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Rail strikes discussion

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Gems

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So after the strikes next week, when the RMT have lost their members at least two day’s pay, what happens next? What is their next move?

The government will say ‘we’re not giving you a payrise’. The RMT will announce more strike dates. And we’ll continue ad infinitum. The RMT (and soon probably ASLEF) cannot win this fight.
Big question isn't it. "What next?" The direction of these strikes is wholly down to how much workers are prepared to lose. When you consider as a average one days wage is roughly the same as 1% rise over a year, you don't need Carol Voderman to figure out once you get to around 4 or 5 days you have lost anything you are likely to gain in the first year.
You could argue that it might become trench warfare. (Like the miners) But I certainly arent getting those vibes.
 
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DC1989

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Firstly, i don't read a daily paper, or look at their online content, so can't comment on what was in them. Is it possible to provide a quote / link to the article you refer to please?
Here's some key parts of the article

The scene is rush-hour in Birmingham. Every few minutes, uniformed railway workers emerge from a modern building opposite the entrance to New Street station, cross the road, walk through automatic doors and head for a ticket barrier.

The entire journey, from a mess room named The Wedge, where staff take tea breaks, to one of the trains where they do their actual job, stretches to anything from 50 to about 350 yards, depending on what platform they’re departing from.

Covering this distance on foot would normally take an adult between 30 seconds and a couple of minutes. The only exception, during an evening I spent observing proceedings this week, involved a bearded ticket inspector who took a time-consuming detour to pick up a sausage roll from Greggs.

This, however, is the British rail network. And, as any hard-pressed commuter will tell you, it’s a world where reaching your destination often takes an awful lot longer than it should. Take these railway workers. Their short walks to and from The Wedge are not, on paper, taking a few seconds. Neither are they taking a couple of minutes. Instead, each round trip is officially timed in their daily work schedule at a whopping ten minutes.

The reason? A little-known industry perk known as a ‘walking allowance’. It dictates that any member of railway staff entitled to a specified break must be given extra time off to cover the process of strolling to and from their mess room. And those times are negotiated by the shop stewards of their militant trade unions.

So it goes that at Birmingham New Street a worker’s half-hour tea break actually lasts 40 minutes, with five minutes for each journey there and back. A source with knowledge of operations says that about 600 staff use The Wedge daily during shifts that typically include two rest periods. While not all are train crew, somewhere in the region of a thousand hours per week are nonetheless devoted to — or, some might argue, wasted on — walking

Similar rules apply at every station in the country under a Byzantine raft of highly generous trade union agreements that cost rail operators, and by extension passengers and the taxpayer, tens of millions of pounds every year.

At Victoria in London, for example, a single trip from the crew room to a platform is budgeted at ten minutes. At St Pancras in the capital, Southeastern drivers get a whopping 12 minutes to walk to their trains while their colleagues at East Midlands Trains get by with just five. Occasionally, negotiations surrounding this costly perk verge on the farcical.

Here in Birmingham, for example, Network Rail spent £750 million redeveloping New Street station in a five-year project completed in 2015. During construction, the staff mess room was temporarily moved to an upstairs annexe in a red brick building directly opposite the station called The Guildhall. ‘Because it was no longer “in the station”, the trade unions decided to renegotiate the walking allowance,’ says a management source.

Against this frothy backdrop, the rail industry’s Spanish practices are the subject of a growing PR war. On Wednesday, Huw Merriman MP, chairman of the Commons transport select committee, revealed that in addition to ‘walking allowances,’ some railway staff benefit from a bizarre rule that allows them to restart a scheduled break completely if they happen to bump into a manager who says ‘Hello’.

Under antiquated conventions, any conversation with the boss class counts as ‘work.’ Astonishingly, this invalidates any break-time. ‘Imagine your line manager stopping to say “Hello” when you are on a formal break,’ said Merriman. ‘In the office or on-site, that’s a positive sign of teamwork. Ludicrously, in the rail industry the rule book decrees that the break has to restart from the beginning.’

Elsewhere, an industry source told the Daily Mail last month that union resistance to modernisation was so ‘absurd’ that the RMT is blocking staff from using mobile apps to communicate with each other.

They said: ‘The use of an app is regarded as a matter of negotiation with the RMT — even a communications app. One of the most recent disputes was over managers using FaceTime during Covid to talk to staff because that was a technology that hadn’t been consulted on.’

In a similar vein, the RMT insists that engineers on Network Rail, which manages Britain’s track and signals, refuse to carry out repairs outside their specified areas.

For example, maintenance crews at Euston station in London are not permitted to complete repairs at King’s Cross station, less than half a mile away. And vice-versa.

‘There are times when we have havoc on one line with huge delays, but maintenance staff who happen to work on the other line sitting with their feet up,’ says one industry source. ‘It’s madness.’

Unions have also resisted fitting automatic sensors to trains that will check the track for defects. ‘Each one takes 70,000 pictures a minute and finds tiny cracks and flaws no human eye can see. But instead they insist on sending people out to walk along the track looking at the rails,’ adds the source. ‘Not only is this less likely to pick up problems, it’s more dangerous for staff. In the past two years alone, eight rail workers have been killed by trains while working on the track.’

Industry insiders say the worst Spanish practices have traditionally been kept under wraps by rail bosses amid concerns that calling them out will be regarded as provocative by rail unions and therefore trigger costly strikes

They are right to be concerned — so strike-prone is Aslef, the union representing drivers, that it once called a formal dispute over plans to replace a tea urn in a mess room with a kettle. However, eye-popping details about employment terms have nonetheless from time to time trickled out.

For example, in Scotland, which is currently facing its own crippling strikes, it emerged during an industrial dispute in the 2000s that train drivers can refuse to allow ScotRail to phone them at home to inform them of changes to shifts.

Instead, unions insisted that details had to be sent out in letters delivered via taxi. At the time, the average sickness leave for 70 drivers at Glasgow Central was 22 days per year (as opposed to a UK average of 7.8 days).

Drivers who turned up for work and reported that they had taken medication could demand to be sent home on full pay. Those who had undergone a routine medical examination lasting more than half an hour were also entitled to take the rest of the day off.

If services were running late (and, given the constraints above, they often were) workers could refuse to board a train if the delay would result in them moving into overtime, even for a few minutes, by the time they got home. If no one else could be found, both services — there and back — would simply be cancelled. Staff would then return to the mess room.

A dossier published jointly by rail companies in 2011, meanwhile, revealed that firms were paying maintenance contractors to prepare trains for operation up to the point of putting the key in the ignition — meaning drivers had only to get in the cab and turn the key to start their journey. Despite this, union-negotiated rules required them to pay drivers for 45 minutes before a journey to ‘prepare’ a train.

It further disclosed that drivers on a five-hour round trip are nonetheless routinely paid for three more hours in order to fill spare time on their eight hour shift.

In many corners of the rail network, such rules still apply. Attempting to abolish any inefficiencies, or make even minor changes to working practices, invariably leads to unions threatening to strike unless pay is also increased. Because of the massive cost and public inconvenience caused by industrial action, bosses almost always back down.

Over the years, this has led to remarkable pay rises. Department for Transport figures showed that last year the median salary of rail workers was £44,000, about 70 per cent above the national average of £26,000. By comparison, nurses earned £31,000, teachers £37,000 and care workers just £17,000. Police officers at the rank of sergeant and below earned £42,000.

Over the past decade, median earnings for train drivers have increased 39 per cent — far above the national average of 23 per cent, or 15 per cent for nurses. Rail workers can also retire at 62, earlier than civil servants, nurses and teachers. Drivers typically work a 36-hour week across four days. Some firms also give staff a week off for every four that they work — the equivalent of 13 weeks of holiday per year.

In one particularly ludicrous example of wage inflation, rail operators who decided in the 1990s to stop paying staff via envelopes filled with banknotes and instead use bank transfers were forced to give workers who signed up a £100 pay rise.

As befits this antiquated demographic, many of the most contentious rules at the centre of the coming strike action date back to the early 20th century.

Perhaps the most important revolves around Sunday working. At present, an agreement dating back to 1919 — an era when steam traction prevailed — prevents the vast majority of rail companies from requiring employees to work on the Sabbath.

Instead, they must be persuaded to take on extra shifts, usually by offering large financial incentives.

In an era when leisure travel represents an increasing proportion of rail journeys — the pandemic reduced peak weekday traffic but increased the proportion of weekend journeys — the Government argues that such conventions are entirely unsustainable.

After all, when the weather is sunny, or major sporting events are on television, volunteers tend to be hard to come by. On the day of the last World Cup final, to cite a notorious example, 170 train services across the North of England were cancelled, because many drivers opted out of overtime. Another 36 in the South-West were canned.

On a sunny day shortly afterwards, Northern cancelled nearly 60 trains because ‘staff have made themselves unavailable for work’. That year, some 35,000 trains across the UK failed to complete scheduled journeys due to a ‘lack of drivers’.
 

Vespa

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I've seen it being widely reported that leisure travel is above pre pandemic levels . As well as hearing senior managers at my toc stating the same . There is plenty of opportunity to grow leisure travel as well given how weak Sunday services are . But that can only happen if the unions are engaged .

I appreciate that leisure travellers are less of reliable income stream. On the matter of price sensitivity though they can be enticed with cheap advanced fates which can compete with the cost of driving.

My point is everytime there is a strike people warn the passengers won't return . Yet TPE have just had several weekends of strike . Northern had countless weekends during the DOO dispute and yet leisure demand is still high .
"Widely reported" covers a lot of things, the media I have read stated the opposite, of course certain media outlets will have a particular agenda from either pro rail, anti rail to the ambivalent.

What is clear is we are in a time of great squeeze on our finances, fuel, taxes and cost of living, after the great splurge during the pandemic its got to be paid back somehow, the impression I get is the railway industry has a higher than average salary grade with generous terms and conditions compared to the general public on minmum wage or less, the public will be so not supportive as a result.
 

muz379

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"Widely reported" covers a lot of things, the media I have read stated the opposite, of course certain media outlets will have a particular agenda from either pro rail, anti rail to the ambivalent.
I've not seen any reporting that leisure travel Is below pre pandemic levels .

Overall passenger journeys sure , but where is it mentioned leisure travel is reported as being above pre pandemic levels .

It was also stated in evidence given at the transport select committee on 29th march in an evidence session on GBR
 

Gems

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Here's some key parts of the article
Why, some very selective pieces in that. Let's just pick out a few bits to dissect.

(Train drivers can retire at 62) So can Joe Soap and Mrs Mopp if they so wish, as long as they have a pension that can cover their retirement. So the article is attacking drivers and rail workers who pay into a pension. Often these pensions are topped up with a previous pension. And when can MP's retire on a full pension? Try after 10 years.

(Northern cancelled 60 trains on the day of the world cup) Well, there is a simple solution to the rest day working part of the Northern agreement for the former North West part of the franchise. Negotiate in the agreement the east side has which generally works quite well. But they don't want to do that do they. And why not? Because it serves Northern to rely on overtime.
 

AlterEgo

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So after the strikes next week, when the RMT have lost their members at least two day’s pay, what happens next? What is their next move?

The government will say ‘we’re not giving you a payrise’. The RMT will announce more strike dates. And we’ll continue ad infinitum. The RMT (and soon probably ASLEF) cannot win this fight.
Yes. The OBS dispute on Southern was a war of attrition which ended with the loss of nearly a month’s pay for the striking members, and the union being weakened by its membership no longer retaining the same safety critical status. And this was before the cost of living issues we are facing today. It is a worrisome time.
 

DC1989

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Certainly rail workers shouldn't get paid extra to work on Sundays - I can't even imagine how that ever was agreed !
 

theking

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Certainly rail workers shouldn't get paid extra to work on Sundays - I can't even imagine how that ever was agreed !

Have you came out from under a rock?

Sunday used to be paid as a premium in this country for many jobs the fact that they sold off their terms and conditions doesn't mean that employees of the railway shouldn't be paid as per their terms and conditions.
 

JohntyRogers

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"Widely reported" covers a lot of things, the media I have read stated the opposite, of course certain media outlets will have a particular agenda from either pro rail, anti rail to the ambivalent.

What is clear is we are in a time of great squeeze on our finances, fuel, taxes and cost of living, after the great splurge during the pandemic its got to be paid back somehow, the impression I get is the railway industry has a higher than average salary grade with generous terms and conditions compared to the general public on minmum wage or less, the public will be so not supportive as a result.
"in a time of great squeeze". We are always in a a time of great squeeze according to the tories and Media. We have been in a time a of great squeeze since the last reccession 15 odd years ago. Why is it always the people, the workers, regular folk who have to foot the bill all the time and slerode their standard of life, record number using food banks, record personal debt simply to cover bills.

Why is it not the record setting corporations footing the bill for once? I have lost count how many of these business have made record profits during this "cost of living crisis" we don't have a cost of living crisis, we have a cost of greed crisis with big business.

The people of this country need to learn to support one another and stop doing the government and big business dirty work.
 

Gems

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Certainly rail workers shouldn't get paid extra to work on Sundays - I can't even imagine how that ever was agreed !
Because it served the purpose of the TOC as was cheaper for them. Let me give you a example. My depot.

If you bang say 17 Sundays into the link, you have to increase the amount of staff by roughly 8 to cover the extra hours rostered, on top of this it would cost a lot more when you take into account Employer national insurance and other staffing costs. So we have a agreement here that works really well. We can ask for our booked Sundays off, and if it can't be covered, we have to work it. You don't get cancelled trains because somebody can't be bothered to work, it doesn't happen, it is usually down to sickness or holidays.

Put away the Daily fail and ask the workers.
 

Fokx

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Certainly rail workers shouldn't get paid extra to work on Sundays - I can't even imagine how that ever was agreed !
It’s the busiest day of the week with the fewest services.

Morrisons supermarket even pays extra for working Sundays
 

DarloRich

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SKY NEWS:
Rail strikes: Agency workers could be called in to replace striking workers, report says
It comes as the Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers' union prepares to strike on 21, 23, and 25 June in a dispute over pay and redundancies.

Don't fall for this kind of nonsense. It is designed as "read meat" bait for the hard of thinking to swallow and then regurgitate on command ( and they will/are already)

BTW - is this the same Grant Shapps who heavily criticised P&O ferries for this kind of thing and promised new legislation to protect mariners from being sacked and replaced by under skilled agency workers?

What's that smell? Yep, that's the smell of hypocrisy.
 

mike57

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I can actually see the Government turning this dispute into an apparent win for themselves, long drawn out dispute, which cripples the unions and the TOCs. Government then steps in, once the protaginists have beaten each to pulp metaphorically speaking, GBR takes over remaining failing TOCs and imposes a settlement on a workforce which no longer has the resources to continue the fight. Government then claims to have sorted out the railways.

Given the current climate I cant see the Government allowing a pay increase on the railways that is higher than awarded to other public sector workers.
 

Goldfish62

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Personally while I support the aims of the strike. I believe the Tory government has baited the railway unions into this positions and I am suspicious as to why
Yes! I completely agree. The government wanted this dispute. It instructed TOCs and NR not to even mention pay to the unions and sat back while the ballot took place, knowing full well the likely result.

The government wanted this confrontation. Staff and passengers (plus FOCs, freight customers and open access operators) are collateral damage.

I doubt if it's also escaped the government's attention that while the RMT does have a lot of disputes success it isn't universal. For example, it comprehensively lost the LU ticket office closures and Southern guards disputes, only got a partial success on SWR and is busy going absolutely nowhere with the LU Night Tube dispute.
 

yorksrob

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I can actually see the Government turning this dispute into an apparent win for themselves, long drawn out dispute, which cripples the unions and the TOCs. Government then steps in, once the protaginists have beaten each to pulp metaphorically speaking, GBR takes over remaining failing TOCs and imposes a settlement on a workforce which no longer has the resources to continue the fight. Government then claims to have sorted out the railways.

It won't wash with passengers though, if they have to put up with prolonged disruption.

They won't neatly blame the unions and absolve the Government of all responsibility. More likely it will be "a plague on both your houses".
 

chris11256

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I think at the minimum we'll see some kind of minimum service requirement introduced in the medium term, it was in the conservatives 2019 election manefesto.
 

theking

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MP'S got a £2,212 pay rise this year.

£84,144 per annum they're on now.

Various expenses claims, 2nd home allowances, jobs for the family in their constituency offices.

Where's the outrage regarding the above.

The government want a race to the bottom pitting everyone against everyone.

Yet make the unions and workers look bad for asking for a reasonable pay rise when inflation is 11%.
 

High Dyke

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Here's some key parts of the article
Thanks. It just reiterates my opinion of not reading a daily paper. However, a few weeks ago the wife forwarded me a media article relating to anti-social behaviour on the railways, and in particular where differing football fans are involved. That article was rather more thought provoking and realistic of what rail staff endure. It's just a shame the majority of the population don't see articles like that.
 
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I don't know enough to really understand the rights and wrongs of specific grievances.

All I know is that if the rail staff go for a proper balls to the wall strike they will (as a collective) lose long term. The public are not with them. The government are not with them. The opposition are not with them. I do not begrudge their pay but it is generally higher than similarly skilled jobs. There is huge untapped supply of replacement staff which could be taken up. There are archaic practices on the railway and if starting from scratch other ways of working could be introduced (even if less safe - there is a lot of safety to "play with" - we don't have to be as safe as we currently are).

It's so sad to see turkeys voting for Christmas like this. Especially when they appear to be led by Bernard Mathews.
I think this post is really revealing of how little people understand railway work.

I will provide some context. People often say to me that air traffic control is a really difficult job. For the record I've never been an air traffic controller, but some observations are worth noting. So planes compete for a runway slot and pathways exactly like trains do with platforms and routes. Here's what air traffic control doesn't do though, which the signaller does. Air traffic control doesn't have members of the general public crossing in front of trains constantly throughout the day with cars and tractors. Air traffic control doesn't have to worry about failures or obstructions on the track - planes fly around them. Air traffic control as a rule doesn't have to schedule maintenance on the plane while the plane is flying - the signaller is constantly taking line blockages between trains to maintain the track, surrounding vegetation, electrical supply, manage poor weather conditions etc etc. I think to suggest railway workers are overpaid when it is definitely more dangerous and unpredictable than air travel yet at the same time is statistically the safest form of transport in this country would suggest railways workers are actually underpaid when you consider the huge volume of risk they manage every day. There were some pilots that recently trained as signallers when the pandemic shut down air travel - they said the amount of rules and knowledge they needed for signalling was enormous compared to being pilots.

You say the public are not with us, but all it would take is one accident with these agency workers and their would be public inquiries galore.
 

Watershed

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MP'S got a £2,212 pay rise this year.

£84,144 per annum they're on now.

Various expenses claims, 2nd home allowances, jobs for the family in their constituency offices.

Where's the outrage regarding the above.

The government want a race to the bottom pitting everyone against everyone.

Yet make the unions and workers look bad for asking for a reasonable pay rise when inflation is 11%.
That's a 2.7% rise. I don't imagine the unions will accept anything that low.
 

ar10642

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MP'S got a £2,212 pay rise this year.

£84,144 per annum they're on now.

Various expenses claims, 2nd home allowances, jobs for the family in their constituency offices.

Where's the outrage regarding the above.

The government want a race to the bottom pitting everyone against everyone.

Yet make the unions and workers look bad for asking for a reasonable pay rise when inflation is 11%.
I don't see what MPs' pay has to do with this at all. It just underlines how politically driven this all is.
 

wobman

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That's a 2.7% rise. I don't imagine the unions will accept anything that low.

We should be debating the job loses at network rail, maintenance staff seem an easy target.
The management talk about multi tasking and things like that, does that mean the senior managers can cover for the maintainance staff then ?

Everyone goes on about pay but this dispute is far more complicated than people realise, it's a multi facetted dispute.
 

Jan Mayen

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That's a 2.7% rise. I don't imagine the unions will accept anything that low.
Would it be better to ask for an across the board increase of £X,XXX rather than a percentage increase?
If I earn say £20,000 and get a 10% rise, that's an extra £2,000. If the chap next door, same circumstances, but earns £80,000 their pay rise is £8,000. If our cost of living has gone up by £2,000 a year, I've stood still, but they have an extra £6,000 to spend. ( I accept that the chances of two people on wages that different are unlikely to have the same costs, but I hope hope you see my point)
 

baz962

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Precisely, *if* the Government wanted to go down that road, they would pass an act making railway workers essentially equivalent to Police Officers, who can only strike on very very specific conditions. Through parliament, it is a scarily simple move for them to make.
And could probably be beaten by the union in court.
 

Kite159

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.
MP'S got a £2,212 pay rise this year.

£84,144 per annum they're on now.

Various expenses claims, 2nd home allowances, jobs for the family in their constituency offices.

Where's the outrage regarding the above.

The government want a race to the bottom pitting everyone against everyone.

Yet make the unions and workers look bad for asking for a reasonable pay rise when inflation is 11%.

A pay rise recommended by an independent committee.

And being a MP can be a hard job dealing with enquiries/issues raised from their constituency (although some MPs are better than others, across all parties).

2nd home allowances should be more limited to those MPs who live within say 50 miles of parliament , better than paying out for endless hotels for when the MP for Lancaster (etc) has to stay in London for an evening session in parliament.

In my mind MPs are underpaid, pay them more money and you might get better candidates, rather than waste of space career MPs who only get elected due to that area always voting for that particular party. Just with more rules that when they are a sitting MP they can't have another job. Also more limits of what can be claimed for on expenses, and get rid of the 'cheap' bars.
 
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Don't fall for this kind of nonsense. It is designed as "read meat" bait for the hard of thinking to swallow and then regurgitate on command ( and they will/are already)

BTW - is this the same Grant Shapps who heavily criticised P&O ferries for this kind of thing and promised new legislation to protect mariners from being sacked and replaced by under skilled agency workers?

What's that smell? Yep, that's the smell of hypocrisy.


Indeed. The government are such hypocrites when it comes to pay as others have pointed out with payrises for MPs and their mates cashing in on contracts from Covid. Here's what Mr Shapps was saying in September 2021 (with regards to lorry drivers):

We are acting now, but the industries must also play their part with working conditions continuing to improve and the deserved salary increases continuing to be maintained in order for companies to retain new drivers.

Boris Johnson demands pay rise for lorry drivers


Now, remember that every freight train on the railway is equivalent to 76 HGVs on the roads ...
 

baz962

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I know this dispute isn't about train drivers, but railway staff in general, and pay isn't the only issue on the docket. I just wanted to point out however for context as @Egg Centric says, pay on the railways is generally higher than other industries.

Consider. A Ryanair pilot can expect a salary on average of £39,730. A train driver can expect a salary on average of £48,500. (Data: Reed/Glassdoor)

I don't want to engage in an argument that train drivers have more passengers than airline pilots etc etc, but that there is a discrepancy and a half.
Don't listen to Glassdoor. £39000 for a Ryanair pilot. I worked at Luton airport just before coming to the railway. My very good close friend and colleagues two nephews both qualified as pilots.
One started with Ryanair and six months later was earning well over that

The government could just change the law. Again they have an 80 seat majority and can get anything through they want realistically.
And be beaten in the court.
 

Watershed

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Would it be better to ask for an across the board increase of £X,XXX rather than a percentage increase?
If I earn say £20,000 and get a 10% rise, that's an extra £2,000. If the chap next door, same circumstances, but earns £80,000 their pay rise is £8,000. If our cost of living has gone up by £2,000 a year, I've stood still, but they have an extra £6,000 to spend. ( I accept that the chances of two people on wages that different are unlikely to have the same costs, but I hope hope you see my point)
I think that would be quite a sensible idea, although it would obviously not be popular with the higher earners. Possibly also quite a good way for the government to cause infighting within the unions!

And could probably be beaten by the union in court.
Not sure where you get that idea from? The courts are increasingly deferential to the government, for fear of having their wings clipped. If Parliament makes it the law that rail workers can't strike, that's what the law is. They could even exclude the possibility of judicial review etc. if they were concerned about a legal challenge.

That said, I don't think the government is heading down that road at the moment. Instead I foresee a repeat of the Flexible Rostering dispute (which was ultimately resolved following a leak that BR had printed millions of redundancy notices).
 
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