Railway General Knowledge.

[Calthrop]

Wonderfully inventive; but alas, none of it (whether founded in fact, or elsewhere) right. The historical figure bit -- in the spirit of the doughty warrior De Laize: I suggest thinking geological victory ecclesiastical eminence.

 

[Graham H]

Hmm the clue blows out my next set of thoughts. Oliver the 042 in Thomas the Tank Engine, Oliver Cromwell as the figure and for some reason I recall services on the A1 called Cromwell somewhere near Newark but thats not a motorway and not really south, good question that gets the brain cells working.

 

[Calthrop]

Time for another hint, I think. Part of this whole: involves the 0-4-2T and its train, masquerading as a train for a highly specific purpose, on a line of South Africa's rail system.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Is this connected with the exploits of the then Mr Winston Churchill when he was captured by the Boers during the Anglo-Boer War in 1899ish?

If my memory serves me correctly, he was on an armoured train (hauled by an 0-4-2T locomotive?) which was ambushed and crashed. He was captured and was taken to somewhere which has the name of the service station - although I don't know what that is.

 

[Graham H]

I agree but cant think of the service station either. Just looked up the film and was surprised to see Longmoor Military Railway was also used in the filming which I thought was already closed down and largely gone by 1972

 

[Calthrop]

Is this connected with the exploits of the then Mr Winston Churchill when he was captured by the Boers during the Anglo-Boer War in 1899ish?

You're right -- and 1899 was indeed the year. I was referring in particular, to the film Young Winston, the majority of which deals with his capture by the Boers and subsequent escape. (My Post #8911 stuff about "geological, etc." was a laboured attempt to telegraph "win-stone-church-hill" )

If my memory serves me correctly, he was on an armoured train (hauled by an 0-4-2T locomotive?) which was ambushed and crashed. He was captured and was taken to somewhere which has the name of the service station - although I don't know what that is.

The armoured-train episode in the film takes place in a rural and hilly part of South Wales (around Coelbren Junction and Craig-y-Nos, on a then still extant remnant of the Neath & Brecon line), standing in for the South African veldt: the confected "armoured train" 's motive power is preserved ex-GW 0-4-2T 1466.

I agree but cant think of the service station either.

The service-station name: the original armoured-train-and-capture incident took place near the station named Chieveley -- in Kwa-Zulu-Natal, on the Durban -- Johannesburg main line. There's also a village in Berkshire, near Newbury, callled Chieveley (I gather that the S.A. Chieveley probably takes its name from the Berkshire one by devious ways, but it's not a certainty). The Berkshire Chieveley also gives its name to a nearby services area at intersection of M4 and A34.

Just looked up the film and was surprised to see Longmoor Military Railway was also used in the filming which I thought was already closed down and largely gone by 1972

Per my best understanding, the LMR sequence in the film is very brief -- involving the freight train on which Churchill stowed away, and rode on out of the Transvaal, into Portuguese territory. Freight train's motive power in film, struck me as a large, modern, and very un-1899-looking loco -- David Shepherd's Black Prince, or so I may have heard...? Film actually released in 1972; LMR had been disused since 1969 -- some track still un-lifted and usable, when the sequence was shot.

@EbbwJunction1 : you posted first by an hour-and-some; got it right about Churchill and armoured train, but didn't mention the film -- basically the crux of my question -- @Graham H, you were specific re the film's involvement. Could I possibly request you two gentlemen to come to an arrangement, as to which of you takes the floor?

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Over to you, Graham H.

 

[Graham H]

Prior to the channel tunnel there were multiple routes to Paris advertised by BR connecting mainly out of Victoria. I have a 1974/75 over winter timetable so there are fewer services but looks like all the established routes are covered. Can anyone give me the routes a foot passenger (1974 so we were not customers yet !) would be able to take.

 

[xotGD]

Via Dover, Folkstone and Newhaven?

 

[Graham H]

Via Dover, Folkstone and Newhaven?

Well thats 3 out of 4 departure points but what I was after was the route so where do you get to in France before continuing your rail journey to Paris and there are several options from some of the English ports not just a ferry. This is a genuine BR timetable London to Paris offering so I am not thinking of odd ball routes via Portsmouth. Southampton, Harwich etc.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I'm not sure whether this is written in the way you want it, but how about this:

UK departure points: one of Brighton, Eastbourne or Hastings
French arrival points: either Dieppe or Boulogne.

 

[Graham H]

OK, the question came about as I was having a Covid induced tidy up of what I call transport nostalgia but is known as that railway crap by the domestic boss. I came across one of those credit card sized mini timetables that were all the rage in the late 70’s and this one in contrast to todays basic London to Paris option of St Pancras via Eurostar gave our intrepid car less passenger 9 different time options on 5 routes to get from city to city using the services of BR and SNCF either side of the channel each day plus a few dated ones that I discounted.

I am sure more Sealink ferries ran as even in winter I recall both ports were quite busy (roll on, roll off vehicles presumably) and trips to Ashford station were never short of a boat train passing through but interestingly even though Dover/Calais and Folkestone/Boulogne are geographically opposite, these options don’t appear, presumably due to poor rail connections. Car was already king even in the 70’s. 3 modes of transport across the channel on offer which should help the brain cells.

Therefore Dover ferry to Boulogne and Calais not on offer and neither is Folkestone ferry to Boulogne so they can be discounted as options and I’ll give you Newhaven to Dieppe as a starter as both places got a mention in the replies so far.



1. Newhaven ferry to Dieppe

2.

3.

4.

5.

 

[444045]

Believe these were ruuning in 1974

Southampton to Le Harve

Plymouth to Roscoff

 

[Graham H]

Believe these were ruuning in 1974

Southampton to Le Harve

Plymouth to Roscoff
[/QUOTE
I suspect they were but the question was which 5 routes in pre Eurostar days were shown as timetabled options for foot passengers from London to Paris. I suspect London Plymouth Roscoff Paris would take a while...........the ports shown are in Kent and Sussex, 2 in each county.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I'm not sure that I totally understand what you're looking for, but here's a few more departure and arrival ports:

Departure: Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate
Arrival: Dunkirk, Ouistreham and Le Havre

Some are clutching at straws, but you never know!

 

[Graham H]

OK, proving difficult but all I was after were the BR advertised routes for our intrepid 1974 foot passenger. Plenty of other routes available between England and France but none provided a relatively seamless London to Paris trip. Having found the timetable I was just surprised at the variety of routes which presumably grew even bigger in the summer.
In the 1974 timetable our passenger had the following routes available by through ticket. From London to Paris crossing the channel via

1. Newhaven ferry to Dieppe
2. Folkestone ferry to Calais
3. Dover hovercraft to Boulogne.
4.
5.

I found it odd that Folkestone went to Calais and no ferry from Dover Marine to Calais or Boulogne was on offer, hovercraft service provided by normal train from Charing Cross and connecting bus to the harbour. all the others were Victoria departures

Number 4 also ran from Dover, any guesses at the port in France
Number 5 needs a bit of lateral thinking, 'port' is in West Sussex.

 

[Calthrop]

OK, proving difficult but all I was after were the BR advertised routes for our intrepid 1974 foot passenger. Plenty of other routes available between England and France but none provided a relatively seamless London to Paris trip. Having found the timetable I was just surprised at the variety of routes which presumably grew even bigger in the summer.
In the 1974 timetable our passenger had the following routes available by through ticket. From London to Paris crossing the channel via

1. Newhaven ferry to Dieppe
2. Folkestone ferry to Calais
3. Dover hovercraft to Boulogne.
4.
5.

I found it odd that Folkestone went to Calais and no ferry from Dover Marine to Calais or Boulogne was on offer, hovercraft service provided by normal train from Charing Cross and connecting bus to the harbour. all the others were Victoria departures

Number 4 also ran from Dover, any guesses at the port in France
Number 5 needs a bit of lateral thinking, 'port' is in West Sussex.

(My bolding) Late to the party; and a total guess (have no idea of the chronology) -- but: was the Night Ferry, Dover -- Dunkerque, still running in 1974?

 

[Graham H]

Correct that was still running and advertised in my little timetable though for foot passengers it must have been a long night.
1. Newhaven ferry to Dieppe
2. Folkestone ferry to Calais
3. Dover hovercraft to Boulogne.
4. Dover ferry to Dunkerque
5.

Final clue....although the Golden Arrow no longer ran, you might consider this last service as second place.

 

[xotGD]

Correct that was still running and advertised in my little timetable though for foot passengers it must have been a long night.
1. Newhaven ferry to Dieppe
2. Folkestone ferry to Calais
3. Dover hovercraft to Boulogne.
4. Dover ferry to Dunkerque
5.

Final clue....although the Golden Arrow no longer ran, you might consider this last service as second place.

Surely you couldn't catch a ferry from Silvertown?

 

[Graham H]

Anyone getting a boat from Silvertown was probably going a bit further than France !

 

[Calthrop]

(My bolding) Late to the party; and a total guess (have no idea of the chronology) -- but: was the Night Ferry, Dover -- Dunkerque, still running in 1974?

Correct that was still running and advertised in my little timetable though for foot passengers it must have been a long night.

I did it as a foot passenger in 1966. Reckon it -- as sometimes said of long journeys on the one-time Yugoslav narrow gauge -- "interesting; but something to have done, rather than something to do".

5.
Final clue....although the Golden Arrow no longer ran, you might consider this last service as second place.

Silver Arrow -- rail plus air: rail Victoria -- Gatwick, plane Gatwick -- Le Touquet, rail Le Touquet -- Paris Nord?

 

[Graham H]

Congratulations, thats the fifth offering and very interesting as arrival at Gatwick shows as just 20 mins before flight departs. You would be lucky to even get to a check in desk by then these days. Offered as a way round the direct Paris flights which seem to have been formed into a cartel if you read its history. I think check in was done at Victoria otherwise the short time at Gatwick would seem unachievable.

 

[Calthrop]

Interesting question and discussion thereof; but I find myself lost as to who -- if anybody -- did best, and thus inherits the floor. Can anyone enlighten on this point?

 

[Graham H]

Well you got the last two more difficult options so over to you............

 

[Calthrop]

OK, thanks. Quick and down-to-earth one: why are sausages colloquially called "bangers"?

I swear I'm going senile -- I was envisaging this as the just-plain General Knowledge quiz; not the Railway General Knowledge one. Am duly "killing off" my question. Cannot think of a railway-related question right now: open floor, please.

 

[341o2]

I can remember pricking sausages to stop them exploding

To a rail question, what in the US was nicknamed the Black Beetle and what record does it hold

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I can remember pricking sausages to stop them exploding

To a rail question, what in the US was nicknamed the Black Beetle and what record does it hold

I live in the USA and know a few enthusiasts so that is easy. It was a Jet powered ( seriously) rail car train. The 2nd part answer is - needless to say it still holds the rail speed record in the USA.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Don’t know what routes it ran though.

 

[Calthrop]

I can remember pricking sausages to stop them exploding

That's it -- their tendency to explode, especially if of inferior quality: I knew of that, and pricking them as a counter-measure; just never associated it with the word "banger", till reading of it the other day !

(I wotted not of the Black Beetle, till @GRALISTAIR's post.)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In America the sausages juices or fat from explosion is collected and mixed with cornflour and made into sausage gravy eaten with a scone like item that they call biscuits. I quite like them but my wife absolutely loves them especially the gravy made from the bangers!