Rail strikes discussion

[thelongestroad]

Does anyone know what's likely to happen if there is no agreement after the first set of strikes? The same thing every week or do they have to give another 2 week notice period?

Seems like we're in the pawns in the middle of the willy waving contest between the RMT and the government. Unfortunately I think it'll drag on.

 

[RPI]

Seems like we're in the pawns in the middle of the willy waving contest between the RMT and the government. Unfortunately I think it'll drag on.

Summed up in one paragraph. Meanwhile us staff are the collateral damage in the middle.

That said, I do think now we should be getting a pay rise, I'd be happy with 5%, I'm not on a particularly large salary.

 

[sonic2009]

Whilst i agree with the strikes, and understand that the cost of living is increasing and sometimes wages dont.

But if this continues on for a few months, could we see long term effects on the railway? Public trust in the railway lost? Declining numbers?

 

[jon0844]

Whilst i agree with the strikes, and understand that the cost of living is increasing and sometimes wages dont.

But if this continues on for a few months, could we see long term effects on the railway? Public trust in the railway lost? Declining numbers?

I can't see with rising fuel costs, and rising prices for new and second hand cars, that people will be able to afford to give up rail even if this dispute goes on for a while.

Taxis, buses and coaches may benefit, or a lot of people will simply work from home - having the necessary equipment to do so. But, thanks to Boris and other commercial landlords - you can be sure that few will be able to go back to home working for too long.

I think the school holidays will be a problem for the RMT if more strikes take place in August. While commuters are going to be most impacted, the photos of families missing their trip to the beach (or airport - but their flights may be cancelled anyway) will be seized upon by the media and politicians alike.

 

[skyhigh]

Why? Do you not accept others have opinions that differ to yours?

I'm quite happy to accept that others have differing opinions, but the post I quoted is pretty much hot air written by someone who doesn't understand the issues. In detail:

All I know is that if the rail staff go for a proper balls to the wall strike they will (as a collective) lose long term.

That is open to debate.

I do not begrudge their pay but it is generally higher than similarly skilled jobs.

Let's take a guard for example. At my TOC the pay is around £28,000. Long shifts with starting times from around 0345 and the latest finish times around 0200. The personal responsibility is that if you do something wrong you could end up in prison. Not to mention the fact that you are frequently assessed. The salary seems fair for the work. And not to mention this dispute is not just about pay.

There is huge untapped supply of replacement staff which could be taken up.

Where are these staff?

There are archaic practices on the railway and if starting from scratch other ways of working could be introduced (even if less safe - there is a lot of safety to "play with" - we don't have to be as safe as we currently are).

Good luck with that. I'd hate to be the one standing up in court after a death saying "yes we deliberately made things less safe than before because it was cheaper for us". It's simply not how the legal and regulatory system works in this country.

 

[Horizon22]

To be fair......If you're going to use the average train driver salary you should also use an average pilot salary for a comparison. Not the lowest basic salary of a Ryanair pilot.
I don't know what an average pilot earns per year but it will clearly be much more than £39k. And fair enough

If we are being fair - and again ASLEF are generally not in dispute - based on conversations and threads on this forum, then we know the average driver is on more than £45K. The jump from trainee to qualified driver is often huge.

 

[43096]

Seems like we're in the pawns in the middle of the willy waving contest between the RMT and the government. Unfortunately I think it'll drag on.

We keep being told that it’s the union members who make the decision to strike or not, not the leadership? The membership voted for it. You made your bed, now go lie in it.

 

[JohntyRogers]

I think the good people of this Country need to to come together. The state has really done a number on us, we fight amougnst ourselves and resent other professions getting pay rises. I'm guilty of it myself, every time I saw teachers complaining I found myself saying, they are in 30plus grand, that's enough. But actually it's not right. It's what the state wants. We have been indoctrinated to applaud billionaires and record profits from large corporate firms, yet the individual making money is seen as greedy, wrong and dirty. Why on earth is the individual having money so distasteful to this country, yet hurray for billion pound revenue generating coffee shops that pay zero tax are fantastic. The tides need to change in this country, and I'm changing my view, I'm supporting any profession getting a pay rise, any increase anywhere is another chip at the stus quo and will eventually filter into other professions. I hope. So go for it teachers, NHS staff, ambulance drivers and whoever else.... I point out MP'S got a 4500 payrise this last time around, as they always do it seems. But not the people, your not allowed money.

 

[wobman]

I don't know enough to really understand the rights and wrongs of specific grievances.

All I know is that if the rail staff go for a proper balls to the wall strike they will (as a collective) lose long term. The public are not with them. The government are not with them. The opposition are not with them. I do not begrudge their pay but it is generally higher than similarly skilled jobs. There is huge untapped supply of replacement staff which could be taken up. There are archaic practices on the railway and if starting from scratch other ways of working could be introduced (even if less safe - there is a lot of safety to "play with" - we don't have to be as safe as we currently are).

It's so sad to see turkeys voting for Christmas like this. Especially when they appear to be led by Bernard Mathews.

Can you list the "safe" elements of the railways you want to "play with" sounds like you want to return to the dark ages?

People making these sweeping statements without facts & without actually understanding the dispute, instead of believing the right wing press written by the tories.

 

[ComUtoR]

The passenger only sees a very limited view of the railway and how it works. They tend to see the railway as Driver/train/signals/track with not much else. There is a plethora of jobs and people that ensures the trains run smoothly. The back office folk, the support staff, admin, maintenance, IT, customer service, delay attribution. planning, and a whole lot more.

This isn't just about Guard/Driver/Signaller

 

[Gems]

My biggest fear about these strikes is "How do you end them?" When you have 13 TOC's plus NR, how do you negotiate with that. I fear we are going to get bogged down in a war of attrition. Every TOC is on different terms and conditions, so where is the negotiating bar.?
To me (And I hate to say this) it does look like the RMT have bitten off far more than they can chew. It's clear it has a political slant. It's also clear talking to my colleagues that a sizable majority are not prepared to loose too much money. At the same time the railway is crippled anyway because of the uncertainty of what could be run.
The RMT in that sense has played a blinder. But it isn't going to end well.

 

[Towers]

My biggest fear about these strikes is "How do you end them?" When you have 13 TOC's plus NR, how do you negotiate with that. I fear we are going to get bogged down in a war of attrition. Every TOC is on different terms and conditions, so where is the negotiating bar.?
To me (And I hate to say this) it does look like the RMT have bitten off far more than they can chew. It's clear it has a political slant. It's also clear talking to my colleagues that a sizable majority are not prepared to loose too much money. At the same time the railway is crippled anyway because of the uncertainty of what could be run.
The RMT in that sense has played a blinder. But it isn't going to end well.

In some ways I strongly suspect the strikes will end themselves; certainly plenty of frontline grades are unlikely to be prepared to keep striking repeatedly for months on end, and quite frankly over what seems a rather vague and confused dispute in many places. Plenty of guards will I suspect be working through strike days if the RMT are intending to announce them three days at a time every few weeks throughout the summer.

 

[muz379]

My biggest fear about these strikes is "How do you end them?" When you have 13 TOC's plus NR, how do you negotiate with that. I fear we are going to get bogged down in a war of attrition. Every TOC is on different terms and conditions, so where is the negotiating bar.?
To me (And I hate to say this) it does look like the RMT have bitten off far more than they can chew. It's clear it has a political slant. It's also clear talking to my colleagues that a sizable majority are not prepared to loose too much money. At the same time the railway is crippled anyway because of the uncertainty of what could be run.
The RMT in that sense has played a blinder. But it isn't going to end well.

Nationally talks have already happened at the rail industry recovery group .

If the government were serious about settling it they'd engage through that forum .

 

[Vespa]

The strike will drive away passengers and move them over to cars, yes the fuel prices have gone up as has the prices of cars, yet the public wants to have reliable transports and cars are there when you want it and it's convenient, they may not come back.

In the 60s and 70s people found it easier to use the cars than the trains so British Railways suffered losses, now most travellers tends to be either commuters or leisure travellers rather than using the trains as the main means of transport, alienate both you lose your raison d'etre.

Without passengers there is no railways or any point to it.

This strike whatever the rights and wrongs of it, will be a death of a thousand cuts for the TOCs, employees and the railway industry.

 

[muz379]

The strike will drive away passengers and move them over to cars, yes the fuel prices have gone up as has the prices of cars, yet the public wants to have reliable transports and cars are there when you want it and it's convenient, they may not come back.

In the 60s and 70s people found it easier to use the cars than the trains so British Railways suffered losses, now most travellers tends to be either commuters or leisure travellers rather than using the trains as the main means of transports, alienate both you lose your raison d'etre.

Without passengers there is no railways or any point to it.

This strike whatever the rights and wrongs of it will be a death of a thousand cuts for the TOCs, employees and the railway industry.

This argument keeps getting put accross . But I wonder the numbers behind it .

How many who use the railways for leisure travel now already own cars but use the train for their journeys ? Be it because they can have a drink , aren't confident driving that far , don't want to drive that far etc . I own a car but I still use the railway for some leisure journeys for a combination of reasons .

Therefore maybe this summer with the threat of strikes all summer they'll use their cars but what is to say they won't return in future. Almost every thread about rail strikes on here comes with the prophecies of the passengers never returning and yet leisure travel now is higher than before covid .

 

[AlterEgo]

As always, ASLEF are the union to watch during industrial discontent. They’re much more selective in their battles than the RMT, less overtly political and overall they are much more pragmatic.

I tend to agree with the view that the RMT has gamed itself into a corner. They wanted the government to control the railways and so that is what they have. The Conservative Party controlling the railways during a cost of living crisis and during a time the railway’s staff are ripe for “modernisation and reskilling”. Well done.

The politics and public approval do matter and I think the government have a solid political case to squeeze the railway’s pips. My first thought when the railways were sending out messages of “hello! Don’t dare travel with us” during the pandemic was “how much is this costing, to keep them running, with staff on full wages, and how will that be used against frontline staff when this is over?”.

That’s not a personal assessment of whether I think the strikes are justified or not, but a glum appraisal of where this might end. Ultimately, a couple of golden bridges for the RMT to retreat over but a strategic defeat from which it may not recover for a generation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2022 ==

Therefore maybe this summer with the threat of strikes all summer they'll use their cars but what is to say they won't return in future. Almost every thread about rail strikes on here comes with the prophecies of the passengers never returning and yet leisure travel now is higher than before covid .

But your average leisure traveller has a far lower tolerance for strikes, is much more price sensitive and far flakier than the nice rump of commuters on season tickets that used to give the train companies such security.

Cost of living is starting to bite and days by the sea and going out to a city to see the museums will be one of the first things to fall by the wayside.

 

[matt_world2004]

Personally while I support the aims of the strike. I believe the Tory government has baited the railway unions into this positions and I am suspicious as to why

 

[DC1989]

The daily mail (I know, I know) reported at the weekend that rail staff have extra time for their lunch and breaks etc to cover walking to the messroom. But in some cases the walk is 5 mins etc but they get 15 mins allowance to walk there. Surely this can't be true?

 

[Vespa]

Therefore maybe this summer with the threat of strikes all summer they'll use their cars but what is to say they won't return in future. Almost every thread about rail strikes on here comes with the prophecies of the passengers never returning and yet leisure travel now is higher than before covid .

I'm interested as to how you arrived at this "leisure travel now is higher than before covid" when it's been stated that passenger numbers are 60%-80% of pre pandemic depending which media sources you read.

But your average leisure traveller has a far lower tolerance for strikes, is much more price sensitive and far flakier than the nice rump of commuters on season tickets that used to give the train companies such security.

Cost of living is starting to bite and days by the sea and going out to a city to see the museums will be one of the first things to fall by the wayside.

As Alterego said customer are more price sensitive and more likely to pare costs especially if it involves booking 4 tickets when one car will do it or simply visit locally especially free attraction.

Season ticket holders may either not renew and work from home.

 

[skyhigh]

But in some cases the walk is 5 mins etc but they get 15 mins allowance to walk there. Surely this can't be true?

Very much depends. It might be 5 minutes as they've timed from the door of the messroom on the concourse to the platform - but that doesn't include walking down two flights of stairs to get to that door, queuing to get through the barriers at busy times etc. In these cases that extra walking time is also useful padding in times of disruption as it doesn't form part of the official break.

Anywhere I've worked the walking times have been pretty realistic.

 

[Caaardiff]

What cripples the railway is the reliance of out of date workings of weekend and rest day work. The railway should be run in all aspects as a 24/7 operation. However many involved in these strikes don't get the same benefits or options as train crew and others entitled to an abundance of rest days. It's the train crew unions pulling the strings but there's so many other roles affected by this.
Give the necessary pay rises to all concerned but shake up the whole process. Start running the railway for the passengers and make it so there's less reliance on overtime and passengers can expect a consistent and reliable 7 day a week service.

Also the argument of the cost of living crisis isn't really justifiable. The cost of living crisis won't last forever, but wage increases will. What happens when it's over? Will unions agree to no pay rises for the next few years to balance things out again? Maybe some kind of bonus supplement would be better to support those through the crisis.

 

[AlterEgo]

Very much depends. It might be 5 minutes as they've timed from the door of the messroom on the concourse to the platform - but that doesn't include walking down two flights of stairs to get to that door, queuing to get through the barriers at busy times etc. In these cases that extra walking time is also useful padding in times of disruption as it doesn't form part of the official break.

Anywhere I've worked the walking times have been pretty realistic.

And the walking time is a bit like the minimum connection time - it assumes you arrive at the station at the far side of where you need to be and is very conservative as a result. It isn't really an issue, because the end result is safety critical staff get a protected meal break which is very important in a job where you can kill people.

 

[High Dyke]

The daily mail (I know, I know) reported at the weekend that rail staff have extra time for their lunch and breaks etc to cover walking to the messroom. But in some cases the walk is 5 mins etc but they get 15 mins allowance to walk there. Surely this can't be true?

Firstly, i don't read a daily paper, or look at their online content, so can't comment on what was in them. Is it possible to provide a quote / link to the article you refer to please?

I can only speak from my own perspective. I don't receive any payment for meal breaks, nor have any planned breaks away from the operating floor. I'm expected to eat and take comfort breaks between trains. Now in a location that has two trains per-hour that is easily manageable, but a location with 16 trains p/h presents a challenge. In larger signalling centres there may be a meal relief available, but not always guaranteed. I'm sure those staff that work for TOC's will be able to provide accurate information on their own circumstances.

 

[Typhoon]

To me there are two classes of employees who are disadvantaged in the labour market. Those who undertake work which is deemed to be a 'calling', carried out for the good of others (nurses, loads of other NHS and other public service staff, I would add teachers and lecturers as I was formerly one - just above £35k for managing more than a dozen staff as well as the teaching workload), and jobs that are traditionally considered 'working class' (or 'blue collar', like the railways) and it is a mistake to play one against the other which some appear to be doing.

We are regularly fed the 'High-wage, high-skilled economy' mantra. If you do that, you must expect people to claim that since they are highly skilled, they deserve high wages. I saw some of the things my father produced, he worked in a factory, producing precision parts, he was highly skilled but was paid pennies - because factory work is 'working class', his brother worked in the office (same company), wore a shirt and tie, paid a hell of a lot more because working in an office was a middle class occupation because it involves 'using the brain' rather than being 'manual work' - that involves using the brain. I know things have changed but I don't think we are over that mentality that treats certain tasks as 'manual', so low paid, work continues, even though it requires considerable skill and responsibility. Maybe we are still living in the world that I grew up in, where my main connection with the railway was the level crossing operator near my primary school, four times an hour when the alert came, shut the road gates, lock the footpath gates, presumably change the signals for that crossing (its a long time ago - and there was a signal box not too far away at the station), then reverse; or maybe the world of Mr Perks.

Incidentally, if railways employ 'ticket checker's and 'whistle-blowers' are MPs 'barracker's or 'heckler's?

To the statement that

When all stations have barriers then conductors will be unnecessary anyway.

- Oh good, my nearest station will have to be staffed for 20 hours a day rather than the 3-and-a-half it is currently (sometimes).
(If it isn't the miscreants without tickets who hang around will just climb over the barrier, while oldies like me whose ticket, purchased with a railcard, won't always open the barrier will be stuck - I smell compensation!)

 

[ComUtoR]

The daily mail (I know, I know) reported at the weekend that rail staff have extra time for their lunch and breaks etc to cover walking to the messroom. But in some cases the walk is 5 mins etc but they get 15 mins allowance to walk there. Surely this can't be true?

True, but misleading.

 

[LowLevel]

The daily mail (I know, I know) reported at the weekend that rail staff have extra time for their lunch and breaks etc to cover walking to the messroom. But in some cases the walk is 5 mins etc but they get 15 mins allowance to walk there. Surely this can't be true?

It's not true in the way they represent it. The reason is to make diagrams robust for traincrew and prevent delays. Timing a 3 minute walk at 5 or 6 minutes allows a bit of padding for things like people stopping you to ask questions, or an escalator being broken, it also gives a base to build diagrams from.

Anyone who thinks walking time is inherently generous should try getting off a train at Nottingham on platform 1C, walking to 7C, getting on and ready and then departing in 5 minutes - that's the guard's walking time there.

 

[muz379]

I'm interested as to how you arrived at this "leisure travel now is higher than before covid" when it's been stated that passenger numbers are 60%-80% of pre pandemic depending which media sources you read.

As Alterego said customer are more price sensitive and more likely to pare costs especially if it involves booking 4 tickets when one car will do it or simply visit locally especially free attraction.

Season ticket holders may either not renew and work from home.

I've seen it being widely reported that leisure travel is above pre pandemic levels . As well as hearing senior managers at my toc stating the same . There is plenty of opportunity to grow leisure travel as well given how weak Sunday services are . But that can only happen if the unions are engaged .

I appreciate that leisure travellers are less of reliable income stream. On the matter of price sensitivity though they can be enticed with cheap advanced fates which can compete with the cost of driving.

My point is everytime there is a strike people warn the passengers won't return . Yet TPE have just had several weekends of strike . Northern had countless weekends during the DOO dispute and yet leisure demand is still high .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2022 ==

It's not true in the way they represent it. The reason is to make diagrams robust for traincrew and prevent delays. Timing a 3 minute walk at 5 or 6 minutes allows a bit of padding for things like people stopping you to ask questions, or an escalator being broken, it also gives a base to build diagrams from.

Anyone who thinks walking time is inherently generous should try getting off a train at Nottingham on platform 1C, walking to 7C, getting on and ready and then departing in 5 minutes - that's the guard's walking time there.

Exactly this , you can trim the walking time down but then don't expect staff to stop to answer passengers questions or take trains out on time if they arrive a few minutes down .

We can work upto 10 hrs 30 with a minimum 30 minute break , are we really begrudging staff a couple of extra minutes on their walking time ?

 

[wobman]

The daily mail (I know, I know) reported at the weekend that rail staff have extra time for their lunch and breaks etc to cover walking to the messroom. But in some cases the walk is 5 mins etc but they get 15 mins allowance to walk there. Surely this can't be true?

Does anyone actually believe the daily fail, there journalists are terrible at fact checking. They make up stories to provoke the usual outcry from its readers.

Walking times are worked out by the company / union, the traincrew don't choose the times. if anything they are not long enough. I get 4minutes to walk across a platform then bridge & up the down 2 sets of busy stairs. It's not exactly generous, remember this is written by journalists that get expenses for going the pub & are in the pocket of Boris!

There's examples of traincrew diagrams on this forum & that explains how the working day is layed out minute by minute.

 

[Gems]

The daily mail (I know, I know) reported at the weekend that rail staff have extra time for their lunch and breaks etc to cover walking to the messroom. But in some cases the walk is 5 mins etc but they get 15 mins allowance to walk there. Surely this can't be true?

Please don't believe everything the Daily Fail prints. Walking time allowances are not just plucked out of thin air. In many cases they are lower than is needed. The number of times I have eaten in to my break to hand lost luggage in at the left luggage place is unreal.
All this Tory rag is doing is printing lie after lie to divide the public. It's not a serious newspaper. If you really want truth you are better asking rail workers on here.

 

[Mintona]

So after the strikes next week, when the RMT have lost their members at least two day’s pay, what happens next? What is their next move?

The government will say ‘we’re not giving you a payrise’. The RMT will announce more strike dates. And we’ll continue ad infinitum. The RMT (and soon probably ASLEF) cannot win this fight.