Raildar data accuracy

Robobonk

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17 October 2019 there were big delays (chaos) on trains between Manchester and London Euston.

I caught the 07:12 from Stoke-on-Trent and arrived in Euston over 80 minutes late due to the delays.

My delay repay was rejected as virgin say my train was only 8 minutes late. I took this up with the ombudsman and they say the same as raildar only shows an 8 minute delay.

I know that my train was over 80 minutes late but cannot prove it.

Has anyone else been affected by incorrect data in raildar? Was anyone else affected that morning by the delays?
 
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najaB

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Has anyone else been affected by incorrect data in raildar?
With respect, how sure are you that the data in Raildar is incorrect? I ask because it gets its data directly from the Network Rail data feeds so while it's possible that it's wrong, it is unlikely.

Could there perhaps have been an alternative timetable published between when you booked your ticket and when you travelled? Have a look at other trains around the same time - what delay do they show?
 

Dai Corner

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Welcome to the forum! We tend to be a pedantic, analytic lot so please don't take questions and responses as personal criticism. We're just trying to understand exactly what happened and the reasons for the delay repay being rejected.

I think it's the delay to your journey, as opposed to the delay to the train you're on, that counts.

Presumably you arrived at Stoke-on-Trent around 0700 in order to catch the 0712? What time did you arrive at Euston? Did you have an Advance ticket for the 0712 or a ticket which allowed you to travel on any train?
 
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jawr256

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Looks as though the OP boarded the 0706 in error?
Sounds plausible - the individual train records on Recent Train Times show that the 0706 departed Stoke on Trent at 0713 so could easily have been mistaken for the 0712 (which is recorded leaving at 0717).
 

30907

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Sounds plausible - the individual train records on Recent Train Times show that the 0706 departed Stoke on Trent at 0713 so could easily have been mistaken for the 0712 (which is recorded leaving at 0717).
@Robobonk: can you recall roughly how many passenger stops the train made?
 

Robobonk

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@Robobonk: can you recall roughly how many passenger stops the train made?
hi, the train made lots of unscheduled stops to collect passengers that had had their trains cancelled due to the problems. I travelled first class and I arrived in Euston around 10:10.
I suppose I could have boarded the 07:06 but, the rain door stated 07:12 and the guard announced that we were making unscheduled stops to help with the chaos. The train was stationary south of Birmingham for a good half hour.
either way, the data in raildar doesn’t represent the chaos that morning.
 

Realfish

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hi, the train made lots of unscheduled stops to collect passengers that had had their trains cancelled due to the problems. I travelled first class and I arrived in Euston around 10:10.
I suppose I could have boarded the 07:06 but, the rain door stated 07:12 and the guard announced that we were making unscheduled stops to help with the chaos. The train was stationary south of Birmingham for a good half hour.
either way, the data in raildar doesn’t represent the chaos that morning.
If it travelled via Birmingham and the Black Country it would have been the late running 07:06

I'm having a deja vu moment, reading this. Was there not a thread several months ago where it was shown Raildar and some-such systems were incorrectly recording performance? As I recall, a contributor pointed readers in the direction of a further industry information source, not available to the rest of us, which contained the correct information.
 

Robobonk

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If it travelled via Birmingham and the Black Country it would have been the late running 07:06

I'm having a deja vu moment, reading this. Was there not a thread several months ago where it was shown Raildar and some-such systems were incorrectly recording performance? As I recall, a contributor pointed readers in the direction of a further industry information source, not available to the rest of us, which contained the correct information.
There’s something wrong with the raildar data that morning. I’d expect to see far more delays and cancellations
 

najaB

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I'm having a deja vu moment, reading this. Was there not a thread several months ago where it was shown Raildar and some-such systems were incorrectly recording performance? As I recall, a contributor pointed readers in the direction of a further industry information source, not available to the rest of us, which contained the correct information.
I know there can be issues where a train goes off route - funny things can happen like trains appearing to go backwards in time, but I don't think this is the case here.
 

30907

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So the OP caught a train via Birmingham which he says was the 0712.
A train ran at 0712 and reached Euston at 10.04, 80 minutes later than he anticipated.
Is it possible that the 0712 did in fact divert via Birmingham, that announcements were made to that effect, but that somehow all the data shows it as the booked 0706?
Unlikely or impossible?

PS the only other link I can quickly find is this
https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...signal-failure-rush-hour-virgin-a9159366.html.
Ignoring the Extinction Rebellion bit, the gist is that the fault was found at 0330, cleared (at least partially) at 0700 and supposedly delays until 1000 (RailAdvent differs).
 
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Realfish

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To clarify, the late running 07:06 which departed, S-O-T, 07:13 on the day (Causton's post, #12) is 9R23 and is scheduled to run via Birmingham in any case. The OP expected to travel on 1R15, direct through the Trent Valley, which departed 5 mins late at 07:17.

I note that it is not unusual for 9R23 to arrive at Stoke on Trent late. I guess that the OP wouldn't be the first person to board the slower, Euston via Brum, service in error.

This does not of course explain the apparent Raildar discrepancy.
 

najaB

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Is it possible that the 0712 did in fact divert via Birmingham, that announcements were made to that effect, but that somehow all the data shows it as the booked 0706?
Unlikely or impossible?
Unlikely if it is shown as passing/calling at its booked timing points.
 

Robobonk

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Odd as well that the guard on the train announced that we were making diversions, waiting for other trains and apologised for being so late.
They did the usual announcement that we were eligible for a full refund via pay for delay. that’s over 80 minutes- I completed the claim whilst sitting bored on the train unable to get into Euston.
 

Haywain

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Important to note that Avanti will not be relying solely on one source of information, such as Raildar. They will also have the benefit of Control Logs, for example, which would be expected to contain details of delays and changes to calling patterns.
 

Robobonk

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Important to note that Avanti will not be relying solely on one source of information, such as Raildar. They will also have the benefit of Control Logs, for example, which would be expected to contain details of delays and changes to calling patterns.
Yeah, that’s what I thought. But in conversations with the ombudsman, they told me that they use raildar as their data source.
 

JBuchananGB

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The train was stationary south of Birmingham for a good half hour.
The data shown for 9R23 does not show it sitting still south of Birmingham for around 30 minutes. It does not show any of the possible trains doing such a thing. So there is something wrong with the data. Hard to know what the OP can do next as the Ombudsman seems to support the TOC, but as he was actually on the train, I think he should continue to push back on this.
 

najaB

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Important to note that Avanti will not be relying solely on one source of information, such as Raildar.
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
@Haywain was referring to Avanti (the TOC) rather than the Ombudsman. In addition to the publicly available data from Network Rail, they will also have their own internal logs which would contain details not in the NR open data.
But in conversations with the ombudsman, they told me that they use raildar as their data source.
Did they say that they use Raildar as their data source or that they use the same data source as Raildar? The latter seems much more likely, I would expect an Ombudsman to check more than one site just to rule out it being an error in processing.
It does not show any of the possible trains doing such a thing. So there is something wrong with the data.
Just to point out, data is plural - we need to consider that our second data source (the OP) might also be incorrect. Maybe it *felt* like half an hour, but was actually less.
 

Mathew S

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@Robobonk - a random thought, but do you have any form of tracking enabled on your phone? For example, the timeline feature in Google Maps, which might enable you to prove your arrival time into London, and also what route you travelled by?
 

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