• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Rail replacement washout on SWR

Status
Not open for further replies.

bakerstreet

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2009
Messages
944
Location
-
SWR have a massive shortage of bus drivers. They’re being very helpful but a difficult day shall we say…

1662916043409.jpeg

(Image shows 8 of the 9 scheduled buses between 17:31 and 19:31 as cancelled)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

TEW

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2008
Messages
5,852
It's been an ongoing issue for SWR for a while now. I certainly wouldn't make any plans relying on replacement buses.
 

TEW

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2008
Messages
5,852
Is this mostly about drivers, or is it accessible coaches as was predicted to be a problem?
The kind of service shown as cancelled in the screenshot above would often just be provided by buses. SWR never seem to have an issue sourcing large numbers of accessible double decker buses for rail replacements although I don't know if double deckers are options for this route. The issues do seem to be more with routes that need single decker buses or coaches.
 

danielcanning

On Moderation
Joined
20 Mar 2022
Messages
189
Location
Highgate
if there is now such a shortage of drivers to run replacement bus services perhaps it’s best to postpone all non-emergency engineering works until this problem is sorted…
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,834
if there is now such a shortage of drivers to run replacement bus services perhaps it’s best to postpone all non-emergency engineering works until this problem is sorted…
Or change the promise and simply indicate that journeys aren't possible, which is probably more practical.
 

Kilopylae

Member
Joined
9 Apr 2019
Messages
740
Location
Oxford and Devon
Is this mostly about drivers, or is it accessible coaches as was predicted to be a problem?
During disruption a few days ago it was explained to passengers that there was a shortage of drivers for replacement coaches, though I don't know if that's the same situation as planned replacement buses.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,457
Location
UK
Or change the promise and simply indicate that journeys aren't possible, which is probably more practical.
What's the point of running a service if it isn't possible to travel?

May as well just tell the public to buy a car...
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,834
I think the previous speaker would be entitled to repeat his remark - may as well just tell the public to buy a car, then. It isn't good enough.
Or come back the next time the trains are running / adjust plans. (To some extent that already happens when there are railway replacement services, else 50 seat coaches wouldn't be able to replace 200 seat trains).

Which makes it valueless.
No it doesn't. It makes it a great option when it is running and you accept that one Sunday every 13 weeks it doesn't.

(I would envisage that advance notice of engineering works would be given much earlier that it is at present.)

Much better than turning up and finding on the day that replacement transport isn't available.

On the other hand, I think it has to be questioned whether closing 35 miles of railway from Basingstoke to Weybridge and Guildford to Woking is a proportionate solution to the need for engineering access, when there is limited availability of replacement transport.
 
Last edited:

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,308
No, just means the railway isn't a seven day a week service any more on a cyclic basis.
It isn't cyclical, though. Round here - in SWR-land - they've been re-signalling which has involved closures virtually every weekend.
 

Flange Squeal

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2012
Messages
1,265
Is this mostly about drivers, or is it accessible coaches as was predicted to be a problem?
I know the proprietor of one respectable operator whose business model is schools and rail. They were a very regular sight every weekend over a large area of their local TOC’s network, but since Covid they have been able to cover their school work but drivers seem increasingly reluctant to do rail work at weekends now. They also welcome casuals, pay a decent competitive wage for doing weekend rail, and provide their own maps and instructions so drivers aren’t just thrown out there blind, but even then they now struggle to find people seemingly wanting to do rail work. As a result they have a yard full of varied vehicles ready to go every weekend, but just can’t find people to drive them so can’t take on the amount of work they used to. Now this is just one operator in one part of the UK, but it would be interesting to know if this is repeated elsewhere.

The kind of service shown as cancelled in the screenshot above would often just be provided by buses. SWR never seem to have an issue sourcing large numbers of accessible double decker buses for rail replacements although I don't know if double deckers are options for this route. The issues do seem to be more with routes that need single decker buses or coaches.
The Weybridge - Woking - Basingstoke/Guildford stopping services need to be single deck bus/coach due to low bridges at New Haw and (the former) Brookwood. They were also running fast Woking - Guildford - Basing services with (mainly) coaches, so I guess combined this was creating a big requirement for single deck vehicles. I didn’t see much in the way of local bus companies like Stagecoach today (saw a Falcon Buses vehicle), so I guess maybe they’re focusing on trying to cover their own local stuff at the moment? Seemed to be mainly coach operators from west London or the South Coast from what I saw today.
 
Last edited:

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,102
Location
UK
No it doesn't. It makes it a great option when it is running and you accept that one Sunday every 13 weeks it doesn't.
One Sunday every 13 weeks? Wishful thinking! There are many lines where blocks are far more frequent than that. Unless you're suggesting it's acceptable if the railway simply becomes a 5 day a week operation...

I would envisage that advance notice of engineering works would be given much earlier that it is at present.
Again, wishful thinking. Whilst blocks are generally nailed down many months, if not a year, in advance, the frequency of changes to timetables during Covid means that the industry has essentially accepted moving to an 8 week notice period for "confirmed" engineering work timetables.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,435
Location
London

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
7,109
Or come back the next time the trains are running / adjust plans. (To some extent that already happens when there are railway replacement services, else 50 seat coaches wouldn't be able to replace 200 seat trains).


No it doesn't. It makes it a great option when it is running and you accept that one Sunday every 13 weeks it doesn't.
If the current situation is temporary, that's one thing. People can probably accept occasional days of severe disruption.

But we should not be going down the road of accepting shutting down main lines completely on a Sunday every so many weeks (and in SWR-land, it's certainly more frequently than 1 every 13 weeks). It's a problem which needs to be sorted. The big question is, why is it so hard to source bus replacements now, compared to the past? Is it a specific thing for this weekend, in relation to the Queen's passing, or something else?

The railway has managed to run a 7-day service on many lines (certainly this kind of route, anyhow) for as long as I can remember (early 80s) and probably longer. Granted services might have been infrequent, and might have been buses rather than trains, but at least they ran.
 
Last edited:

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,435
Location
London
It's a problem which needs to be sorted. The big question is, why is it so hard to source bus replacements now, compared to the past? Is it a specific thing for this weekend, in relation to the Queen's passing, or something else?

The ongoing chronic labour shortage, specifically a shortage of bus drivers, has been identified as the major cause. The money isn’t there to really change things which would require a dedicated railway bus fleet, or paying very high rates of hire to private operators. Neither is remotely likely to happen, so I’d expect the current situation to continue indefinitely.

The railway has managed to run a 7-day service on many lines (certainly this kind of route, anyhow) for as long as I can remember and probably longer. Granted services might have been infrequent, and might have been buses rather than trains, but at least they ran.

If RRBs operate near me I tend to make other arrangements because they’re incredibly slow and tedious. That has been the case for years. That doesn’t make the railway “valueless” on the 99% of times when it runs as normal, as was implied upthread, though!
 
Last edited:

SWT_USER

Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
869
Location
Ashford Middx
Or come back the next time the trains are running / adjust plans. (To some extent that already happens when there are railway replacement services, else 50 seat coaches wouldn't be able to replace 200 seat trains).


No it doesn't. It makes it a great option when it is running and you accept that one Sunday every 13 weeks it doesn't.


(I would envisage that advance notice of engineering works would be given much earlier that it is at present.)

Much better than turning up and finding on the day that replacement transport isn't available.

On the other hand, I think it has to be questioned whether closing 35 miles of railway from Basingstoke to Weybridge and Guildford to Woking is a proportionate solution to the need for engineering access, when there is limited availability of replacement transport.

Once every 13 weeks? If only! Feels like every weekend at the moment on the Windsor side.
 

PhilStockley

Member
Joined
21 Jun 2016
Messages
75
The big question is, why is it so hard to source bus replacements now, compared to the past?
That's fairly straightforward to answer. The entire bus industry, in common with many other industries, is experiencing a serious labour shortage at present. In that situation, operators of local bus services are (sensibly) prioritising their regular scheduled commitments, which is why you don't see the likes of Stagecoach or First covering rail to anything like the extent they did historically. That in turn puts more pressure on the independent sector, but that sector draws heavily on casuals for this kind of work, and my observation is that the pandemic and the requirements for shielding led large numbers of especially older semi-retired casuals to decide it was a good time to hang up their licence, never to return.

I was driving yesterday on Guildford - Basingstoke fast services, working as a casual for a Southampton independent, and there were coaches from as far afield as Bedfordshire in the other direction working on the same job, such is the extent to which SWR are having to spread their net to get work covered.

While I understand people's natural resistance to rail replacement, the situation yesterday was nowhere near as bad as portrayed. SWR successfully covered a large number of uncovered diagrams towards the end of last week - I was only booked on Friday, and all my runs were still shown as "cancelled" - so in fact many that were shown as cancelled were running. It's an obvious frustration that the railway systems don't seem to be able to respond quickly enough to reflect that. But there were still gaps, but even here the co-ordinators on the ground were using their resources skilfully to mitigate issues as far as possible. I almost had an unexpected adventure to Gatwick at one point!

So although the driver shortage is causing some very serious problems, and I don't envy the planners who have to try to cover all this stuff, the reality is that the service often runs better than might appear looking in from outside, and while I'm certainly not qualified to comment on the merits or demerits of particular closures, I like my railways to be well maintained and safe so some of the more drastic options advised here are hopefully unnecessary!
 

bakerstreet

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2009
Messages
944
Location
-
That's fairly straightforward to answer. The entire bus industry, in common with many other industries, is experiencing a serious labour shortage at present. In that situation, operators of local bus services are (sensibly) prioritising their regular scheduled commitments, which is why you don't see the likes of Stagecoach or First covering rail to anything like the extent they did historically. That in turn puts more pressure on the independent sector, but that sector draws heavily on casuals for this kind of work, and my observation is that the pandemic and the requirements for shielding led large numbers of especially older semi-retired casuals to decide it was a good time to hang up their licence, never to return.

I was driving yesterday on Guildford - Basingstoke fast services, working as a casual for a Southampton independent, and there were coaches from as far afield as Bedfordshire in the other direction working on the same job, such is the extent to which SWR are having to spread their net to get work covered.

While I understand people's natural resistance to rail replacement, the situation yesterday was nowhere near as bad as portrayed. SWR successfully covered a large number of uncovered diagrams towards the end of last week - I was only booked on Friday, and all my runs were still shown as "cancelled" - so in fact many that were shown as cancelled were running. It's an obvious frustration that the railway systems don't seem to be able to respond quickly enough to reflect that. But there were still gaps, but even here the co-ordinators on the ground were using their resources skilfully to mitigate issues as far as possible. I almost had an unexpected adventure to Gatwick at one point!

So although the driver shortage is causing some very serious problems, and I don't envy the planners who have to try to cover all this stuff, the reality is that the service often runs better than might appear looking in from outside, and while I'm certainly not qualified to comment on the merits or demerits of particular closures, I like my railways to be well maintained and safe so some of the more drastic options advised here are hopefully unnecessary!
Thank you for this very thoughtful and well worded post and the points you make. Really interesting to hear this first hand experience of the issues.

One thing I should add though is that my immediate thought was as you suggest that the many journeys showing as cancelled was an error where systems hadn’t been updated.

But when I contacted SWR, and on the ground later, it was clear that gaps in the half hourly stopping service of well in excess of two hours (I simply don’t know how much longer the gap was as other personal arrangements were made in the end) was the passenger experience.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
7,109
That's fairly straightforward to answer. The entire bus industry, in common with many other industries, is experiencing a serious labour shortage at present. In that situation, operators of local bus services are (sensibly) prioritising their regular scheduled commitments, which is why you don't see the likes of Stagecoach or First covering rail to anything like the extent they did historically. That in turn puts more pressure on the independent sector, but that sector draws heavily on casuals for this kind of work, and my observation is that the pandemic and the requirements for shielding led large numbers of especially older semi-retired casuals to decide it was a good time to hang up their licence, never to return.

I was driving yesterday on Guildford - Basingstoke fast services, working as a casual for a Southampton independent, and there were coaches from as far afield as Bedfordshire in the other direction working on the same job, such is the extent to which SWR are having to spread their net to get work covered.

While I understand people's natural resistance to rail replacement, the situation yesterday was nowhere near as bad as portrayed. SWR successfully covered a large number of uncovered diagrams towards the end of last week - I was only booked on Friday, and all my runs were still shown as "cancelled" - so in fact many that were shown as cancelled were running. It's an obvious frustration that the railway systems don't seem to be able to respond quickly enough to reflect that. But there were still gaps, but even here the co-ordinators on the ground were using their resources skilfully to mitigate issues as far as possible. I almost had an unexpected adventure to Gatwick at one point!

So although the driver shortage is causing some very serious problems, and I don't envy the planners who have to try to cover all this stuff, the reality is that the service often runs better than might appear looking in from outside, and while I'm certainly not qualified to comment on the merits or demerits of particular closures, I like my railways to be well maintained and safe so some of the more drastic options advised here are hopefully unnecessary!

Thanks for that, a very informative post.
 

PhilStockley

Member
Joined
21 Jun 2016
Messages
75
But when I contacted SWR, and on the ground later, it was clear that gaps in the half hourly stopping service of well in excess of two hours (I simply don’t know how much longer the gap was as other personal arrangements were made in the end) was the passenger experience.

Thanks for the kind comment.

Both things are in fact true. A number of 'cancelled' diagrams did run - I was one of them, and I spoke to several other drivers in the same situation. Also, in some cases, buses were diverted to cover gaps - another vehicle from the company I was representing was taken off fast journeys to cover an 'all stations' service that wasn't running, for example. However, you are quite right that there were still some significant gaps. In these cases, there's a real challenge particularly for those waiting at smaller stations, who don't have co-ordinators on hand and to some extent are left to the mercy of circumstances (especially where the 'help point' may not have access to the dynamic decision-making that is happening on the ground). Really good points which I don't necessarily have the answer for, and it's a shame that customers are lost as a result.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
That's fairly straightforward to answer. The entire bus industry, in common with many other industries, is experiencing a serious labour shortage at present. In that situation, operators of local bus services are (sensibly) prioritising their regular scheduled commitments, which is why you don't see the likes of Stagecoach or First covering rail to anything like the extent they did historically. That in turn puts more pressure on the independent sector, but that sector draws heavily on casuals for this kind of work, and my observation is that the pandemic and the requirements for shielding led large numbers of especially older semi-retired casuals to decide it was a good time to hang up their licence, never to return.

I was driving yesterday on Guildford - Basingstoke fast services, working as a casual for a Southampton independent, and there were coaches from as far afield as Bedfordshire in the other direction working on the same job, such is the extent to which SWR are having to spread their net to get work covered.

While I understand people's natural resistance to rail replacement, the situation yesterday was nowhere near as bad as portrayed. SWR successfully covered a large number of uncovered diagrams towards the end of last week - I was only booked on Friday, and all my runs were still shown as "cancelled" - so in fact many that were shown as cancelled were running. It's an obvious frustration that the railway systems don't seem to be able to respond quickly enough to reflect that. But there were still gaps, but even here the co-ordinators on the ground were using their resources skilfully to mitigate issues as far as possible. I almost had an unexpected adventure to Gatwick at one point!

So although the driver shortage is causing some very serious problems, and I don't envy the planners who have to try to cover all this stuff, the reality is that the service often runs better than might appear looking in from outside, and while I'm certainly not qualified to comment on the merits or demerits of particular closures, I like my railways to be well maintained and safe so some of the more drastic options advised here are hopefully unnecessary!

You make some great points, which I fear will be ignored by some of the railway enthusiasts who seem to live in a bubble and have no concept of the wider public transport industry (possibly because heavy rail was massively protected during a dozen years of austerity, whilst councils were forced to make huge cuts to support for bus routes as budgets were tightened)

We’ve already seen some bus operators get some very negative publicity due to them sending drivers and modern buses to Birmingham for the Commonwealth Games, contracts that would have been arranged ages ago before the recent exodus of bus drivers/ recruitment problems, as the realities of Brexit hit home) - I can see why a bus company struggling to staff their own services is reluctant to prioritise non-core work like helping out the railway

But then, some Railway people have no perspective of other public transport, they’ll moan that it took a couple of hours to rustle up a dozen buses when an unexpected event like a bridge strike/ signal failure means that trains are unable to run (as of bus companies should keep large numbers of vehicles/ drivers as hot standbys just in case the more important railway needs them at ultra short notice!)

If this means that certain rail journeys aren’t possible on a rare number of occasions then so be it. Regrettable, sure, but other industries can’t always bail out the struggling railway, they have problems of their own.

Also, some people are obviously too young to remember the days when BR would just cut all evening/ Sunday services on some lines (with no franchise commitments to worry about, it was much easier to slash services!), no need to run replacement buses, but those were the good old days, apparently!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,905
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
While BR did withdraw services to save money, and in the case of some lines due to antisocial behaviour (which is why Kirkby-Wigan has long lacked much of an evening service, though it's creeping later with Kirkby no longer the ASB den it used to be), they didn't generally do it rather than provide RRBs.

Indeed, if anything, they were better at it in my experience. In particular, the threshold for providing taxis was only usually an hour or so - a missed connection or cancellation towards Ormskirk at Preston, say, would result, if you went and asked*, in a taxi warrant, which you'd then go upstairs and use at the taxi rank with the next cab, which would often beat the train to Ormskirk. Or if there was a cancellation, Preston would dispatch a few taxis to run all stations for a round trip while the problem was sorted. I don't doubt Lancaster would have done similar for Barrow, Morecambe or the Bentham.

OK, given, it's easier to do this for a typical quarter-full 153 on a branch line rather than a packed 12 car EMU on a London commuter run, but it isn't really done this efficiently anywhere any more, just cheaper. Were the days of Fraser Eagle perhaps the halcyon days of the RRB and taxi?

* And I do just mean asked - no complaining or whining necessary - just "I've just missed the Ormskirk as the Blackpool came in 10 minutes late, here's my ticket, can I have a taxi please?"
 
Last edited:

Flange Squeal

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2012
Messages
1,265
But then, some Railway people have no perspective of other public transport, they’ll moan that it took a couple of hours to rustle up a dozen buses when an unexpected event like a bridge strike/ signal failure means that trains are unable to run (as of bus companies should keep large numbers of vehicles/ drivers as hot standbys just in case the more important railway needs them at ultra short notice!)
I have worked both planned and emergency rail replacements have had staff pass comment that it has taken me 45-60 mins to “finally” arrive at a station when disruption has occurred. But when you consider what has likely happened is control has assessed the incident, a decision has been made to request buses, that request has been to their agent, their agent has rung around their supplier operators, those operators have in many cases either dropped what they’re doing in the office and/or phoned their casuals/between-schools drivers at home (as you say, bus companies don’t have loads of drivers sat around on the off chance!), any drivers coming in from home have arrived, walk around checks done, and vehicles driven from depot to starting station… Suddenly, when bus companies are quite often able to be on site in around an hour, their response is actually pretty damn good in many cases!

Rail replacement is still a good/useful income steam to have, even if some would argue the rates being paid haven’t risen as in line with costs as some bus/coach operators would ideally have liked them to, so I’m almost certain it won’t be a case of operators not wanting the work but indeed simply struggling to resource it alongside their other commitments.
 

Big Jumby 74

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
1,063
Location
UK
Just throwing this in for what's it's worth. I have no current knowledge at all: my experiences 'on the buses' go way back to London Transport days, well before bus de-regulation, and back then LT and the likes of London Country, and likely also Hants & Dorset etc (ie. the Nationalised bus industry) would often do rail replacement at weekends. At weekends many (LT in particular) garages were full of spare vehicles, most being required for SX work. While de-regulation may have been good for some aspects of the bus industry (perhaps?) has it also possibly led to a situation where those, like the railways, who relied upon them in the past, can no longer rely on what, if any spare resource now exists in the bus world? Just curious....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top