Rail Sail (Dublin) booking horizon

[gpmartin]

Hello. I will be travelling to Dublin for work in September (out 20th, back 22nd) and would like to avoid flying if possible. I've looked for Rail Sail tickets via Holyhead but they don't appear to be available yet - and they're not even showing for a month earlier. When can I expect to see them released? I'll be travelling from Tutbury if that makes a difference. Thanks.

 

[MrJeeves]

Hello. I will be travelling to Dublin for work in September (out 20th, back 22nd) and would like to avoid flying if possible. I've looked for Rail Sail tickets via Holyhead but they don't appear to be available yet - and they're not even showing for a month earlier. When can I expect to see them released? I'll be travelling from Tutbury if that makes a difference. Thanks.

I've always had issues trying to find itineraries for Rail Sail.

Sometimes, looking at Belfast via Cairnryan, I have to split from my local station to find a ticket that has reservations available.

I can see tickets available for the middle of August on the forum's tickets site, though: https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/results?FromStation=7017830&ToStation=70M4990&Adults=1&OutboundDate=17/08/2023&OutboundTime=20:15

 

[Benjwri]

As this is an Advance ticket you're going to be restricted by booking horizons. Surprisingly Avanti and EMR are offering reservations already, however the issue here is Transport for Wales. They do not open bookings until 6 weeks before travel, so you will not be able to book the ticket until around the 9th August. More details on booking horizons here:

Transport for Wales​

Transport for Wales advance tickets are available 6 weeks in advance of travel.

Latest time of reservation:​

Up to 19:00 day before travel for some early morning trains. Other services up to 4 hours before departure point of origin.

 

[MrJeeves]

As this is an Advance ticket you're going to be restricted by booking horizons. Surprisingly Avanti and EMR are offering reservations already, however the issue here is Transport for Wales. They do not open bookings until 6 weeks before travel, so you will not be able to book the ticket until around the 9th August. More details on booking horizons here:

Flexible Rail Sail is also available, but reservations are still compulsory on the ship leg.

 

[Benjwri]

Flexible Rail Sail is also available, but reservations are still compulsory on the ship leg.

Ah, I didn't bother to read the description and assumed standby meant the same thing as on a plane!

 

[gpmartin]

Thanks folks. Will look again in early August.

 

[gpmartin]

Hello again. A further question on the Sail Rail Holyhead to Dublin route. Does anyone know if it would be possible to take a folding bike (Brompton) on the ferry? I'm thinking here firstly in terms of restrictions on hand luggage, and secondly in terms of the practicalities of cycling safely and legally from the port to the city centre. Thanks!

 

[kkong]

Hello again. A further question on the Sail Rail Holyhead to Dublin route. Does anyone know if it would be possible to take a folding bike (Brompton) on the ferry? I'm thinking here firstly in terms of restrictions on hand luggage, and secondly in terms of the practicalities of cycling safely and legally from the port to the city centre. Thanks!

Stena Line policy is:

For foot passengers travelling to France, to Ireland and to the UK from Ireland, there is no limit to the amount of luggage you can bring with you, however, hand luggage must be no larger than 60cm x 50cm x 40cm and you must be able to carry it yourself.
If you are travelling with luggage that is larger than this it must be checked-in prior to boarding.
Your luggage will be safely stowed during the sailing and can be collected upon arrival in the terminal.
You will not be able to access your luggage during the sailing so please ensure you remove all necessary items before checking it in.

Whereas Irish Ferries state:

You can bring as much hand luggage as you can comfortably carry, but it must be packed in a suitcase or bag.
No boxes or loose items are acceptable as hand luggage.
One small piece of hand luggage will be permitted to be carried with you – the rest will be checked through our luggage handling facility.
Please note that each item of checked in luggage must not weigh more than 22kg and you will not be able to access these items during the crossing.

I cannot comment on the safety or otherwise of travelling on such a small bicycle through Dublin Port, other than to say it may not be the best idea if you're on an early morning arrival when it will be dark.

 

[Trainbike46]

Hello again. A further question on the Sail Rail Holyhead to Dublin route. Does anyone know if it would be possible to take a folding bike (Brompton) on the ferry? I'm thinking here firstly in terms of restrictions on hand luggage, and secondly in terms of the practicalities of cycling safely and legally from the port to the city centre. Thanks!

I've not used the Dublin route, but I have brought my full-size bike on the Belfast SailRail route (which is Stena Line) without any problems, and a folded bike would be easier. It also appears to be acceptable under the luggage policy, though you may wish to check it in rather than carry as hand luggage. I don't think they would stop you from carrying it as hand luggage if you really wanted to.

I would consider taking the bus (with your folded bike) to the city centre as ports aren't usually the best place to cycle, though I don't have local knowledge of Dublin, so can't be sure.

 

[gpmartin]

Thank you both - that is very helpful.

 

[181]

the practicalities of cycling safely and legally from the port to the city centre.

I'm sure it's perfecty legal to cycle to and from Dublin port. From my observations from the bus, I wouldn't expect it to be dangerous, but it might not be the pleasantest of rides. Only the individual cyclist can decide for themself what's acceptable.

I've not used the Dublin route, but I have brought my full-size bike on the Belfast SailRail route (which is Stena Line) without any problems, and a folded bike would be easier. It also appears to be acceptable under the luggage policy, though you may wish to check it in rather than carry as hand luggage. I don't think they would stop you from carrying it as hand luggage if you really wanted to.

(Probably not relevant to the OP, but maybe of interest to others). I've never taken a bike on the Holyhead route, and only done it on one return journey many years ago via Fishguard, but more generally my experience of taking full size bikes on roll-on/roll-off ferries is that you check in with the cars rather than taking the bike as foot passengers' luggage. I don't know how that interacts with the use of a SailRail ticket, though -- maybe that make a difference.

 

[BRX]

Good to hear of new sail rail tickets appearing (rather than gradually being cut back which is what usually feels is the trend).

However there are a lot of details to be addressed to make these journeys easier for people to book and carry out, if they are going to be tempted away from flying.

I did Dublin-Holyhead-London a week or so ago using Irish Ferries.

It's not easy to work out how to get to the port from dublin city centre. The Irish ferries website suggests you can use a regular dublin bus service (but provides dead links to the information) and then recommends you use an "express shuttle" run by Nolan's Coaches which is what I attempted to do. You have to navigate your way through some slightly confusing PDF timetables (different on different dates) and work out where the bus stop is (which is not at the bus station or either of the main reason stations).

On the day I tried this the bus simply didn't show up. Two other people were waiting too - we'd all independently come to the conclusion that this was the right place, and a sign at the bus stop confirmed it. Eventually we had to get a taxi at the last minute and just made the ferry. Because we could split the cost it wasn't too bad but if I'd had to pay the taxi fare myself it would have been going on for half the cost of the whole rail-sail ticket to London.

What was worst about this experience was Irish Ferries complete disinterest when I complained (by email) after the event. All they would say was they don't operate the bus so not their problem. I tried to say that maybe they had some responsibility to check that the info on their website is reliable, and that they would have a bit more leverage than I would in following it up with the coach company. But, no interest, computer says no. It certainly left me with the impression that they are not really bothered about the experience of rail-sail passengers.

 

[Watershed]

It certainly left me with the impression that they are not really bothered about the experience of rail-sail passengers.

I think it's simply that they don't care much about foot passengers in the first place, since they're marginal to the overall operation of their business - which now primarily consists of transporting HGVs.

 

[janb]

It's not easy to work out how to get to the port from dublin city centre. The Irish ferries website suggests you can use a regular dublin bus service (but provides dead links to the information) and then recommends you use an "express shuttle" run by Nolan's Coaches which is what I attempted to do. You have to navigate your way through some slightly confusing PDF timetables (different on different dates) and work out where the bus stop is (which is not at the bus station or either of the main reason stations).

Dublin Bus website is terrible in not having a map. Have to go to Transport for Ireland map, click on the stop to see what stops there and then go back to Dublin Bus to see the pdf. Looks like number 53 is the route. https://www.dublinbus.ie/getmedia/3d54de55-3501-456f-9199-1b39856d2812/Route-53.pdf?ext=.pdf

As for the Nolan's Coaches pdf, yeah, I'm struggling to get my head round that.

 

[BRX]

I think it's simply that they don't care much about foot passengers in the first place, since they're marginal to the overall operation of their business - which now primarily consists of transporting HGVs.

Yes, this of course is the basic reason.

I was wondering what the economics of it are. I think I counted about 20-30 foot passengers on my crossing. I assume the main cost for the ferry company is running the bus at each end. Once you are doing that though, there can't be much marginal cost for each extra passenger. Presumably they also make some cash from spending on board.

Dublin Bus website is terrible in not having a map. Have to go to Transport for Ireland map, click on the stop to see what stops there and then go back to Dublin Bus to see the pdf. Looks like number 53 is the route. https://www.dublinbus.ie/getmedia/3d54de55-3501-456f-9199-1b39856d2812/Route-53.pdf?ext=.pdf

Apparently too much effort for Irish Ferries to update their website with that link though!

https://www.irishferries.com/uk-en/frequently-asked-questions/our-ports/Dublin-bus-times/

 

[paul1609]

The bottom lines are:
The sail rail market is tiny.
There is not going to ever be a significant mode shift from Ryanair.
The percentage of the tiny number of sail rail passengers using the connecting bus is small, most are either picked up or use a taxi direct to the hotel etc.
The percentage of the small number of the tiny market that can't use Google maps to see that the 53 bus runs hourly from Conolly Station to the ferry port is small.
Holyhead had a average of 120,000 entries and exits pa pre pandemic that's ferry and local passengers. The only reason the station still has a direct service to London is purely political it must beyond Bangor be the most uneconomical "inter city" service in the UK. .

 

[Hadders]

I was wondering what the economics of it are. I think I counted about 20-30 foot passengers on my crossing. I assume the main cost for the ferry company is running the bus at each end. Once you are doing that though, there can't be much marginal cost for each extra passenger. Presumably they also make some cash from spending on board.

Staff at each end to check tickets and staff departure lounges, security staffing etc.

All for a handful of passengers. The sail rail market is tiny and it’s not going to compete with the low cost airlines.

 

[BRX]

And yet it continues to operate. Is that because they are required to provide foot passenger transport, by some kind of agreement or licence?

 

[Haywain]

I was wondering what the economics of it are. I think I counted about 20-30 foot passengers on my crossing. I assume the main cost for the ferry company is running the bus at each end.

The reality is that the costs, while perhaps not huge, are unlikely to be covered by the fares income. If that position becomes untenable, there are not many options available to reduce the resulting loss.

 

[Hadders]

And yet it continues to operate. Is that because they are required to provide foot passenger transport, by some kind of agreement or licence?

I don’t know if there’s any requirement to convey foot passengers but numbers are in decline and they’re never going to get back to anything near where they once were. The fact that foot passengers are no longer carried on some services speaks volumes.

I can see an argument for through coach services eg Glasgow to Belfast where the passengers can board the ferry on the coach and technically aren’t food passengers.

 

[Haywain]

where the passengers can board the ferry on the coach and technically aren’t food passengers.

Food passengers?

 

[kkong]

Staff at each end to check tickets and staff departure lounges, security staffing etc.

All for a handful of passengers. The sail rail market is tiny and it’s not going to compete with the low cost airlines.

In my recent experience at UK and RoI ports, there are many more foot passengers than Sail Rail passengers.

So the staff, departure lounges, security etc would still be required even if Sail Rail were to be discontinued.

I can't imagine foot passengers will be banned from Irish Sea crossings any time soon... there would be political uproar.

 

[Flying Snail]

I don’t know if there’s any requirement to convey foot passengers but numbers are in decline and they’re never going to get back to anything near where they once were. The fact that foot passengers are no longer carried on some services speaks volumes.

I can see an argument for through coach services eg Glasgow to Belfast where the passengers can board the ferry on the coach and technically aren’t food passengers.

As someone who has used this route consistently for decades I do not recognise this decline you are asserting, what facts do you have to support the claim that numbers are in decline?

I also know of no services that have stopped carrying foot passengers, which services are these?

There already are through coach services on Belfast - Cairnryan, Dublin - Holyhead and Larne - Cairnryan. The latter two being only a few per week since covid. The service via Rosslare - Pembroke was dropped in 2020.

There is no requirement to provide foot passenger service on any route, they are all purely commercial.

 

[greatkingrat]

I also know of no services that have stopped carrying foot passengers, which services are these?

2 of the 4 Irish Ferries services between Holyhead and Dublin do not carry foot passengers

Ferry Holyhead to Dublin | Routes & Times | Irish Ferries

Sail on the Dublin-Holyhead route with Irish Ferries from just 2 hours 15 mins port to port, in our fast ferry Dublin Swift or 3 hours 25 mins our luxury cruise ferry Ulysses. For our cheapest prices book online.

www.irishferries.com

 

[Hadders]

There’s only one sailing a day between Cairnryan and Belfast available to SailRail passengers. There used to be three.

 

[Flying Snail]

2 of the 4 Irish Ferries services between Holyhead and Dublin do not carry foot passengers

Ferry Holyhead to Dublin | Routes & Times | Irish Ferries

Sail on the Dublin-Holyhead route with Irish Ferries from just 2 hours 15 mins port to port, in our fast ferry Dublin Swift or 3 hours 25 mins our luxury cruise ferry Ulysses. For our cheapest prices book online.

www.irishferries.com

They have never carried foot passengers since that rotation was started in 2013, IF have consistently refused to carry foot passengers on the low passenger capacity Epsilon, even those displaced by cancellations of the similarly timed fast ferry.

Epsilon will be leaving that route later this year, most likely replaced by Oscar Wilde currently on the Pembroke route which has a much higher passenger rating. It is probable they will start taking foot passengers as they have done on previous occasions when other ships temporarily replaced Epsilon, at least for the day sailings.

There’s only one sailing a day between Cairnryan and Belfast available to SailRail passengers. There used to be three.

That's down to the running of the sail-rail coach from Ayr.

4 out of the 6 daily sailings take foot passengers (and the 2 coach companies with services on most of these) as they have done since the switch from Stranraer 12 years ago.

 

[Hadders]

That's down to the running of the sail-rail coach from Ayr.

But why have they reduced the number of Sail Rail journey opportunities?

Presumably because ticket sales were falling.

I do admit that a bus connection isn’t ideal as part of a SailRail journey but ISTR that the move from Stranraer to Cairnryan reduced the overall journey time.

 

[paul1609]

As someone who has used this route consistently for decades I do not recognise this decline you are asserting, what facts do you have to support the claim that numbers are in decline?

I also know of no services that have stopped carrying foot passengers, which services are these?

There already are through coach services on Belfast - Cairnryan, Dublin - Holyhead and Larne - Cairnryan. The latter two being only a few per week since covid. The service via Rosslare - Pembroke was dropped in 2020.

There is no requirement to provide foot passenger service on any route, they are all purely commercial.

What are the coach companies running coaches on Dublin to Holyhead? I'm only aware of a National Express overnight connection from an Irish Ferry to London

 

[kkong]

What are the coach companies running coaches on Dublin to Holyhead? I'm only aware of a National Express overnight connection from an Irish Ferry to London

https://www.expressway.ie/eurolines

 

[paul1609]

https://www.expressway.ie/eurolines

Ah that's the service now advertised as National Express.