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RailSail Irish Rail issued ticket - valid on Tube?
- Thread starter radamfi
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That day is today so yes it is running, but I fancy using Gatwick Express to Gatwick for novelty value as I usually travel with a Network Railcard meaning I can't normally use it.
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I didn't even get past the barrier at Euston Underground station. He told me to apply for a refund. I'd like to see the huge roars of laughter at Irish Rail customer services was I to invoice them for the £1.90 Oyster single. Presumably anyone arriving with any kind of handwritten ticket would encounter the same.
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Yes - best way to get a cash refund would be to send a letter to LUL quoting the oyster card number and enclosing a photocopy of the train ticket.
Requesting that staff are briefed on all tickets that may be coming through their ticket barriers. And, if you so wish, for a reasonable admin fee to cover your inconvenience and your fee's contacting them to gain said refund.
What would the point be in LUL refusing the ticket only to get a refund from the same organisation?
He told me to get an Oyster Card transaction print out so he couldn't have meant LUL as they would have that information anyay.
Going through Victoria was a waste of time anyway as GEx was an 8 coach 377 from platform 17!
He told me to get an Oyster Card transaction print out so he couldn't have meant LUL as they would have that information anyay.
Going through Victoria was a waste of time anyway as GEx was an 8 coach 377 from platform 17!
LU refuse the ticket and tell you to buy a new ticket.
LU Cust. Serv. check and find your original ticket was in fact valid.
LU refund the ticket they told you to buy.
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paul1609
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I was told by a TFL manager that their cross london agreement with ATOC only covers printed tickets with the + symbol. Any other tickets are invalid. I think this came in around 2004.
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Just out of general interest - could you upload a scan of the ticket for me redamfi
I believe it is valid too but my point was that the barrier man must have been asking me to request a refund from the train organisation because it was invalid for the Tube. It wouldn't make sense for him to ask me to get a refund from LUL as that would contradict himself. I believe he was suggesting that the train organisation was in the 'wrong' by selling the ticket.
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Pics of ticket:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-...JkZjgtMjA3OTNiZjhlYmJk&hl=en&authkey=CJSAz6sB
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-...FkZWEtMzVlYzMwMTY5Zjgx&hl=en&authkey=CMaR7boB
glynn80
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The relevant wording of that agreement is as follows:
THROUGH TICKETING (NON-TRAVELCARD) AGREEMENT 2000 said:
As far as I can tell there is nothing mentioning a requirement for the + symbol, neither within the extract above or the document as a whole.
I did also check the ATOC-LRT Agreement which brings together the Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement, Travelcard Agreement and Concessionary Travel Agreement and again no mention of the + symbol occurs.
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Thanks for that radamfi!
If that's the case then ATOC and Irish Rail RailSail tickets aren't equivalent!
I wonder what ones issued at the harbour look like?
With the current exchange rate it is slightly dearer from Irish Rail yet has (apparently) less validity!
I thought it was amusing that the guy in Dublin Connolly thought it was OK to merely cross out 'London' and write 'Brighton' and not throw it away and issue a new ticket! I warned him that grippers in GB can be quite strict but that didn't make any difference.
There are a few exceptions (no names mentioned!) who are brilliant, but let's just say I wouldn't trust many of them to determine if a ticket is valid or not. In fact, to nick a quote from Red Dwarf, "I wouldn't trust them to open a can of sardines that was already open".
Some TfL managers aren't exactly knowledgeable, I would give examples but I don't want to get my informants into trouble!
I know this ticket is shown to have a Maltese cross so not quite the scenario described above, but it demonstrates that barrier staff or managers who make such claims are wrong.Routeing Guide said:
When I am doing such journeys, I prepare myself for a 'discussion' where you need to be assertive. Where it is possible to avoid such discussions by avoiding barriers, I will do that, as I'd rather not argue with them.
It's not totally their fault; the training is pretty poor in this area. In fact, that's an understatement: it's almost non-existent!
Anyway I'd encourage the OP to get a refund from LU, because they think they can just charge people willy nilly and get away with it. They receive a huge amount of money to carry passengers on these tickets, yet try to get out of carrying them at every opportunity. It'll cost them more to deal with the complaint/refund too.
Might also encourage LU to take it up with the cowboy rail operators issuing problematic tickets too.
One of the issues is that the agreement is between Transport Trading Limited (TfL) and the Tocs whereas bar the very small number of tickets used on DLR the main problems with such tickets occur on London Underground.
One of the issues is that the agreement is between Transport Trading Limited (TfL) and the Tocs whereas bar the very small number of tickets used on DLR the main problems with such tickets occur on London Underground.
Does Irish Rail count as a 'cowboy rail operator'?
It does seem fairer to ask for a refund from LUL rather than Irish Rail. Not sure how Irish Rail would entertain the refund even if they wanted to. Would they convert the £1.90 into euros and give me Irish Rail Vouchers, if such a thing exists? Doesn't sound very likely! A lot of fuss for £1.90 but I am inclined to put in the refund request to LUL just to see what happens.
It might be worth mentioning to those intending to buy RailSail tickets in Dublin that the ticket office at Dublin Connolly is only open 0630 to 1900. They seem to be going down the same route of cutting down of ticket office hours in favour of machines. RailSail is not available from the machines.
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Probably, but that's subjective!Does Irish Rail count as a 'cowboy rail operator'?
That said, you are much less likely to experience nasty or rude staff over there (either side of the border). In fact, it can take you aback how nice everyone is.
I did once encounter a guard telling someone off for doubling-back. The customer pointed out that there were no direct trains for several hours, and the guard just left it at that.
In NI in particular they are very friendly, in my experience.
There is no question the refund must be obtained from LUL. Unless I was in a rush I'd be politely but assertively refusing to pay and insisting on being allowed travel. Done it before with an obstructive barrier person, and his colleague said "he's right, let him through" after I showed the relevant documentation from the Routeing Guide. That was at King's Cross. At Paddington there was no argument as back then there was a barrier between certain platforms that you could easily get round.
The ticket was Grantham to Stroud which used to permit travel via London, sadly this no longer does. I had reservations via London and guards correctly accepted it on EC/FGW. I had anticipated someone at the barrier throwing a wobbler but I got us through
You can't be rude though, you have to be assertive.They are making several of the same mistakes that we are making, but I won't go into detail as it's not applicable to this topic.
The barrier man would not have been telling you to request a refund from Irish Rail. He would have been suggestion you request a refund from LU Customer Services. A man on the gateline does not have the ability to probe deeply the validity of a ticket. Customer services do. Therefore, if a staff member is doubtful of the vadility, I don't see a problem in asking the passenger to buy a new ticket, and once the original is found to be valid, issue a refund and an apology. It's inconvenient to the passenger and some may disagree with doing that, but im sure you'll agree that it's better than point blank rejecting the ticket.
I do disagree. Why should passengers be inconvenienced because someone checking tickets doesn't understand what they are looking at ? Actually, being charged again is rather more than an inconvenience - it is closer to being accused of trying to use a ticket unlawfully.
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I didn't say it is the ideal situation. Considering London Undergrounds training does not cover national rail tickets, as a member of gateline staff, I see it logical to advise the customer to purchase a new ticket, and when the original is found to be valid, a refund and apology issued.
It is not the ideal situation, and it is an inconvenience to the customer - however it is something that should be dealt with by LU as a company, with regards to training. As a member of staff on the gateline, who has no impact on training and whose suggestions are not listened too, I feel comfortable in rejecting a ticket and advising that the customer contacts the CSC to confirm the vadility and issue a refund.
3 facts:
1). Part of my job description is to "protect revenue on the gateline"
2). I do not personally feel I recieve adequate training on non-LUL issued tickets
3). There is no place we can go to check a vadility whilst on the gateline.
Considering those 3 things I believe I would have acted in the same manner. I do not feel it is the best for the customer. But with the situation you find yourself in when working on the barrier, this is how it has to be.
I understand completely what you are saying and my comment was not aimed at individuals. Certainly, if I was ever prevented from using a valid ticket in this way, I would take the matter up via my MP making exactly the points you make.
Apologies for taking it slightly personally.
It is an issue that annoys me; I know about NR ticketing more than most LU staff, but without adequate training on vadilities, I can't do my job properly. We don't have access t "The Manual", and IIRC the only tickets we are taught about somewhat more in-depth are "SDR"'s, "CDR"'s, (yes I know they don't exist!), and Boundary Zone Extentions.
I do, however, encourage people to complain to customer services whenever they find an issue with staff training. Feedback from staff is ignored. A complaint from a customer can't be shoved aside - everything is investigated! I have a complaint on my file from withdrawing an invalid pass. It was invalid, but the customer complained, it was still investigated and placed on my file.
Even during breakdowns in the service - if no-one bothers to call up the CSC, it gets written down as "no customer complaints"...
Having travelled on buses and trains extensively throughout much of western Europe I don't think British transport staff are any less knowledgeable on tickets than in other countries. But the main difference I find is that if a continental bus driver/train guard doesn't know the ticket, he just accepts it. Over here, if he doesn't know the ticket, the default reaction is to refuse it. If you then argue a bit and sound knowledgeable then they sometimes 'let you off', but I have found that to be less likely these days.
Great Ticket , reminds me of the tickets i get in Eastern Europe . I wonder if you can get them in the UK?
Having looked at the ticket, the solution is simple. All the issuer had to do was write "Route: +Irish Ferries" on it somewhere. It would then have the magical + symbol and would be valid. The barrier staff would not have thrown a wobbler and radamfi would not have been overcharged, and everyone would have lived happily ever after
They'd probably give you a 5 voucher because they don't print them on demand, they just get batches of them printed in fixed denominations and post them out, rounded up, where someone makes a claim.
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