Railcard boundaries in silly places

[DJ_K666]

So here's one for you.

If I want a Network Railcard, the boundary is one stop down the line (at Long Buckby) so if I want to go down south by train, I've got to buy a ticket to there (or Milton Keynes if I want to use the fastest train) and then a railcard ticket onwards.

This is a bit of a faff, shouldn't the boundary be at the next main station, rather then out in the sticks? Is this delivered or would there be a worthwhile argument in moving the boundary to Rugby?

 

[The exile]

Whenever you have borders there will always be borderline cases (the clue’s in the name). If you move it to Rugby , then it will be the residents of Coventry or Nuneaton who will start to feel hard done by. You’re only going to solve it by either introducing a national railcard or abolishing area ones completely.

 

[bakerstreet]

So here's one for you.

If I want a Network Railcard, the boundary is one stop down the line (at Long Buckby) so if I want to go down south by train, I've got to buy a ticket to there (or Milton Keynes if I want to use the fastest train) and then a railcard ticket onwards.

This is a bit of a faff, shouldn't the boundary be at the next main station, rather then out in the sticks? Is this delivered or would there be a worthwhile argument in moving the boundary to Rugby?

From memory the border used to be further south (at Northampton).

Happy to be corrected.

 

[Watershed]

The boundary is quite intentionally set south of Rugby; the Network Railcard was created by Network SouthEast back in BR days, and their 'patch' only went as far north as Northampton. The InterCity sector evidently did not want to offer the same discount, although they were effectively forced to accept Network Railcard discounted tickets from Milton Keynes as brand-based restrictions weren't a thing until the dawn of privatisation.

It is much the same story nowadays with Long Buckby to London being WMT territory whilst Rugby to London is predominantly served by Avanti, who I imagine only reluctantly accept the Network Railcard from Milton Keynes. Like LNER, they are already opted out of the Gold Card (another NSE creation).

Not sure how Long Buckby came to be included in the Network Area, but perhaps it was a small 'freebie' in recognition of the fact that their London fares were the same as Northampton's.

The Network Area boundary is situated similarly on other lines, just short of a more major town/city predominantly served by InterCity services, with Bedwyn vs Westbury, Huntingdon vs Peterborough, and Manningtree vs Ipswich. At the end of the day, no matter where you put the boundary, there will always be a station that is just on the wrong side of it.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The boundary is quite intentionally set south of Rugby; the Network Railcard was created by Network SouthEast back in BR days, and their 'patch' only went as far north as Northampton. The InterCity sector evidently did not want to offer the same discount, although they were effectively forced to accept Network Railcard discounted tickets from Milton Keynes as brand-based restrictions weren't a thing until the dawn of privatisation.

It is much the same story nowadays with Long Buckby to London being WMT territory whilst Rugby to London is predominantly served by Avanti, who I imagine only reluctantly accept the Network Railcard from Milton Keynes. Like LNER, they are already opted out of the Gold Card (another NSE creation).

Not sure how Long Buckby came to be included in the Network Area, but perhaps it was a small 'freebie' in recognition of the fact that their London fares were the same as Northampton's.

The Network Area boundary is situated similarly on other lines, just short of a more major town/city predominantly served by InterCity services, with Bedwyn vs Westbury, Huntingdon vs Peterborough, and Manningtree vs Ipswich. At the end of the day, no matter where you put the boundary, there will always be a station that is just on the wrong side of it.

So did NSE not reach Birmingham until the 317s arrived in 1988 then?

 

[Watershed]

So did NSE not reach Birmingham until the 317s arrived in 1988 then?

Not aware of 317s serving Birmingham. Thought it was only ever 321s?

Either way they were deemed Regional Railways services north of Northampton, even if operated as through services from London - similar to the former joint ScotRail/Northern Glasgow to Newcastle via Dumfries services.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Whenever you have borders there will always be borderline cases (the clue’s in the name).

Indeed. Similarly Manningtree is within the NSE Network Railcard zone, but Ipswich isn't. (Has it ever been?)

 

[DJ_K666]

In my view it makes it a bit of a nightmare buying two tickets, one to Milton Keynes (I could buy one to Buckby and another to Brighton) unless Trainline or Trainpal has an automatic thingy to add the railcard to the relevant part of the journey.

I can see Northampton being a good boundary for NSE though. Unfortunately there isn't really a railcard for me as I'm over 30 and under 60, and one annoying stop outside the network boundary.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Not aware of 317s serving Birmingham. Thought it was only ever 321s?

Either way they were deemed Regional Railways services north of Northampton, even if operated as through services from London - similar to the former joint ScotRail/Northern Glasgow to Newcastle via Dumfries services.

They did, seen YouTube videos of them arriving at New Street in the 80s

 

[The exile]

They did, seen YouTube videos of them arriving at New Street in the 80s

Indeed - but there’s a difference between NSE trains reaching Birmingham and NSE reaching Birmingham. After all, on Saturdays NSE trains reached Pwllheli (amongst other places).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed - but there’s a difference between NSE trains reaching Birmingham and NSE reaching Birmingham. After all, on Saturdays NSE trains reached Pwllheli (amongst other places).

And they also reached Weymouth and Exeter - and so does the Railcard validity!

 

[Silver Cobra]

Whenever you have borders there will always be borderline cases (the clue’s in the name).

Much like Peterborough on the ECML. Both the Network Railcard and Gold Card areas have their border at Huntingdon, making Peterborough the only station on the Thameslink/Great Northern network where neither railcard can be used. Arguably the Gold Card area could have been extended to Peterborough when they extended it to cover all of Norfolk and Suffolk, and the West Midlands as far as Stafford. Seeing as Gold Card discounted tickets aren't valid on LNER, much like they aren't on Avanti, that argument shouldn't apply as a reason for not doing the extension. I can only guess that one of either Greater Anglia, CrossCountry or EMR don't want these discounts to be available on their services towards Ely (though the Gold Card area does include between March and Ely on these operators).

 

[JonathanH]

After all, on Saturdays NSE trains reached Pwllheli (amongst other places).

Technically just rolling stock. They used to send NSE rolling stock to Penzance too on Summer Saturdays. Neither means it is where the Network Railcard should reach.

 

[The exile]

Technically just rolling stock. They used to send NSE rolling stock to Penzance too on Summer Saturdays. Neither means it is where the Network Railcard should reach.

Which is exactly the point I was making

And they also reached Weymouth and Exeter - and so does the Railcard validity!

Exeter (via Salisbury) and Weymouth (via Bournemouth) were NSE services though.

 

[MikeWM]

I can only guess that one of either Greater Anglia, CrossCountry or EMR don't want these discounts to be available on their services towards Ely (though the Gold Card area does include between March and Ely on these operators).

Ely -> Peterborough is already rather more expensive than tickets in all other directions from Ely, which perhaps is unsurprising for a route with high demand but a fairly limited service operated by relatively short trains. Gold Card (or Network Card where applicable) discounts make the discrepancy even more pronounced.

As a Gold Card holder though, it does seem a bit silly that it cheaper for me to go on a daytrip from Ely to Sheringham than from Ely to Peterborough, despite Sheringham being almost three times as far away.

 

[SargeNpton]

If I want a Network Railcard, the boundary is one stop down the line (at Long Buckby) so if I want to go down south by train, I've got to buy a ticket to there (or Milton Keynes if I want to use the fastest train) and then a railcard ticket onwards.

Network SouthEast was the sectorisation name give to what was previously the London & South East fares area - basically the area at the time in which is was considered reasonable to commute to/from London. One of the reasons, I think, for creating that fares area was that you could add-on London Underground journeys to specific stations for season tickets (before through ticketing between BR and LT became a thing for all tickets).

On the WCML the London & South East boundary went as far as Long Buckby, as that fairly minor station did have quite a few London commuters.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is a bit of a faff, shouldn't the boundary be at the next main station, rather then out in the sticks?

Why?

Is this delivered or would there be a worthwhile argument in moving the boundary to Rugby?

They won't move the boundary to Rugby, that's premium turf for Avanti, the intercity operator. Also why Peterborough is outside the area, as it's prime Intercity turf for LNER with fares to match.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

This is a bit of a faff, shouldn't the boundary be at the next main station, rather then out in the sticks?

As a resident of Long Buckby, I'm quite happy with the boundary where it is!

On the WCML the London & South East boundary went as far as Long Buckby, as that fairly minor station did have quite a few London commuters.

It still does but the extended car park is definitely now much too big as the number of commuters dropped post-pandemic.

 

[The exile]

It still does but the extended car park is definitely now much too big as the number of commuters dropped post-pandemic.

I’d re-word that to “bigger than it currently needs to be” before someone gets any more ideas

 

[D1537]

From memory the border used to be further south (at Northampton).

Happy to be corrected.

Definitely Long Buckby - it even had the NSE-coloured signage and posts!

Not aware of 317s serving Birmingham. Thought it was only ever 321s?

Either way they were deemed Regional Railways services north of Northampton, even if operated as through services from London - similar to the former joint ScotRail/Northern Glasgow to Newcastle via Dumfries services.

317s were the standard on Euston-Brum services starting from late 1987 (as the 319s displaced them from the BedPan line) and were themselves displaced by the 321s from late 1989 onwards.

 

[Sleepy]

Much like Peterborough on the ECML. Both the Network Railcard and Gold Card areas have their border at Huntingdon, making Peterborough the only station on the Thameslink/Great Northern network where neither railcard can be used. Arguably the Gold Card area could have been extended to Peterborough when they extended it to cover all of Norfolk and Suffolk, and the West Midlands as far as Stafford. Seeing as Gold Card discounted tickets aren't valid on LNER, much like they aren't on Avanti, that argument shouldn't apply as a reason for not doing the extension. I can only guess that one of either Greater Anglia, CrossCountry or EMR don't want these discounts to be available on their services towards Ely (though the Gold Card area does include between March and Ely on these operators).

I suspect Cross Country is the culprit for being awkward - eg. Anglia Plus rover & season tickets not bring valid on their services between Ely and Cambridge unlike the other TOC's in the area.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I suspect Cross Country is the culprit for being awkward - eg. Anglia Plus rover & season tickets not bring valid on their services between Ely and Cambridge unlike the other TOC's in the area.

If memory serves, that's something that CrossCountry inherited from Central Trains back in 2007 that they've never changed.

 

[Haywain]

I suspect Cross Country is the culprit for being awkward - eg. Anglia Plus rover & season tickets not bring valid on their services between Ely and Cambridge unlike the other TOC's in the area.

The Network Railcard dates from long before CrossCountry existed.

 

[wibble]

I find it a bit odd that Worcester is in the Network Railcard area!

 

[08221]

Not aware of 317s serving Birmingham. Thought it was only ever 321s?

317s were allocated to BY during the period after the 310s moved to the GE and before the 321s were built and allocatedto BY.

During that time, the 317s operated all the BY diagrams including the "Little London" service between Euston and New Street.

 

[yorksrob]

The solution is to abolish the Network Railcard boundary altogether and have a true Network wide railcard that every other sensible developed country seems to manage, but the Establishment here seem unable to countenance.

 

[infobleep]

The solution is to abolish the Network Railcard boundary altogether and have a true Network wide railcard that every other sensible developed country seems to manage, but the Establishment here seem unable to countenance.

One of my friends is bemoans the higher rail fares vers bus and I always explain successive governments want passengers to pay more. Bus fares don't take into account road repair costs as much as train fares do, is my understanding.

I guess the same argument applies to the rail card. If they make it national, they think it will bring in less revenue, or require more investment in services, which in turn will cost more than the status quo. I have no idea if that is the actual case.

 

[canary fan]

In my view it makes it a bit of a nightmare buying two tickets, one to Milton Keynes (I could buy one to Buckby and another to Brighton) unless Trainline or Trainpal has an automatic thingy to add the railcard to the relevant part of the journey.

I can see Northampton being a good boundary for NSE though. Unfortunately there isn't really a railcard for me as I'm over 30 and under 60, and one annoying stop outside the network boundary.

Why is it ‘a bit of a nightmare’ buying 2 tickets? Many people do this when using split fares for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is it ‘a bit of a nightmare’ buying 2 tickets? Many people do this when using split fares for example.

Most of the time it's not worth doing this, but if it is I believe Trainsplit/the Forum site indeed does handle it correctly.

 

[Haywain]

unless Trainline or Trainpal has an automatic thingy to add the railcard to the relevant part of the journey.

Trainsplit, which also powers the forum site, will happily apply the railcard to the appropriate part of the journey.