicle which determines whether standing passengers are allowed, not the roads used. Was certainly on a bus along M8 motorway to Glasgow Airport few weeks ago with standing passengers, and I’d expect that’s quite common on that service.

Of course trains don’t have seatbelts and regularly carry large volumes of passengers at much higher speeds than buses. I’m not sure their interior design is that much safer than a bus if rapid deceleration occurred.

 

[Robertj21a]

As someone who works as a Rail Replacement Coordinator for Arriva and is also training as I coach driver from what I understand if it’s a service bus without seat belts it’s no major issue.

If seat bealts are their they must be warn it’s the law and you can be personally fined as well as the driver (I was told once by a driver it’s £2,500 though not 100% sure I’ve only started training as a driver very recently!)

A service bus with passengers standing is fine though a motorway journey with standees is a huge no.

No standees on a coach what so ever.

I understand your concerns and while the driver is a professional it’s still other drivers you need to be careful of.

In my view on Rail Replacement busses should be coaches with seatbelt. Local journeys or not.

Buses can, and do, run on motorways with standing passengers.

 

[London Trains]

Something just occurred to me today in relation to rail replacement buses.

On buses one doesn't have to wear a seat belt and one isn't even provided. You can stand.

On coaches one has to wear a seat belt I believe and it is provided.

So now on a 40 minute non stop rail replacement bus from Three Bridges to Brighton. Is my travel less safe than if they provided a coach?

I assume it must be. It's not as if the bus is constantly stopping as it's running non stop.

The passengers to Lewes were put on a coach, so I assume by law had to wear a seat belt. Would their travel be less safe than mine, if they didn't wear their seat belts, like I can't?

I doesn't bother me as such that I don't need to wear a seat belt. It was just something that occurred to me.

Of they couldn't use buses on trips such as this, they would struggle to run replacement bus services.

This is not uncommon, on the day of Prudential RideLondon, the X26 London Bus is diverted via the M25. I sat parallel to the X26 in a car on the M25 due to major traffic (Its the only route between S and W London tha tday as all crossings are blocked) and there were many standing passengers. Then it sped up, and I saw with my own eyes passengers fall down. Then the one in the other direction passes at 70mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree. It’s a few years since I checked but my understanding is that it’s the type of vehicle which determines whether standing passengers are allowed, not the roads used. Was certainly on a bus along M8 motorway to Glasgow Airport few weeks ago with standing passengers, and I’d expect that’s quite common on that service.

Of course trains don’t have seatbelts and regularly carry large volumes of passengers at much higher speeds than buses. I’m not sure their interior design is that much safer than a bus if rapid deceleration occurred.

A train (with reinforced double glazed windows) is better at structural integrity and retaining passengers within it than a bus (mostly single glazed, and usually a weak body on a heavy chassis, a design the railway packed in using years ago). And is less likely to hit anything, and if it does rapid deceleration is less likely, more likely destruction of the thing it hit.

 

[Bovverboy]

The situation used to be that if a psv was used as a stage or express carriage (effectively, on a journey operated under a road service licence) then it could carry as many standing passengers as authorised (being determined by a certain amount of floor space for each standing passenger); if the number of permitted standing passengers was not stipulated (which it would not be, on such as a coach) then the standing passenger limit was eight. In other situations (such as private hire, which I'm sure would include RRP work) the limit was nil.
Many definitions have been altered since deregulation, so I don't know for sure what the situation would be nowadays.

 

[RJ]

In my view on Rail Replacement busses should be coaches with seatbelt. Local journeys or not.

I drive rail replacement routes across the London Zone 1-8 area and coaches with single leaf doors and under floor luggage storage would cause absolute mayhem. Thankfully this doesn't happen in reality.

 

[RJ]

A service bus with passengers standing is fine though a motorway journey with standees is a huge no.

A London service route, the A10 runs along the M4 and there is no prohibition on standees.

 

[philthetube]

This is not uncommon, on the day of Prudential RideLondon, the X26 London Bus is diverted via the M25. I sat parallel to the X26 in a car on the M25 due to major traffic (Its the only route between S and W London tha tday as all crossings are blocked) and there were many standing passengers. Then it sped up, and I saw with my own eyes passengers fall down. Then the one in the other direction passes at 70mph.

I would love to know what kind of bus has the acceleration to make passengers fall over, and why being on a motorway makes any difference in this case. Also which london buses are able to do 70mph and how do you judge that from the opposite direction.

 

[iantherev]

I would love to know what kind of bus has the acceleration to make passengers fall over, and why being on a motorway makes any difference in this case. Also which london buses are able to do 70mph and how do you judge that from the opposite direction.

Not sure about most modern buses but a Cardiff Leyland Lynx once sent me stumbling down the gangway as it took off like the proverbial.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Buses (and coaches) are limited to 60mph. The limit on passengers is determined by the bus/coach. If a coach stood-in for a bus on service work for example, then no standees permitted. If a bus is doing coach work then the bus standee limit applies. As few buses have a tachograph fitted, then manual driving records must be kept if not fitted and doing EU hours work (as opposed to domestic hours work). All coach driving is EU hours governed, most service bus work is domestic hours governed. Rail Replacement will be EU hours work. EU hours is more restrictive than domestic. For example EU driving can only do 4.5 hours without a break, domestic can do 5.5, there are also greater daily & weekly rest periods for EU driving hours. Once a driver does any EU work he is governed by EU hours for that day & next 13 days. This is why coach companies are generally used for Rail Replacement , as bus companies don’t want bus drivers on restricted hours for two weeks!

 

[Chrisgr31]

I have been on a rail replacement coach that had standing passengers. The coach driver said he wasnt allowed to carry standing passengers but was going to because otherwise it would have meant leaving passengers behind, with them being delayed by another hour.

 

[RJ]

I would love to know what kind of bus has the acceleration to make passengers fall over, and why being on a motorway makes any difference in this case. Also which london buses are able to do 70mph and how do you judge that from the opposite direction.

It is very easy for the fuel injector restrictions to be bypassed, accidentally or otherwise which can result in people being knocked off balance when the bus starts moving.

Also see this video at around 5:40 - the bus pushes forward after the first gear unlocks, resulting in a passenger losing their balance.

 

[Robertj21a]

This is not uncommon, on the day of Prudential RideLondon, the X26 London Bus is diverted via the M25. I sat parallel to the X26 in a car on the M25 due to major traffic (Its the only route between S and W London tha tday as all crossings are blocked) and there were many standing passengers. Then it sped up, and I saw with my own eyes passengers fall down. Then the one in the other direction passes at 70mph.

Sorry, that all sounds totally unbelievable.

 

[al78]

Of course trains don’t have seatbelts and regularly carry large volumes of passengers at much higher speeds than buses. I’m not sure their interior design is that much safer than a bus if rapid deceleration occurred.

Trains are a lot different to road vehicles. Railways are far more regulated and controlled, they are not public rights of way, and train drivers don't regularly have to deal with spatially incompetant idiots pulling out or walking out in front of them forcing evasive action. Trains are limited to linear movement along a line, road vehicles can make sharp turns and are more two-dimensional in their freedom of movement. How fast can a train decelerate compared to a bus?

 

[al78]

This is not uncommon, on the day of Prudential RideLondon, the X26 London Bus is diverted via the M25. I sat parallel to the X26 in a car on the M25 due to major traffic (Its the only route between S and W London tha tday as all crossings are blocked) and there were many standing passengers. Then it sped up, and I saw with my own eyes passengers fall down. Then the one in the other direction passes at 70mph.

That is impressive, I never knew a bus could have the acceleration of a racing car. Maybe there were a lot of people with balance problems on board that day.

 

[RT4038]

Buses (and coaches) are limited to 60mph. The limit on passengers is determined by the bus/coach. If a coach stood-in for a bus on service work for example, then no standees permitted. If a bus is doing coach work then the bus standee limit applies. As few buses have a tachograph fitted, then manual driving records must be kept if not fitted and doing EU hours work (as opposed to domestic hours work). All coach driving is EU hours governed, most service bus work is domestic hours governed. Rail Replacement will be EU hours work. EU hours is more restrictive than domestic. For example EU driving can only do 4.5 hours without a break, domestic can do 5.5, there are also greater daily & weekly rest periods for EU driving hours. Once a driver does any EU work he is governed by EU hours for that day & next 13 days. This is why coach companies are generally used for Rail Replacement , as bus companies don’t want bus drivers on restricted hours for two weeks!

Not true. Rail Replacement can be on Domestic Hours - depends on the distance (50km) without stopping. Many TOCs specify coaches to be used for comfort, but on suburban/local lines (and in emergency elsewhere) buses are often used

 

[LiftFan]

Buses (and coaches) are limited to 60mph.

I'm not sure if the limiter was broken but I have certainly clocked a decker going 70 down a dual carriageway diversion once...

 

[RT4038]

A

A service bus with passengers standing is fine though a motorway journey with standees is a huge no.

No standees on a coach what so ever.

.

Not true. There is no restriction on standee passengers on a motorway, provided the vehicle is licensed for standing passengers. If there is a coach which is licensed for standing passengers that would be legal too. However, most coaches are not licensed for this (usually due to no grab poles and floor to ceiling height insufficient etc)

 

[bnm]

Buses (and coaches) are limited to 60mph.

Only if they're over 12 metres in length. Otherwise it's 70mph on motorways. Most deckers are around 10 metres. Many many coaches are 12m and under too.

 

[Silver Cobra]

As someone who works as a Rail Replacement Coordinator for Arriva and is also training as I coach driver from what I understand if it’s a service bus without seat belts it’s no major issue.

If seat bealts are their they must be warn it’s the law and you can be personally fined as well as the driver (I was told once by a driver it’s £2,500 though not 100% sure I’ve only started training as a driver very recently!)

While this doesn't relate to RRBs, it's funny seeing how many people don't wear seat belts when travelling on the Stagecoach X5 coach service, so each person who doesn't is arguably liable for a fine, as is the driver. Interestingly, I rarely hear drivers reminding passengers that they must wear their seat belts. While it's quite unlikely that the coach will be stopped and checks done by the police, I personally don't take the risk and always wear the seat belt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, that all sounds totally unbelievable.

Agreed. If absolutely nothing else, any UK bus other than a small minibus will have a limiter set to 100km/h or 62mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not true. Rail Replacement can be on Domestic Hours - depends on the distance (50km) without stopping. Many TOCs specify coaches to be used for comfort, but on suburban/local lines (and in emergency elsewhere) buses are often used

Buses (very posh brand new ones) are in use on Preston-Blackpool at present.

 

[Qwerty133]

Does anyone ever wear the seatbelts on coaches anyway?

 

[BestWestern]

The driver of a coach is not lible for adult passengers who do not wear a seatbelt when provided.

 

[Temple Meads]

Does anyone ever wear the seatbelts on coaches anyway?

At a rough guess about a third, which increases to around half if the driver makes an announcement about seatbelt use. Often see people sleeping across seats on overnight services, and occasionally on the floor!

 

[sw1ller]

What’s the point of a toilet on a coach if seatbelts are mandatory?

 

[philthetube]

The driver of a coach is not lible for adult passengers who do not wear a seatbelt when provided.

I am fairly sure he is not liable for children either as it was decided that it would be impossible for the driver to enforce, however I understand that he is legally required to make an announcement about seat belts.

unless the law has changed a coach from approx 1970 or earlier is allowed to carry 8 standees.