Railcard Incident

[CJB]

I got the train today and used the ticket machine to buy my ticket. I was running late and in a rush. I selected that I wanted a an off peak return to Glasgow and it automatically came up with a ticket that was less than £5 when it's usually over £7.. I restarted my selection and it automatically came up with the original cheap ticket. I didn't have time to think about it so I paid for the ticket and ran to the train.
Usually when you select a rail card ticket you have to go to the effort of actually selecting the railcard but it never came up. No where on the ticket does it say that it's a railcard one.

Caught my train on time luckily.. The conductor asked for my ticket, he asked for my rail card but I said I didn't have one it was the ticket the machine automatically gave me and I didn't have a rail card. He got quite irritated, said I needed to buy a new ticket. I asked if there was anyway he would allow me to pay the difference for a full fair ticket as it was an honest mistake. He refused. In the end I then paid for a new ticket at full fair.. I was peeved but fair enough. He then asked for the first ticket I had bought. I refused; I was getting the train back with a friend that evening who actually has a rail card and figured I would just give it to her and even then it was the principle.. I had paid for the ticket and he would refund it.

He then began to argue with me said he wanted the ticket, I said no.. He said give it to me, I said no because he had already written INVALID on the first half of the return. It seemed unfair for the ticket to go to waste. Plus I paid for it.. It was mine.

ANYWAY! What I want to know is..
Should I have been entitled to an exchange of some sort?
Did he have any grounds for actually wanting to reprimand the ticket?

Thanks
x

 

[MikeWh]

Should I have been entitled to an exchange of some sort?

Unfortunately not. The conditions of the railcard state that you are treated as having no ticket if you do not have a railcard.

Did he have any grounds for actually wanting to reprimand the ticket?

I'm not sure. The outward portion quite probably should be withdrawn. But you were not attempting to use the return portion so I would hope that he should allow you to keep that.

 

[CJB]

I guessed it pretty much depended on the conductors discretion as to if I would get an exchange but I couldn't understand why he wanted the ticket.
I didn't raise my voice and I am in no way intimidating to be honest by any means but he seemed determined to get the ticket off of me and he threw in that it was "fraudulent" for me to keep ahold of it.. I couldn't see how it was possible...

 

[MikeWh]

I'd be inclined to write to the company asking how it was fraudulent to keep a ticket that could be made valid by the acquisition of a railcard. I suppose there might be an issue if you yourself would not be able to get a railcard because technically tickets cannot be transfered to another person, but this is primrarily to prevent profiteering by reselling tickets. I don't think anyone would mind a ticket being given to a friend.

 

[BestWestern]

He may, possibly, have wished to withdraw the ticket for 'further investigation', although I can't really see what there would be to investigate in such a straighforward case. I'm not aware of any reason why a Guard should be required to confiscate a fully paid-for ticket after charging for a new one, it's not as if you could do anything else with it really. I've certainly never been told that but then it is a total minefield! Just for future reference though, the ticket would have been marked with a three-didgit code quite prominently on the left hand side, probably Y-P or SNR which denoted a railcard discount. Just so you know

 

[yorkie]

I selected that I wanted a an off peak return to Glasgow and it automatically came up with a ticket that was less than £5 when it's usually over £7.

In theory someone could have started a selection with a Railcard and not made a purchase and you came across the screen like that.

However to test the theory, I'd need to check out the machines of the same type you used at Glasgow Central. I think there are more than one type there.

. I restarted my selection and it automatically came up with the original cheap ticket. I didn't have time to think about it so I paid for the ticket and ran to the train.
Usually when you select a rail card ticket you have to go to the effort of actually selecting the railcard but it never came up. No where on the ticket does it say that it's a railcard one.

Interesting, this sounds highly unusual. If you kept any portion of the ticket, I would like to see it scanned in if possible.

Without seeing a scan of the ticket, many people here are likely to be sceptical that a ticket could be printed from a ticket vending machine (TVM) at a Railcard discounted price, without a Railcard discount written on it.

Caught my train on time luckily.. The conductor asked for my ticket, he asked for my rail card but I said I didn't have one it was the ticket the machine automatically gave me and I didn't have a rail card. He got quite irritated, said I needed to buy a new ticket. I asked if there was anyway he would allow me to pay the difference for a full fair ticket as it was an honest mistake.

Well, if did not state anywhere on the ticket that it was a railcard discounted ticket, I'd be surprised why the guard asked for a railcard.

So, this doesn't make sense to me!

However if it was railcard discounted, then an honest mistake results in a new ticket being issued* (as opposed to a suspected dishonest mistake which can result in an MG11 witness statement being taken and the prosecutions department considering whether to take it to court)

* admittedly not always; guards can show discretion in certain circumstances by charging an excess, however it is not to be expected.

He refused. In the end I then paid for a new ticket at full fair.. I was peeved but fair enough. He then asked for the first ticket I had bought. I refused;

Dodgy ground as they can withdraw tickets, however they must issue a receipt. As long as the guard agrees to issue a receipt then you must hand it over.

I was getting the train back with a friend that evening who actually has a rail card and figured I would just give it to her

Not allowed. You can buy a ticket for a friend, but you cannot transfer ownership after attempting to use it yourself.

and even then it was the principle.. I had paid for the ticket and he would refund it.

Not quite following what you mean by the refund bit?

Given the low value of the ticket, and the possibility of a more severe action being taken if they suspected dishonesty, I would probably not persue it.

He then began to argue with me said he wanted the ticket, I said no.. He said give it to me, I said no because he had already written INVALID on the first half of the return.

Are you saying he wrote invalid on the outward portion, returned it to you, and wanted to do the same with the return portion and would return that to you too? If so, you probably don't have a leg to stand on.

If you did keep any of the tickets (whether they do or don't have invalid written on) please scan them in and upload them as attachments (e.g. JPG image) please.

If it is priced at the Railcard price and does not state anywhere that it is railcard discounted I would be very surprised, but if so you may have a case!

It seemed unfair for the ticket to go to waste. Plus I paid for it.. It was mine.

Not legally it isn't.

ANYWAY! What I want to know is..
Should I have been entitled to an exchange of some sort?

Not by the rules, no.

Did he have any grounds for actually wanting to reprimand the ticket?

Do you mean write "invalid" on it and return it to you? If so, yes. Or he could withdraw it and issue you a receipt.

 

[Anvil1984]

Nope the whole ticket (both portions) are withdrawn, failure to do so can lead to further problems for yourself down the line if the conductor changes his mind and decides to report the offence rather than sell you the ticket which he is within his rights to do.

Also the tickets are non-transferrable so you aren't allowed to give the ticket to your friend later in the day (however rarely enforced). Also I would be surprised if the ticket stated nowhere on it that you need a railcard otherwise how would the conductor know that it was a discounted ticket

 

[MikeWh]

No where on the ticket does it say that it's a railcard one.

Actually it probably does, but not in a way that you would understand if you didn't know the codes. On the left hand side under where it says STD for class will be a 3-5 character code. I don't know them all, but NSE is a Network Card (in the south east of England), GCD is a Gold Card (I think), GS3/GS4 are for Groupsave, SEN is probably senior, etc etc.

I guess there could also be a problem if the railcard was a senior one and neither you or your friend are senior, but if the discount is the same most staff would not have a problem.

 

[Mintona]

Actually it probably does, but not in a way that you would understand if you didn't know the codes. On the left hand side under where it says STD for class will be a 3-5 character code. I don't know them all, but NSE is a Network Card (in the south east of England), GCD is a Gold Card (I think), GS3/GS4 are for Groupsave, SEN is probably senior, etc etc.

I guess there could also be a problem if the railcard was a senior one and neither you or your friend are senior, but if the discount is the same most staff would not have a problem.

Almost, but not quite

NDEAL - New Deal card
NSE - Network card
NGC - Network gold card
SNR - Senior railcard
RCD - Her Majesty's Forces railcard
Y-P - 16-25 railcard
GPS-3/4 - Groupsave
FAM - Family railcard
TADA - Travel agents discount authority (I rather liked seeing my first ticket with TADA written on it )

I would guess the OP's ticket would have one of the bold ones on, the others not being available in that area or off TVMs.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks Mintona. The only ones I usually see are FAM and the associated CHFAM of course. Which also makes that one unlikely if there was only one ticket as I don't think a TVM will issue FAM/CHFAM on their own.

 

[wintonian]

Also DSB - disabled railcard.

Anyone know why a HM Forces railcard is RCD and not HMF which would seem to be the obvious code?

 

[142094]

I'm off to Glasgow today so will check the machines and see what tickets they show.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....He then began to argue with me said he wanted the ticket, I said no.. He said give it to me, I said no because he had already written INVALID on the first half of the return. It seemed unfair for the ticket to go to waste. Plus I paid for it.. It was mine....

You pay for the journey (and other services where applicable), not the ticket, the ticket is never yours, it is a token to shown you have paid for your journey and belongs to the railway.

That said, I'm not sure the guard was right to mark it 'invalid'.

....ANYWAY! What I want to know is..
Should I have been entitled to an exchange of some sort?
Did he have any grounds for actually wanting to reprimand the ticket?

Thanks
x

You could apply for a refund on the railcard discounted ticket, minus an admin fee (£5 or £10 depending on the TOC).

The guard can withdraw the ticket, but must give you a receipt for it.

 

[stut]

A pedant writes: isn't the Network Gold Card "GOLDC"? Certainly always was for my tickets.

I would guess the forces railcard is such so as not to give an obvious identifier that someone is a serving member of the forces.

 

[island]

A pedant writes: isn't the Network Gold Card "GOLDC"? Certainly always was for my tickets.

The status code on the ticket is indeed GOLDC. The code you have to enter into Avantix (and presumably various other systems) to get the discount is NGC.

 

[philjo]

A pedant writes: isn't the Network Gold Card "GOLDC"? Certainly always was for my tickets.

Yes, the used tickets I have in my wallet that had gold Card discount applied say GOLDC

 

[blacknight]

Also DSB - disabled railcard.

Anyone know why a HM Forces railcard is RCD and not HMF which would seem to be the obvious code?

Comes from a time when IRA & other Republican terrorists had open season on members of HM Forces, RCD don,t directly identify you as member of armed forces to bird you pull in disco who could have been a hunny trap or other members of general public.
Given present world order with our forces deployed on active operations overseas cannot see it going to HMF any day soon.

 

[LexyBoy]

I got the train today and used the ticket machine to buy my ticket. I was running late and in a rush. I selected that I wanted a an off peak return to Glasgow and it automatically came up with a ticket that was less than £5 when it's usually over £7.. I restarted my selection and it automatically came up with the original cheap ticket. I didn't have time to think about it so I paid for the ticket and ran to the train.
Usually when you select a rail card ticket you have to go to the effort of actually selecting the railcard but it never came up. No where on the ticket does it say that it's a railcard one.

When you were selecting the ticket did you just go back a step and try again or press "Start Again" or something similar? If the latter I'd make a complaint to the TOC since it's very misleading to keep a Railcard selected in this instance. I wouldn't expect a refund though - as others have said it may be best not to mention the rest of the incident, though I doubt it would cause a problem (if you reasonably didn't realise it was discounted). You might get the machine's software updated or a note stuck to it though...

I too very much doubt that there's no mention of the Railcard on the ticket - if that were the case I'm sure the guard would not have asked for your Railcard. Even if they recognised the price as a Railcard discounted price, they would probably have commented on the lack of a Railcard specified (unless there is a secret Railcard I don't know about).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Comes from a time when IRA & other Republican terrorists had open season on members of HM Forces, RCD don,t directly identify you as member of armed forces to bird you pull in disco who could have been a hunny trap or other members of general public.
Given present world order with our forces deployed on active operations overseas cannot see it going to HMF any day soon.

I've seen plenty of tickets dating from the 1990s with HMF on them; when was the code changed?

 

[Mintona]

Yes, the used tickets I have in my wallet that had gold Card discount applied say GOLDC

Apologies, I knew it didn't look right, but it was late last night and I couldn't think of anything else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Comes from a time when IRA & other Republican terrorists had open season on members of HM Forces, RCD don,t directly identify you as member of armed forces to bird you pull in disco who could have been a hunny trap or other members of general public.
Given present world order with our forces deployed on active operations overseas cannot see it going to HMF any day soon.

Ironically, it still doesn't work as Her Majesty's Forces railcard tickets are the only ones that appear with RCD on them

 

[blacknight]

Ironically, it still doesn't work as Her Majesty's Forces railcard tickets are the only ones that appear with RCD on them

Worked quite well until some one linked HMF & RCD together cover blown, have to come up with another 3 letter code all hush hush need keep mum need to know & walls have ears old boy

 

[Deerfold]

Comes from a time when IRA & other Republican terrorists had open season on members of HM Forces, RCD don,t directly identify you as member of armed forces to bird you pull in disco who could have been a hunny trap or other members of general public.
Given present world order with our forces deployed on active operations overseas cannot see it going to HMF any day soon.

Presumably the cover is somewhat blown when it's next to a HMF railcard in their wallet!

 

[wintonian]

Presumably the cover is somewhat blown when it's next to a HMF railcard in their wallet!

I was thinking that as well.

 

[blacknight]

I was thinking that as well.

Sometimes have to stop & remember reason why, least we forget R.I.P then they dare to complain when SAS did unto them the same in Gib
http://www.thisislichfield.co.uk/news-Friends-family-remember-soldier-killed-platform/article-2259872-detail/article.html

 

[me123]

I take it you were using a Scotrail machine? If so, I vaguely recall them advising you that you need a valid railcard for your journey before processing the transaction. Although I've not used them for a while because most of them don't take cash anymore.

Without seeing the tickets, there isn't much we can do. A railcard discounted ticket has a code on it, as outlined above. You may not have noticed it if you've never had a railcard before (most people probably wouldn't). But obviously the TE/guard would have, having seen them every day of his or her working life. Here's a ticket here; note how it's got the "Y-P" on the left, which indicates that the ticket is only valid with a 16-25 railcard.

I'm not going to disbelieve you, but I think you may have overlooked the little code there; which would be an understandable mistake for someone who hasn't used a railcard before.

Having said all this, surely the much lower ticket price would have indicated that something was amiss?

 

[LexyBoy]

Having said all this, surely the much lower ticket price would have indicated that something was amiss?

The OP did say that they noticed the lower price and tried to select the ticket again, but was offered the same price a second time, and being in a rush, bought it.

 

[bb21]

I was thinking that as well.

So not only does it reveal the identity of the person using the RCD-marked ticket, it also tells the guard which force the individual comes from?

I can see IRA attempting to infiltrate the profession of railway employees.

 

[blacknight]

So not only does it reveal the identity of the person using the RCD-marked ticket, it also tells the guard which force the individual comes from?

I can see IRA attempting to infiltrate the profession of railway employees.

Don't think we have to worry too much about Mr Beard & Mr Ginger but given recent events with BA employee & at an airport in Germany. There are still some non celtic groups who wish to do harm to HMF given the chance.:roll:

 

[142094]

I was in GLasgow Central yesterday and all the ticket machines look the same on the concourse. As far as I can tell the steps are the same as any other machine, so going back to the start should clear anything that has already been input (such as the railcard). The only two things I can think of that happened are:

1) Pressed the 'go back to previous page' button and not 'start again'
2) Problem with that particular machine

Since I don't know which machine it was, it is hard to tell but none of the ones I tested yesterday did the same thing as the OP mentions.

 

[clagmonster]

The conductor asked for my ticket, he asked for my rail card but I said I didn't have one it was the ticket the machine automatically gave me and I didn't have a rail card. He got quite irritated, said I needed to buy a new ticket. I asked if there was anyway he would allow me to pay the difference for a full fair ticket as it was an honest mistake. He refused. In the end I then paid for a new ticket at full fair
...Should I have been entitled to an exchange of some sort?

The Conditions of Carriage state:
"14. Railcards
If you buy a ticket using a Railcard, you must have with you when you travel, the ticket,
that Railcard and any photocard that may be required. Additional conditions apply to the
use of Railcards. Details of those conditions are available from the Railcard seller."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
Therefore, as you purchased a railcard discounted ticket, even by accident, you must produce your railcard with your ticket. The ticket will state on the back that it is issued subject to the Conditions of Carriage and such a statement should be present on or near the machine.
I believe that all railcards have in their conditions of issue a statement to the effect that if you present a railcard discounted ticket without the railcard discount, a new full fare ticket must be purchased or a penalty fare paid. If you post an image of your ticket or the code under the class of travel on the left hannd side (ie under STD or 1ST), I'm sure we'll be able to confirm that.

Did he have any grounds for actually wanting to reprimand the ticket?

Again, the Conditions of Carriage say:
"20. Withdrawal of tickets
If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition that applies to the use of a
ticket, staff or agents of any Train Company may withdraw the ticket and you will be given
a receipt."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
So yes, the guard/TTI is able to confiscate the ticket. As not providing it is, I believe, a byelaw offence, I would suggest not taking this any further.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was in GLasgow Central yesterday and all the ticket machines look the same on the concourse. As far as I can tell the steps are the same as any other machine, so going back to the start should clear anything that has already been input (such as the railcard). The only two things I can think of that happened are:

1) Pressed the 'go back to previous page' button and not 'start again'
2) Problem with that particular machine

Since I don't know which machine it was, it is hard to tell but none of the ones I tested yesterday did the same thing as the OP mentions.

CJB states in his original post that he was buying a ticket to Glasgow, so would have been buying it from a station other than Central.