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Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

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Annetts key

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There is a - not enormously unreasonable - argument, that you train drivers that knew that when they took the job.

But then, also the argument that’s when they took the job, enhancements were paid.
a) yes, when you start, you know that you will be doing some shift work, however read on…
b) you missed the bit where I said that I’m not a train driver,
c) the requirement to work unsocial hours (nights and weekends) has increased since I started, by a considerable amount, for employees that started since 2014, they can now be made to work 39 weeks of nights in a year, and 39 weekends in a year. Or if you want promotion, you are forced to accept these same conditions. That’s significantly different from before 2014.
d) in 1999 when we traded away higher enhancements for a better basic wage, we had no way of knowing what would happen in the future…

And now Network Rail’s modernisation programme wants to slash the routine infrastructure maintenance by an average of 50%. And in doing so, cut the number of infrastructure staff.
 
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jettofab

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There is a - not enormously unreasonable - argument, that you train drivers that knew that when they took the job.

But then, also the argument that’s when they took the job, enhancements were paid.

Certainly where I am there is a push for ever more antisocial hours, more nights, more productive diagrams, more sundays. So the argument starts to fall a little flat that we knew what we were signing up for. Plus, of course, there is the not enormously unreasonable argument that we know more and more about the impacts of shift work on physical and mental health and the TOCs/Network Rail ought to be working to incorporate that knowledge into their rostering rather than ignoring it.
 

Annetts key

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I’ve never voted conservative but feel that’s a largely baseless generalisation.
Politicians & political activists of all colours may or may not appreciate the work of rail staff, or indeed any other cause or profession, depending on knowledge & level of interest of the particular subject in question.
Yes, it’s a generalisation. To be fair, it’s based only on incidents that have occurred during the last twelve years. But then again, before this time period, no one had heard the term ‘orange army’ in relation to railway staff before. And I don’t remember politicians wanting to be photographed with infrastructure/engineering staff anywhere as often. Then during COVID19 we were suddenly ’key workers’… but apparently not anymore (or at least, not about 2000 of us)… unless of course we go on strike…
 

High Dyke

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So, how many of the forum members are up and about at 04:30 this morning? And how many are at work?

Working round the clock shifts including nights can seriously affect an individuals long term health, but the railway companies either don’t want to listen or don’t care. You decide.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier. Poor IT connection at work. I'm on nights this week, with colleagues from maintenance also working nights, on track maintenance.

The staff out on track, last night, are also the same people that undertake track inspections on various days. This suggests there's insufficient staffing levels to carry out the majority of inspections and or maintenance; certainly at that depot.

Management seem to pay lip service when it comes to fatigue. They attempt to introduce new rules about working hours, citing fatigue management as one reason for signaller recruitment. However, they also suggest increasing shift hours from a base rostered 35-hr week to a 40-hr week and introducing more night / weekend working.
 

ChrisC

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Actually only asmall percentage of nurses are bands 6 to 8. My wife had decades of experience but was band 5 doing paediatric oncology ( £26,000 - £ 30000) prior to COVID. Can you believe it.

Teachers, Social Workers & Police mostly £30, 000 -£35,000.
The limited public sector pay funding should go to levelling up pay between professions.

Why has train driver pay lept ahead of these other professions in the last 40 years.

I am anything but anti driver. It is an admirable career. I have traveled by train for 70 years including to school, work & leisure as far as S. Italy
My dad was a driver on the railways, retiring a few years early due to health issues in 1988. I have a certificate from the British Railways London Midland Railways Region Area Manager marking his retirement after 42 years service. I also have his ASLEF membership card. What I do know was that certainly during the 1950’s and 60’s his wages were appallingly low and my parents really struggled financially. Even during the 1970’s and up until he retired the pay was not good considering the responsibility he had as a driver.

I retired a few years ago after nearly 40 years as a primary school teacher. When I retired after 38 years service I was earning around £35,000. That was the top of the pay scale for a teacher without any extra management responsibilities. I could have earned more if I had wanted to by taking on responsibilities but I chose not to. I wanted to work the whole time in the classroom with the children and did not want to take on any management responsibilities that would have taken me out of the classroom.

Society was very different back in my dad’s days. Even with the responsibilities he had as a driver he saw himself very firmly as working class. He was also very proud of the fact that I trained and qualified as a teacher. I think he would be absolutely astounded at how much more money he would now be earning as a driver than I would be as a teacher.
 
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Smidster

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Actually only asmall percentage of nurses are bands 6 to 8. My wife had decades of experience but was band 5 doing paediatric oncology ( £26,000 - £ 30000) prior to COVID. Can you believe it.

Teachers, Social Workers & Police mostly £30, 000 -£35,000.
The limited public sector pay funding should go to levelling up pay between professions.

Why has train driver pay lept ahead of these other professions in the last 40 years.

I am anything but anti driver. It is an admirable career. I have traveled by train for 70 years including to school, work & leisure as far as S. Italy

Actually a majority (over 55%) of Nurses are at Band 6 and above from last NHS Digital Stats with average earnings of just under £36,000.

Personally I think the Unions would be daft to do anything before the PRB announcements over next few weeks - that is the event that might unlock funding depending on what the outcome of those processes is. Doing anything before then is just throwing away income with no real prospect of change.
 

Snow1964

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Or if you want promotion, you are forced to accept these same conditions. That’s significantly different from before 2014.

I doubt it, no one has ever been forced to be promoted.

Even today, (in all industries) it is of offered, not mandatory (and can be declined) because promotion changes your job spec, terms and conditions. Of course many accept the changes to terms and conditions because it comes with extra money.

It remains virtually impossible under employment law to impose new conditions that weren’t variable in your original employment contract. If it was happening regularly the constructive dismissal tribunal would have huge queue of cases.
 

142blue

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It'll sort itself out eventually, it always does. Just seems doom & gloom at the time.
Over 20 years and never known it like this. Having a new family has made me look at where my priorities lie and it's not in this managed decline, GBR, no pay rises, constant vacancies and no sign of it getting better.

Is anybody stopping you for putting your notice in and searching for an alternative job?
Actively looking and taking steps
 

Clarence Yard

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And you still haven’t got it. You have to look at the group accounts to get a true picture of what is going on, not just one years rail op profit. For example, what previous years provisions on the Group balance sheet are those profits being used to net off?

The op profit could be ten times that £45m figure (£45m is a fairly small % of nearly £4000m turnover, by the way) and you still wouldn’t get a decent pay rise because the NRC says that the DfT have to agree any change in staff conditions that puts more cost into the TOC.

And, at the moment, they are saying no. Until the DfT change their mind, everyone is stuffed.
 

dctraindriver

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Police and nurses have unsocial hours payments added on, whereas almost all train drivers do not - it's part of the salary.

When people compare what a train driver's salary was before privatisation and now, they do not include the unsocial hours payments (and others, such as 'mileage') that were earned before the grade was restructured to wrap all that up into a basic salary.

In neither case is like being measured with like.
Police it’s about an extra £1 per shift after 8PM……..
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Now the parent companies are issuing massive profits for the year.
If you are looking at First's £45m, that's about 1.2% of revenue - hardly massive.
It also includes one-off credit for the change in contracts (franchise-EMA-ERMA - notably for TPE).
Presumably in bad years a drop in pay would be appropriate? TPE and SWR have been heavily lossmaking in recent years.
 

Efini92

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Clarence Yard

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It really is no good just linking in the annual report if you don’t really understand what you are looking at. Headline figures for one year mean absolutely nothing.

Anyway, as I said before, the fact FG makes a profit on its activities doesn’t mean anything. They could be absolutely minting it and it wouldn’t make any difference - the DfT have the say on pay with all of their TOCs and they are, at the moment, not budging.
 

geoffk

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What would appear to need to happen is the threat of properly co-ordinated action that actually prevents the railway from being usable for months -
And I wonder what kind of railway we would have at the end of this. People in most of the UK will have learnt to live without trains and we could be seeing something like Serpell Mark II.
 

fgwrich

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It really is no good just linking in the annual report if you don’t really understand what you are looking at. Headline figures for one year mean absolutely nothing.

Anyway, as I said before, the fact FG makes a profit on its activities doesn’t mean anything. They could be absolutely minting it and it wouldn’t make any difference - the DfT have the say on pay with all of their TOCs and they are, at the moment, not budging.
Exactly this. It’s all very well people jumping up and down with the annual report, but unless Whitehall / Westminster changes it’s mind, very little will happen. Of course the figures for this year will go up, with the additions of the franchise cancellations, it will look like a profit has been made for this year, but that remains almost meaningless in the longer term.
 
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Actually a majority (over 55%) of Nurses are at Band 6 and above from last NHS Digital Stats with average earnings of just under £36,000.

Personally I think the Unions would be daft to do anything before the PRB announcements over next few weeks - that is the event that might unlock funding depending on what the outcome of those processes is. Doing anything before then is just throwing away income with no real prospect of change.
Thanks for this info of £36,000 average nurse earnings.
This compares with a train drivers average of £59,000 (Guardian 23/06/22). Thats 39% more.

How will the public accept the pay strike with that disparity in these 2 key public service industries?

Which of them will the public think most worthy of a large pay rise?
 

EZJ

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Train drivers aren't to blame for the awful wages nurse's get, I really wish people would stop comparing the two. Successive governments have screwed the NHS over not train drivers. Both are incredibly important and skilled jobs and the pay should be reflected accordingly.
 

O L Leigh

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NHS are paid too little (let’s not forget bands 1-4 in the NHS either. It’s appalling).

The parallel falls down too when you compare the differences in training and recruitment and the impact this has on staff retention.

The training process for nursing is long and self-funded, and there’s not much to shout about when you qualify. As a consequence, it’s not seen as much of a career choice which means that the NHS now has a dire shortage of nurses and needs to import a lot from overseas.

Compare and contrast with train driving where there will always be a job at the end of the training process and any tab is picked up by the company. Taken with a good salary, and the numbers who make train driving a whole-life career choice is dramatically different.

I’ve seen mention of “golden handcuffs” before which keep drivers from leaving the industry, but what gets missed is just how advantageous this is for the employers. A committed fully-competent workforce is the key to greater efficiency. The fewer drivers there are in training or learning routes and/or traction the fewer non-productive drivers you have and the fewer uncovered turns on the daily mark-up sheet.

Yes you could unshackle all these workers by attacking pay, but that’s looking at just one tiny part of the greater picture. If you want to see the impact this would have, take a look over at GA (don’t worry @dk1, some of us still remember where that is). I left there 10 years ago and now I barely recognise any of their drivers because a lot have left. The upshot of this is that any savings on the wage bill compared to other TOCs simply gets spent on recruitment and training all the replacements necessary.

So what’s better? A well-paid but committed and productive workforce or discontent and endless churn?
 
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Train drivers aren't to blame for the awful wages nurse's get, I really wish people would stop comparing the two. Successive governments have screwed the NHS over not train drivers. Both are incredibly important and skilled jobs and the pay should be reflected accordingly.
I wil put myself in the 'mind' of senior government politicians with an election coming up in the next 2 years.

"I have limited public money to grant pay rises with.

Which public workers should I be most generous to?

Which have been most needed & valued during the last 3 years?

Which will give my party more votes?"

I am trying to bring some realism to this debate.
 
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