Railcard App failed to update after renewal

[Mamfy]

I was stopped at Marylebone on 26th March for the inspector to check my railcard. My 16-17 Saver had been renewed on 27 Aug 22 but had failed to update in the App. I have proof of purchase. t.i.l. are trying to do me for travelling without a valid railcard from August 22 to March 23 and have been through my Trainline account to find all of my journeys. They have demanded £516.30 in unpaid fares + £100 fine. I think that this is so unfair?
The other thing is I turned 18 on 27 Feb 23, so the journey from Marylebone to Bicester, when I was stopped, was a mistake by me, forgetting that the Railcard would expire when I turned 18. So really, I should only be charged for that journey + the fine? I did offer to pay for the few journeys that I made last August before I realised that my Railcard had expired, which they rejected.

Timeline:
22 July 22; 16-17 Railcard expired
1 Aug - 19 Aug 22; four local journeys made (for which I agree to pay)
27 Aug 22; renewed 16-17 Railcard before boarding train to Edinburgh (I checked before boarding!). The renewal would not show in the App & stupidly, I forgot to sort it out.
27 Feb 23; turned 18, making 16-17 Railcard no longer valid (but the App still showing it expired in July 22)
26 Mar 23; got pulled up by a ticket inspector at Marylebone

Please help, they have now said an application for the issue of a summons may now be made. This is my first offence.

Thank you in advance

 

[Brissle Girl]

When you say proof of purchase, do you have both an email confirming purchase, and a bank statement or similar showing the payment going out on the same day?

 

[Mamfy]

I have the confirmation email from railcard showing the purchase

 

[Brissle Girl]

Ok, but you can’t support that with evidence that the money was taken from an account of yours?

 

[Mamfy]

Yes. I have it on my mum’s credits card statement

 

[Danberto]

I'll leave the issue of the renewed railcard to others but from reading your message it would appear that in the periods 23/07/2022 to 26/08/2022 and post 26/02/2023 you were not covered with a valid railcard.

Therefore any rail journeys that you made in those periods would not be entitled to a railcard discount. TIL will have applied the 'anytime' single fare to any journey and not taken into account any payments you made nor the time of the journey (even if the journey was in an off-peak time, the anytime fare would be applied).

On top of any fares considered to be evaded will be an admin fee. This is not a 'fine', it will reflect the work carried out by TIL in dealing with this issue. The sum of £100 falls within what is normally charged by Train Operating Companies when they offer an out of court settlement so in the context of your case it does not appear 'excessive'.

Whether or not you choose to accept the out of court settlement or proceed to a court case is of course up to you. Should you plead guilty or be found guilty at a court you will probably be facing a larger financial package than the current evaded fares + admin costs one.

 

[MrJeeves]

In reality, it's up to Chiltern (or TIL) to prove you didn't have a Railcard but that's only if it gets to court. Only this one case is needed for a successful prosecution is court.

I would suggest writing back with the proof of your Railcard purchase which would cover up until the day before your 18th, and politely requesting that they reconsider the cost of their settlement offer to only include the journeys on or after that date.

This does run the risk of them withdrawing the offer altogether, though.

You may wish to post a draft here prior to responding, and I'm sure Hadders will come along with some advice for your letter, too.

 

[Hadders]

It would be helpful if you could upload the letter you have received from TIL (with any personal details and case reference numbers redacted). Is this the first letter you have received about it or did they send you an initial letter which you have already replied to?

If you have confirmation that you held a railcard between 27 August 2022 and 27 February 2023 then you should say that in your reply, and enclose a copy of the confirmation email. That should be sufficient to show your entitlement to the railcard discount.

You should write a short, concise reply acknowledging that you did not have a valid railcard between 22 July 2022 2022 and 26 August 2022 and after 27 February. Ask them to reconsider the outstanding fares they say are due in the light of the fact that you did hold a railcard.

If you post up a draft of your reply forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As an aside, I would have thought the 16-17 Saver would be like other Railcards, in that you get a "download code" that you have to enter into the Railcard app for it to show up.

Probably worth checking those emails to see if one has such a code in it. If there's no sign of one, or it doesn't work, give the Helpdesk a call on 03453011656 (lines are open 0700 to 2200 daily, and calls cost the same as those to geographic (01 and 02) numbers), or email them: [email protected].

 

[jamiearmley]

I was stopped at Marylebone on 26th March for the inspector to check my railcard. My 16-17 Saver had been renewed on 27 Aug 22 but had failed to update in the App. I have proof of purchase. t.i.l. are trying to do me for travelling without a valid railcard from August 22 to March 23 and have been through my Trainline account to find all of my journeys. They have demanded £516.30 in unpaid fares + £100 fine. I think that this is so unfair?
The other thing is I turned 18 on 27 Feb 23, so the journey from Marylebone to Bicester, when I was stopped, was a mistake by me, forgetting that the Railcard would expire when I turned 18. So really, I should only be charged for that journey + the fine? I did offer to pay for the few journeys that I made last August before I realised that my Railcard had expired, which they rejected.

Timeline:
22 July 22; 16-17 Railcard expired
1 Aug - 19 Aug 22; four local journeys made (for which I agree to pay)
27 Aug 22; renewed 16-17 Railcard before boarding train to Edinburgh (I checked before boarding!). The renewal would not show in the App & stupidly, I forgot to sort it out.
27 Feb 23; turned 18, making 16-17 Railcard no longer valid (but the App still showing it expired in July 22)
26 Mar 23; got pulled up by a ticket inspector at Marylebone

Please help, they have now said an application for the issue of a summons may now be made. This is my first offence.

Thank you in advance

It doesn't update automatically in the railcard app, you have to do it manually.

Log into railcard.co.uk and it will show your current and expired railcards together with their valid from and to dates.

This should provide the proof that you require.

Good luck !

 

[Mamfy]

Hi,

Thank you so much for all of your replies. I've just gone through all of the correspondence and have realised that they have accepted my railcard was valid, but not for the journey I took on the day I renewed it. I caught a train to Edinburgh on 27/8/22 and checked my Railcard before boarding, that's when I realised it had expired. I couldn't update it in the app, so I rang my mum and she did it online. They are charging me £385 for this one journey, and yes I do understand how they work the price out. How do I prove that I had a valid railcard for the Edinburgh journey. I can pay the rest of the charge, just not the extra £385.
Sorry, my head's a bit all over the place at the moment, mum's just been diagnosed with cancer.
I've attached all of my correspondence.

Thanks again

 

[MrJeeves]

Hi,

Thank you so much for all of your replies. I've just gone through all of the correspondence and have realised that they have accepted my railcard was valid, but not for the journey I took on the day I renewed it. I caught a train to Edinburgh on 27/8/22 and checked my Railcard before boarding, that's when I realised it had expired. I couldn't update it in the app, so I rang my mum and she did it online. They are charging me £385 for this one journey, and yes I do understand how they work the price out. How do I prove that I had a valid railcard for the Edinburgh journey. I can pay the rest of the charge, just not the extra £385.
Sorry, my head's a bit all over the place at the moment, mum's just been diagnosed with cancer.
I've attached all of my correspondence.

Thanks again

The Edinburgh train departed at 09:21.

What time did the email confirming the Railcard purchase arrive?

If the Railcard was renewed after departure, your ticket was not valid, even if the Railcard was renewed that day.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The Edinburgh train departed at 16:49.

What time did the email confirming the Railcard purchase arrive?

If the Railcard was renewed after departure, your ticket was not valid, even if the Railcard was renewed that day.

That seems to be another journey. If I read the analysis correctly, the Edinburgh journey commenced at 0921, so that is the key time by which the railcard needed to have been purchased. I notice on the card statement, the transaction was debited two days later, but that's often the case, so again, the OP needs to see the email receipt.

 

[alholmes]

In whose name was the railcard purchased? The confirmation email is addressed to Samantha, whereas the correspondence between the OP and TIL is in a different name.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

In whose name was the railcard purchased? The confirmation email is addressed to Samantha, whereas the correspondence between the OP and TIL is in a different name.

OP mentions earlier railcard was purchased on mothers credit card

 

[Gonzoiku]

The correspondence has been uploaded with full name and address legible - suggest to try again.

GZ

 

[alholmes]

OP mentions earlier railcard was purchased on mothers credit card

Understood, but the email confirming the railcard purchase may indicate that the railcard has also been purchased in the name of someone else (e.g. mother?) as it’s addressed to Samantha. A railcard in someone else’s name would not be valid, regardless of the time it’s purchased.

 

[fandroid]

Can it be batted back to TIL to prove that the Railcard wasn't renewed before 09.21?

Remember. That seems to be the only thing TIL have picked up from their fishing expedition, and it wasn't as if anyone queried it on the day, so a charge of "paying only when challenged" would be a bit thin.

 

[Hadders]

Can it be batted back to TIL to prove that the Railcard wasn't renewed before 09.21?

Remember. That seems to be the only thing TIL have picked up from their fishing expedition, and it wasn't as if anyone queried it on the day, so a charge of "pay when challenged" would be a bit thin.

You could, but there’s always the risk that the TIL will withdraw the settlement offer and prosecute in the Magistrates Court for the single offence where the OP was caught with an invalid ticket.

 

[Danberto]

Can it be batted back to TIL to prove that the Railcard wasn't renewed before 09.21?

I would expect that a timed electronic transaction exists for the renewal of the railcard so the issue of whether the Edinburgh journey commenced before or after the railcard discount became valid will be settled that way.

Given that the communication from TIL offering an out of court settlement be paid within 21 days was dated in July and it is now September wouldn't that option have now elapsed and TIL are progressing this matter to court?

There may have been further communications with TIL that would render the last paragraph incorrect but the OP states that the posting 11/09/2023 contains "all" of the correspondence.

The question of the Edinburgh journey may well be resolved in court should TIL choose to prosecute all offences.

 

[fandroid]

I wonder what charge Chiltern might go for? The OP was stopped at Marylebone, apparently at the start of a journey to Bicester, presumably holding a ticket that was discounted as if the Railcard were still valid. So it looks as if they hadn't boarded the train at that point.

Some clarity over those events might be useful. FWIW I think TIL demanded an outrageous amount for what was a fairly minor technical breach of the rules on that Edinburgh journey. If the OP were to be properly represented in court, I cannot see the magistrates accepting TIL adding that large sum of money to the compensation amount due

 

[island]

Can it be batted back to TIL to prove that the Railcard wasn't renewed before 09.21?

The Railcard needed to be shown at the time the ticket was requested, and wasn’t. TIL doesn’t need to prove anything related to the renewal. In any event, a prosecution for that journey is out of time, so nothing turns on it.

As I regularly point out on this forum, settlements aren’t negotiable and it’s likely the next thing the OP will receive is a single justice procedure notice.

If the OP were to be properly represented in court, I cannot see the magistrates accepting TIL adding that large sum of money to the compensation amount due

I think this is probably correct. The likely fine and surcharge (£616 for an average earner) will however make up for it.

I wonder what charge Chiltern might go for? The OP was stopped at Marylebone, apparently at the start of a journey to Bicester, presumably holding a ticket that was discounted as if the Railcard were still valid. So it looks as if they hadn't boarded the train at that point.

The offence charged would be attempting to travel on a train without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof, contrary to section 5 (3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, and the extensive history of travel will be tendered as evidence of intent. Whether the court will accept that, I cannot say.

 

[MrJeeves]

The Railcard needed to be shown at the time the ticket was requested, and wasn’t.

Or after the fact, once per year. Hence why the time the railcard was bought is important.

 

[island]

Or after the fact, once per year. Hence why the time the railcard was bought is important.

Not really. The concession you are thinking of provides for a passenger to apply for a refund of a new ticket or Penalty Fare if one was charged when they forgot their Railcard. It doesn’t apply when someone is reported for prosecution, though nothing stops the TOC from discontinuing a prosecution at their discretion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really. The concession you are thinking of provides for a passenger to apply for a refund of a new ticket or Penalty Fare if one was charged when they forgot their Railcard. It doesn’t apply when someone is reported for prosecution, though nothing stops the TOC from discontinuing a prosecution at their discretion.

Generally the approach seems to be that if sent a "please explain" letter with regard to a missing Railcard the person is asked to send proof of its existence at that point.

 

[island]

Generally the approach seems to be that if sent a "please explain" letter with regard to a missing Railcard the person is asked to send proof of its existence at that point.

I will take your word for it.

However, as I have said already, the journey for which the time of day the Railcard was renewed is out of time to be prosecuted, so it does not seem to me that anything turns on this.

Where we have got to is that the OP is, or is about to be, charged with a ticketing offence from March, because they attempted to negotiate a settlement amount and their lower offer was refused. The OP having turned 18 by then would not have been able to use a 16-17 Saver discount for the March journey regardless of whether or not they held it.

It is not clear whether the original settlement amount is even on the table any more. If it is, the OP would be well advised to grit their teeth and cough up.

 

[MotCO]

The Railcard needed to be shown at the time the ticket was requested, and wasn’t. TIL doesn’t need to prove anything related to the renewal. In any event, a prosecution for that journey is out of time, so nothing turns on it.

Are you referring to the Edinburgh trip (which forms the majority of the penalty sum)? If so, the OP was not challenged for that journey at the time, therefore the Railcard did not need to be shown. It was only after TIL reviewed other trips that the Edinburgh trip came to light.